121 replies to this topic

[Fuggles]

heres my thoughts but understand ive been saying that SRMs have been OP for a long time.

my anecdotal proof of that is to simply look at the popular mechs out there, alot of the popular or effective variants of a chassis are simply the ones with the most missle racks.

with the advent of the mech stats tracking it gave me the ability though to dig up some actual numbers and it becomes fairly obvious that SRMs were out of line compared to ballistics and energy weapons.

what i did and i suggest you do the same is look at damage done per weapon and consider damage per shot so you include accuracy and damage per heat. i didnt take into account damage per ton simply because most mechs are limited my slots, not tonnage as larger mechs have more slots and also more free tonnage. (larger miechs will simply mount more and larger versions of weapons)

SRMs are light weight (close to energy weapons). they require little ammo per launcher compared to balistics 1 ton per srm4/6 where as you want 3 tons of ammo per ballistic. low heat even including misses (on par with ballistics roughly 2 damage per heat including misses).

once you figure in accuracy and heat in i found that
medium lasers average 2.5 damage per shot (86% acc) for .62 damage / heat
large lasers 4.81 / shot (87% acc) .68 damage/heat
erppc 5.41/shot (53% acc, waste alot since no ammo) .49 damage/heat
SRMs 4/6 5.7/8.34 /salvo with misses (54%acc per missle) 1.9 damage/heat
ac10/gauss/ac20 6.1/9.4/13.8/shot ~63%acc 2.0 damage/heat (excluding gauss)

so you get weapons that have heat efficiency of ballistics with weight of energy weapons and higher damage per slot than energy weapons.

now, they reduced srm missle damage by 40%, (1.5 down from 2.5). Run the numbers and youll find srm 4 damage will effectivly be greater than a medium laser but less than a large laser. srm 6 will be greater than a large laser but less than a erppc. heat levels per damage will now about halfway in-between ballistics and energy.

now you can start to see SRMs fall in line with other weapons. higher damage than equivelant lasers to make up for the range and ammo limitation. better damage / heat than lasers but not so good that it matches ballistics wich have massive weight/slot imitation.

TL/DR: its hard to see balance through months of imbalance.

[qki]

so your entire argument is "it didn't happen because there are no screenshots"?

How many missiles do you think it took to kill a COM-1B (standard, 4 tons of armour)?

6. One shot with a standard SRM6 and the commie blew up.
Atlases with full armour dropping like nobody's buisness - I've had a max armour centurion loose a side torso to a single salvo from two LRM15s.


There is a thread somwhere with testing results, where people post data - find it, read it, and stop this silly "no U!" argument.



here is the test results thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ted-2013-03-15/


in some cases the SRMs are doing over 7 damage per missile. That's more than 3 times the intended damage.

Edited by qki, 23 March 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Your claiming SRMs were doing up to 7 times their original damage and needed to be nerfed. That means a single SRM-6 was doing up to 105 points of damage. A single SRM 6. But for some reason there are no screen shots or videos, and no recorded cases of absurdly high rates of damage done in any of the games to reflect this.

And now, the 40% nerf somehow fixed this. How? If the bug isn't fixed they are still doing up to 7 times their damage right? Even if it is 40% less, that is what? Instead of 105 we got 65 point Alphas from a single SRM-6? But somehow the problem was fixed?

And the evidence that the problem was fixed is people are no longer using missile boats. Hmmm, so basically, instead of wondering if the claim that they were doing 7 times their damage due to splash was even correct in the first place (in which case it would not be fixed by a 40% damage reduction) we are supposed to believe it was true because the 40% damage reduction "worked".

If the problem was insanely high splash which made missiles do up to 7 times their damage the 40% reduction in damage wouldn't have fixed a single thing.

[Fuggles]

you guys should seriously ignore damage posted between the latest patch and the latest hotfix. it was way out of line compared to pre patch. it was a bug, it was fixed promtly pretend it didnt happen as far as ballance is concered.

and as far as screen shots, i saw 1600+ damage from lrm boats and 1200+ damage from splat cats in the brief missle bug period. i actually had a match were 2 a1 splatties did 1200 damage each.

