87 replies to this topic

[ArmageddonKnight]

AC'2 have insane heat issues when used i n any usfull number. Like say 4 or more. ..but im just picking fault now lol

[raygun]

Jack Lazarus, on 11 April 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Pretty much everyone that comes to this forum is aware of damage penalties from overheating. What is being discussed in this thread is the idea of having a heat system that is more like how BattleTech is meant to be, with small penalties that start off very low on the heat scale and grow quickly as your heat escalates, rather than an 'all or nothing' system.

Well if thats the case i still severely disagree. Like its been mentioned, it would homogenize the amount of mechs and builds we see in the field. Combat would take forever and it penalizes a single weapon system way more than the other two. If you didnt know, heat capacity IS ammo for energy weapon systems. Not to mention the additional weapon balancing this would call for and there is already a system in place for running too hot. Ammo cooks, limbs blow off and the mech eventually blows up. Adding more penalties for simply using your heat capacity is a bad idea.

Edited by raygun, 11 April 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Diablobo]

I think we are overthinking this whole thing. PGI was just lazy. They thought the easiest way to keep people from overriding was to just make them go boom. Rather than doing any work and modeling the effects of overheating, they said "screw it, let's blow them up".

[Corbon Zackery]

You have to think of the heat scale as the bottom end of your mech automatically shuts down to prevent damage. You can override of course but you risk dmg and ammo blow.

[MustrumRidcully]

We probably should have that, but that would require the heat system not to be borked as it is already. Currently mechs only function somewhat reasonable and energy weapons are useable at all because we have a gigantic heat capacity without any ill effects untli you reach the end.

Of course, this causes its own problems - stuff like 6 PPC Stalkers that people dislike (though I am not really convinced they are OP). Overall it's all symptomatic of everyone trying to go for alpha builds that can stack up enough firepower to kill or severely hurt someone with 1 or 2 shots, and then cool of over the smoldering ruins of your enemy, because there is no real chance of building a heat efficient mech that can sustain its firepower. He will always be beaten by someone using up his heat capacity quickly to deliver rapid, non-sunstainable damage.

But maybe that's what the devs wanted to happen.

[Hotaru Tomoe]

I believe the dev's stated a long time ago that they were looking at including something along these lines. As it sits now, if you override a shutdown and go over the heat threshold, you start taking internal damage which can cause ammo explosion.

We should have a movement penalty at higher heat levels, maybe even a penalty to your weapon's recycle time. [the recycle time thing could essentially replace the accuracy penalty]

If the devs actually make the call to include a Cone of Fire for mechs [which would be a good way to abstract the "to hit" table from TT] then it could perhaps cause slower convergence speed's at higher heat values.

[jeffsw6]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

The other point against this... look how much time has been invested into weapon balancing, and it's still not there. Could you imagine throwing in a heat damage variable to every time you pulled the trigger after your first overheat?

I am not suggesting that. I think you should take damage when you overheat and go into shutdown. Perhaps this is a chance that one of the weapons you just fired will explode?

When some PPC-boating mech can alpha himself into overheat repeatedly, sit within ECM shield, and kill off your dumb PUG teammates without really risking anything, that is very frustrating. If he risked blowing up one of his weapons every time he over-heated, guess what, he would probably wait longer between strikes so he will not go into overheat.

[IceSerpent]

Khanublikhan, on 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Maybe a heat table, in isolation, is only part of the solution:

(Just some wild ideas).

• A coded limit on the maximum number of weapons that can be assigned into one weapon group.
  
• Remove the alpha strike ability.
  
• An XP and C-Bill reward for finishing a match *without* overheating. (I like this one!)

I think you should kinda step back and try to outline what exactly you are trying to achieve. In other words, what is the "problem" you are trying to solve?

Given that virtually every gaming mouse comes with macro capability these days, the first two of your "wild ideas" will be circumvented in 30 seconds flat. The 3rd one doesn't do anything due to the fact that only new players care about XP or C-bills, everybody else already has more than enough of both.

[Aklor]

jeffsw6, on 11 April 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

I think mechs should be damaged when they over-heat.

I killed myself on an overheat, yes I used the over ride.

[ArmageddonKnight]

the 2nd one can be done. bassicaly making it impossible to shoot mroe than X weapons off at the exact same time or within X ms or sec.

The 1st one yea ..i mean i already use a macro for my Ac2 jager so i can rapid fire without using the broken chain fire system currently inplace (for those that dont know.. AC2 has a 0.5sec cooldown ..the chain fire only shoots the next weapon after 0.5 seconds .making it usless for AC2's)

[Khanublikhan]

IceSerpent, on 11 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

I think you should kinda step back and try to outline what exactly you are trying to achieve. In other words, what is the "problem" you are trying to solve?

Given that virtually every gaming mouse comes with macro capability these days, the first two of your "wild ideas" will be circumvented in 30 seconds flat. The 3rd one doesn't do anything due to the fact that only new players care about XP or C-bills, everybody else already has more than enough of both.

Okay. I'll try and state what I meant with those suggestions (indeed they may have been bad suggestions).

• By limiting maximum number of weapons in one group, I was trying to suggest there would be a *pause* between pressing weapon group key 1 and weapon group key 2 (effecting accuracy in the pause, slightly greater opportunity to miss, benefitting the target and the game in general). You're right, I hadn't considered macro's via mouse / software.
  
