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Raven Side Torsos - A Good Way To Increase Survivability, Or Are They Too Survivable?


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#1 Prosperity Park

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:46 PM

Here's an image showing the hitbox locations on a Raven, as provided by Rainbow Unikorn here
Posted Image

How do you feel about the Side Torsos creeping up as far as they do along the Raven's "beak?" It certainly increases survivability due to the fact that engaging a Raven with any kind of head-on cone causes a large amount of your Center-focused fire to be absorbed by the side torsos, and engaging side-on does not provide an easy shot at it's "nose" as if it were a Stalker, Dragon, or Catapult that can be easily CT'd from the side.

I personally think the Raven should be made squishier because the other Lights don't get this kind of damage-spread mechanism. I mean, look at the Jenner:

Posted Image

The Jenner gets no side-impact protection along it's centerline from side torsos at all, and they die easier than Ravens as a result. i think that the Raven's Side Torsos are giving it an undue-increased survivability, and the Side Torso hitboxes should be drawn back...

What do others think?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 March 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#2 Kdogg788

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:51 PM

It's an amazing difference and one I wasn't aware of not being a Raven driver. You're right, the CT profile should be consistent with other lights as well as the absolutely tiny head hit boxes.

-k

#3 Beadhanger

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

Well these things use xl engines...so i dont think the side torsos "absorb" the damage that should have been dealt to the ct....

Edited by Beadhanger, 02 March 2013 - 05:56 PM.


#4 0X2A

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:57 PM

With all the 3L cheese drops lately I've been dropping in my own 3L and AC/20 Cat. 3L is TOO survivable Imho.


View PostBeadhanger, on 02 March 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Well these things use xl engines...so i dont think the side torsos "absorb" the damage that should have been dealt to the ct....


It spreads the damage in a abrormal way. At point blank an Ac/20 round can hit the CT while the other hits the RT or LT.

Edited by 0X2A, 02 March 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#5 Kinilan

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:57 PM

I'd argue that this is really more of an advantage to the Jenner. You're never going to fit a 295 standard (or 300 in the JNRs carse) in a light and still have room for full armour let alone any sort of weapons systems. Lights NEED speed unless they are playing some sort of dedicated support but a medium would do that far more effectively. The only way they can get that speed is with an XL and we all know what happens when your side torso goes boom with an XL inside.

In any case it's probably best to wait for state rewind to be put in before light hitboxes get any sort of pass.

Should also point out that the basic tactic of all RVN-3L pilots when fighting another mech is to run around in a circle like some sort of...thing that runs in a circle. Which makes it easy to punch through the much softer side Torso instead of the center as when a Jenner circles.

Edited by Kinilan, 02 March 2013 - 06:00 PM.


#6 M4NTiC0R3X

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:58 PM

? It is damn near impossible to spread the damage across single components on a raven.... so when I turn to negate damage....
my side torso... and my center torso... and even usually strangely somehow my rear torso get's blown out from trying to negate damage in the little thing.
Not to mention the fact a fast light uses and XL engine.......... the periods could go on forever.. :P
(my point is that while everyone says a raven has more survivability... I think it's quite the opposite, and I have played the crap out of ravens and jenners)
You're saying the jenner has a big Center torso.... well thats good 'cos that's where most your armor is and it's easy for you to say hey..... i want all the damage on the right arm
a raven basically can't do that.

Personally, give the Jenner the same huge side torsos the raven has.... that's what I think. and sorry for the lack of organization.

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 02 March 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#7 Mackman

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:59 PM

That is super weird... I definitely agree, there seems to be no reason for such a huge difference in torso hitboxes.

#8 JohnoBurr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

The side torsos should be the parts that the arms are attached to and only that. Like that missile pod, that should be the side torso. Everything else should be the center torso. Just look at the Jenner. The hitboxes on the Raven should look the same.

Edited by JohnoBurr, 02 March 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#9 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostProsperity Park, on 02 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

The Jenner gets no side-impact protection along it's centerline from side torsos at all, and they die easier than Ravens as a result. i think that the Raven's Side Torsos are giving it an undue-increased survivability, and the Side Torso hitboxes should be drawn back...


The problem with this (and I'm not saying the STs on the Raven don't maybe need a little bit of paring back) is that it's part of the way the mechs are designed. You might as well say the Jenner has an advantage because it's smaller as a whole, and has smaller, less easy to remove, legs. It's a difficult place to start declaring things are unbalanced because it's very nebulous - 'how easy is it to hit' is not a universal numerical number - and you'll always get disagreements mostly aligned along which end of the gun you are.

#10 gavilatius

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:08 PM

Extend the hitboxes on the Raven

or drop the Engine Cap for the Raven chassis.

The raven is supposed to be a sneaking scout mech; sneak sneak sneak, find, tag, sneak out. It's not a runner. and that's why it has an ECM. A-la-3048 when higher engines were expensive.

The Jenner is a runner because the Jenner was built that way. A-La-2784, when Higher engines were cheaper.

150 for a Raven is ridiculous. And it's foreign to both Canon and common sense

#11 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:15 PM

View Postgavilatius, on 02 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

The raven is supposed to be a sneaking scout mech; sneak sneak sneak, find, tag, sneak out. It's not a runner. and that's why it has an ECM.