[HarmAssassin]

I've played 47 matches in a splat cat since stats were tracked by mech. My highest score in any one round was something like 1200 dmg. Firing 6 SRM6's, at 90 damage per volley at short range only (I only fire when under 50m so every missile hits), that's approximately 14 volleys per game. Each SRM6 did 15 pts x 6 = 90 pt alphas....

That's about right (I fired about that many)

If splash damage was multiplying my damage by 7, then I'd have had 7000 damage each of those rounds, which I did not. If splash damage was causing 7x the damage, then a single alpha from 6 SRM6's would have caused 630 dmg. That would kill any mech in the game with one shot... and didn't happen.

Splash damage doing 7 times normal damage is a myth. It was calculated on the training grounds where you don't know the stats of the mechs you're firing at. Also it is well known that stationary mechs take damage differently than moving mechs, but this too wasn't taken into account during the tests.

Although I don't, I do know people that played nothing but splatcats - and I've never seen them hit over 1500 damage in a round. AT 90 pts per volley (if all missiles hit), there's no way SRMs were doing 7 times stated damage.

One person's screwed up attempt to verify on the training grounds, led to a whole lot of people repeating a false conclusion.

Splash was screwed up for JENNERS and COMMANDOs only. Their hit locations were too close together and thus missiles were damaging every hit location. Splash DID NOT AFFECT anything larger.

The reason a Splatcat could take out a mech in a single hit (on rare occassion) was that they hit you in the back (and you neglected to put armor there), or they hit you in the HEAD at the very specific range in which all missiles converged, or you were hurt to begin with. SImple as that.

Unless you want every mech in the game to have 1 LRM, 1 SRM, 2 lasers, and 2 ACs.... then you have to allow people to specialize if they want to. If you don't want 6 of the same weapon on a mech, change the game to not allow it. But stop messing with the stats of each individual weapon when that's not the problem.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

According to the proof missiles were doing up to 7 times their intended damage. That means there were cases where a single SRM-6 did 105 damage. Does anyone even believe that ever happened? I mean come on.

[qki]

you don't understand. That was the "bug".

Because the hitboxes were different, with 4.0m splash radius, SRMs were doing the intended damage. But with more complex hitboxes, we got instances of SRM/LRM splash damage overlapping, to create multiple applications of the same damage.

As stated by PGI - simply removing splash damage resulted in most of the damage applying to CT, which wasn't any better, because the mech still cored, so the overal fix was to reduce splash and damage both.

And it worked - my 700 damage a match raven is now doing around 300 damage, with no change in play style (or effectiveness).

Also - a lot of that damage was superflous - extra damage that played no part in destroying the mech once you applied the damage to CT.


On a different note - in a recent game with my Atlas - 3 large lasers, gauss, 2 streak srms i did 600+ damage - got 5 kills and 2 assists. By comparison, a raven with 3 medium lasers, 2 streaks and no gauss doing 700 damage was waaaay out of line.


And let go of the 7x damage already - a drop from 700 to 300 damage is not by a factor of 7 - more like 60% drop.

And that's about right - as I said, my SRM4 (last SRM i used since the stats were implemented, and before the hotfix) clocked in at almost 5 damage per missile - nearly twice the intended 2.5.

Edited by qki, 23 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Fuggles]

if you honestly dont think that missles were bugged in the period between the latest content patch (19th) and the hotfix (21st), then you simply either didnt play or are dense.

[TOGSolid]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

So the missiles do 2,3,4,5,6,7(!!!!) times their damage, but for some strange, divine, mystical reason we can't find any screen shots of these ridiculously high points of damage being done in all the matches presented on video and screen shots. Don't worry everyone, the evidence is lying around....somewhere...I swear I've seen it! You know it's true then right guys? Right?? Geez, I wish I could prove things enough for people to spend resources on my ideas with evidence I swear I saw but can't reproduce and for some reason there are no signs of at all in any games.

I mean just because SRM-6s are doing 105 damage doesn't mean we should be seeing any signs of it. 15 x 7 = 105 damage being done wouldn't even be noticed. Let alone a Splatcat doing 600+ damage in a single strike.

...

There was an entire ******** thread about this with community done testing and a dev response where they agreed with our findings, why do you think this hotfix happened at all? I swear, thick as a brick doesn't begin to describe some of you people who post around here.

Quote

One person's screwed up attempt to verify on the training grounds, led to a whole lot of people repeating a false conclusion.

Splash was screwed up for JENNERS and COMMANDOs only.

Incorrect, there were issues with other mechs as well. The splash damage was causing serious issues due to the way it transfers across hitboxes.

SRMs are perfectly fine now. If I can walk up behind an Atlas and rip him apart in a couple volleys with 4 SRM6s then I highly doubt SRMs are weak. The problem is that so many of you are used to abusing the old SRMs that you're used to them being kinda OP so now that you've been knocked back to Earth you think that they're weak. That is hardly the case. Arguing that your A1 is underpowered because it's "only" doing 50-60 damage instead of 90 just makes you look like a ******.

Edited by TOGSolid, 23 March 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

The proof post said that each missile was doing the same damage as a Gauss Slug:

Quote

Streak SRM damage is amplified by 420 460 to 620% 660%against the Commando. Each missile does roughly the same damage as a Gauss slug, and this is from a fire-and-forget weapon weighing (with ammo) 2.5 tons. I am not making these numbers up. Try it yourself.

Do you really honestly expect me to believe a Streakcat was doing the same damage as 6 Gauss Rifles? If so, how does a 40% damage reduction fix this, wouldn't they still have the damage output of 3 Gauss Rifles?

And then according to that "Proof" Splatcats had the damage output of up to 18 Gauss Rifles. Yes- but it is unreasonable for me to expect any signs of this in gameplay videos.

[HarmAssassin]

The dev agreed that splash was a problem for Jenners and Commandos.. ONLY. All SRMs weren't doing massive damage, only SRMs fired at Jenners and Commandos.

Wow you people are dense.

Below I've pasted in my Splatcat stats. I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

If I were doing 7 times the stated damage (as some have falsely claimed), then I'd be killing every mech with a single volley, and would instead have a damage inflicted total (for 47 kills) of over 105,000 which you can see... I DON'T.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

So wow, my Streakcat still has the power of 3 Gauss Rifles. I'm gonna run with that!

And my Splatcat 9 Gauss Rifles, omfg!

[TOGSolid]

Quote

The dev agreed that splash was a problem for Jenners and Commandos.. ONLY. All SRMs weren't doing massive damage, only SRMs fired at Jenners and Commandos.

Wow you people are dense.

I'll be back in a minute with screen shots.

And newer mechs with the more complex geometry and that the splash damage was still causing issues everywhere with it amplifying when striking at a hitbox edge. Derp.

Edited by TOGSolid, 23 March 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

TOGSolid, on 23 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

And newer mechs with the more complex geometry and that the splash damage was still causing issues everywhere with it amplifying when striking at a hitbox edge. Derp.

From the "study"

Quote

Streak SRM damage is amplified by 420 460 to 620% 660%against the Commando. Each missile does roughly the same damage as a Gauss slug, and this is from a fire-and-forget weapon weighing (with ammo) 2.5 tons. I am not making these numbers up. Try it yourself.

An SRM-2 doing a Gauss Rifle worth of damage? Madness you say? I got teh stats!

[HarmAssassin]

Below I've pasted in my Splatcat stats. I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

If I were doing 7 times the stated damage (as some have falsely claimed), then I'd be killing every mech with a single volley, and would instead have a damage inflicted total (for 47 kills) of over 105,000 which you can see... I DON'T.



The stats you "deduced" on the training grounds, weren't accurate. If SRMs were doing the damage you claimed, then my 90 pt alpha would have been doing upwards of 600 damage and single-shot killing every mech I ever fired at.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Rubidiy]

well I played on my CN9-A, and new damage seems reasonable. I had no problems with SRM damage, although I still wait for a normal ballistic weapon tweaks which will let us use 'em in light or medium class mechs.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0515b5a62f2f638

[HarmAssassin]

Sorry, but your test results are full of crap.

[MasterErrant]

srms and streaks seem about right but lrms are almost useless again. I like cats a trebs but they are kinda bad right now.

[focuspark]

IMO SRM and LRM needed larger spreads, not lower damage. I think the devs muck'ed this one up.

[HarmAssassin]

Thontor, on 23 March 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Numbers don't lie

People misuse or misinterpret number all the time - you've done both.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 23 March 2013 - 01:40 PM.