It's a recon and EWAR asset. Recon and EWAR do not exist in MWO, ergo it has to fight. To fight it has to fast. Never mind that 2/3 variants (which are too slow to be viable combat mechs) are designed as combat lights.

Additionally, it drops the speed for armour. Are we going to be reducing the armour cap on the Jenner?

#12 Glythe

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

Your Jenner hitbox is wrong. The head of the Jenner is actually in the middle of the center torso. See the whole part that sticks out from the middle of the mech? That's actually ALL head. Now the cockpit seems to be labeled correctly but the head is distinct from the center torso.

I posted two pictures below. Remember that if you are looking straight at the Jenner the center torso will only be visible above and below the head. The head will actually block you from shooting the center of the center torso.


The Raven hitbox is completely OP (even more so than the Jenner). You should have a very narrow up top cockpit and then all the side Orange sections should be moved all the way back to the missile box.

So it's supposed to be a sneaky mech but has hands down the best hitbox of ANY mech in the game? That's 1/2 of why it's broken.... the other half is the streak+ECM combo.


The commando has by far the worst hitbox of all the scouts. Even though it has ECM and streaks it is also the easiest to kill because all its hit locations make perfect sense and do not bleed into each other.

This is the Jenner's head

Posted Image


This is the Jenner's center Torso

Posted Image

Edited by Glythe, 02 March 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#13 Tennex

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:20 PM

3Ls have XL engines. i don't see why the hitbox is an issue.

#14 One Medic Army

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostKinilan, on 02 March 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

I'd argue that this is really more of an advantage to the Jenner. You're never going to fit a 295 standard (or 300 in the JNRs carse) in a light and still have room for full armour let alone any sort of weapons systems. Lights NEED speed unless they are playing some sort of dedicated support but a medium would do that far more effectively. The only way they can get that speed is with an XL and we all know what happens when your side torso goes boom with an XL inside.

It's a bit irrelevant when streaks hit my Jenner's front side torsos even when they're coming from behind me.
Ravens I have seen them standing pt blank in front of brawler atlases and come out barely injured, I'd have no problem if they'd actually take damage to those gigantic side torsos, but they don't.

Edited by One Medic Army, 02 March 2013 - 06:29 PM.


#15 JohnoBurr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 02 March 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Wtf are you even talking about.
My Jenners fit respectively:
Full armor+2xMPL+4xSL+295XL+5JJ
Full armor+2ML+2SL+2SRM4+280XL+5JJ
Full armor+4MPL+280XL+5JJ


Yes, those are all with XL engines. Notice he said you're never going to fit a 295 standard.

#16 Prosperity Park

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostTennex, on 02 March 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

3Ls have XL engines. i don't see why the hitbox is an issue.

The issue is this:

Say someone shoots a 40pt strike at your Jenner's centerline. It all goes to CT and you die (or at least 10pts of overflow damage to internals/engine).
In a Raven, you'll get ~ 25pts Ct and 15pts ST damage, which means you'll live (XL or not, you'll take no internal damage, on average).

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 March 2013 - 06:26 PM.


#17 Roland

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:25 PM

This is why shooting the side torsos is the best way to kill ravens.

#18 Gaan Cathal

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostGlythe, on 02 March 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

The "head" of the raven should not include the box in the low front between the legs. That portion of the mech wihtout question should be center torso.


That 'hip' box is center torso.

View PostRoland, on 02 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

This is why shooting the side torsos is the best way to kill ravens.


This. I die to loosing the side torsos more often than the CT, they're weaker and kill me just as dead, ergo the smart pilots aim for them (or my precious, spindly legs).

#19 Warrax the Chaos Warrior

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostM4NTiC0R3X, on 02 March 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

? It is damn near impossible to spread the damage across single components on a raven.... so when I turn to negate damage....
my side torso... and my center torso... and even usually strangely somehow my rear torso get's blown out from trying to negate damage in the little thing.
Not to mention the fact a fast light uses and XL engine.......... the periods could go on forever.. :P
(my point is that while everyone says a raven has more survivability... I think it's quite the opposite, and I have played the crap out of ravens and jenners)
You're saying the jenner has a big Center torso.... well thats good 'cos that's where most your armor is and it's easy for you to say hey..... i want all the damage on the right arm
a raven basically can't do that.

Personally, give the Jenner the same huge side torsos the raven has.... that's what I think. and sorry for the lack of organization.

You can hit a raven with one PPC, and have the damage somehow split between CT and a side torso. Those big sides should be a disadvantage, but they aren't because you can never focus on one spot.

Think of it from the side of the people shooting at you. You're running around like a loon through the whole enemy team just because you can, and you get crit CT. Someone lands a hit with a ballistic type weapon that should finish you off... but the damage is spread all over for no discernible reason.

Okay, maybe you personally don't drive that way, but there are a lot of baddies in Ravens that do drive like that.

#20 Taemien

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

By the hitbox it currently has, it seems like its pretty squishy as it is. Like everyone said before, the majority throw on XL engines. That one dude that doesn't will be uber survivable but also alot slower.

Interesting suggestion was made however. Make the ECM mechs cap out at a lower engine size. Right now out of all the Ravens the 3L has the largest engine capability. There's actually very little reason to use the 2X and 4X and that should be remedied. I think that if the ECM mechs couldn't go faster then it would make things a little more interesting.

I could even see a ECM mech not able to mount bigger engines than their stock engines (can mount standard or XL version of course).





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