• Removing alpha strike. Well sorta, I considered the in-built macro of MWO which allows you to fire all you've got. The alpha strike, 'teaches bad heat practice' and doing away with it might teach 'good heat practice'?
  
• An XP and C-Bill reward was an attempt to reward players who work expertly within the heat parameters of their mech, a 'Heat Expert' player if you will. And yes, new players in particular would benefit. Agreed. Is that necessarily bad?

(Also, XP and C-Bill rewards could be adjusted, dependent on how many XP and C-Bill awards there are in total)...

Edited by Khanublikhan, 11 April 2013 - 01:15 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Khanublikhan, on 11 April 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

• By limiting maximum number of weapons in one group, I was trying to suggest there would be a *pause* between pressing weapon group key 1 and weapon group key 2. You're right, I hadn't considered macro's via mouse / software.
  
• Removing alpha strike. Well sorta, I considered the in-built macro of MWO which allows you to fire all you've got.

So, basically you want to remove alpha strike capability? Why? All it will do is make large weapons better than small weapons - with 1s delay between shots 2 AC20s would deliver 40 pts of damage in 1s and 8 medium lasers would deliver 40 pts of damage in 7s. In other words, the more weapons you pack, the less eficient your build is.

Quote

• An XP and C-Bill reward was an attempt to reward players who work expertly within the heat parameters of their mech, a 'Heat Expert' player if you will. And yes, new players in particular would benefit. Agreed. Is that necessarily bad?

It's not bad, but if you simply want to give something to new players, why not just give something to new players? A bigger cadet bonus or something. Your suggestion just seems like a very backwards way of doing it - veterans who are "heat experts" won't care about the reward and rookies who will care about the reward are not "heat experts" yet (not to mention that rookies that are still using trial mechs simply can't stay heat-neutral and be even remotely effective on the battlefield).

[Trauglodyte]

The pro

MustrumRidcully, on 11 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

We probably should have that, but that would require the heat system not to be borked as it is already. Currently mechs only function somewhat reasonable and energy weapons are useable at all because we have a gigantic heat capacity without any ill effects untli you reach the end.

Of course, this causes its own problems - stuff like 6 PPC Stalkers that people dislike (though I am not really convinced they are OP). Overall it's all symptomatic of everyone trying to go for alpha builds that can stack up enough firepower to kill or severely hurt someone with 1 or 2 shots, and then cool of over the smoldering ruins of your enemy, because there is no real chance of building a heat efficient mech that can sustain its firepower. He will always be beaten by someone using up his heat capacity quickly to deliver rapid, non-sunstainable damage.

But maybe that's what the devs wanted to happen.

The problem really stems from teh fact that weapon recycle times are based around a 4s loop while heat sinks cool at a 10s loop. The TT heat scale followed the 10s combat and cooling cycle so it penalized you for any residual heat after the 10s was up. As things don't line up in MW:O, you've got to come up with another way. There aren't many mech builds where, even if you don't alpha, you don't exceed at least 25-30% heat percentage. So, the TT penalty hit marks wouldn't work.

[Khanublikhan]

Trauglodyte, on 11 April 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

The problem really stems from teh fact that weapon recycle times are based around a 4s loop while heat sinks cool at a 10s loop. The TT heat scale followed the 10s combat and cooling cycle so it penalized you for any residual heat after the 10s was up. As things don't line up in MW:O, you've got to come up with another way. There aren't many mech builds where, even if you don't alpha, you don't exceed at least 25-30% heat percentage. So, the TT penalty hit marks wouldn't work.

So the scale is off mathematically, to the detriment of the player. *nods*. So... the points on the scale, where penalties are introduced, would need to be examined mathematically too. Just restating, to make sure I understood you correctly.

Edited by Khanublikhan, 11 April 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Inyc]

Maliconus, on 11 April 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

All i have to say is "Yes" there should be heat penilties.

There are heat penalties. You can't move or shoot anymore, which lets whoever you were fighting blast you with impunity, usually resulting in death or severe loss of armor.

[KitK]

Interestingly, I've recently worked on this. My sense from posts and interviews is that they are happy with heat as it is for the moment. Either way they have bigger fish to fry. The desire for heat and walking in water effects comes up often enough. I like the idea and would like to see it implemented sometime down the road, perhaps 1 effect at a time. But one does have to deviate from the TT chart, we can't have powered up assault mechs that can't move at all because of heat. Accuracy has to remain skill based. And, we don't want ammo going off randomly with out a genuine overheat per the current mechanic, if at all.

If I've managed to make sense of the heat scale in MWO, here is what I think it looks like along side the TT chart for a basic 250 engine with SHS. Plus a few suggestions I was toying around with.


For fun here is a 17 DHS example

Edited by KitK, 11 April 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Khanublikhan, on 11 April 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

So the scale is off mathematically, to the detriment of the player. *nods*. So... the points on the scale, where penalties are introduced, would need to be examined mathematically too. Just restating, to make sure I understood you correctly.

Exactly. We're running roughly 2 combat cycles to 1 cooling cycle. The longest recharging weapon in game is currently the LRM20 at 4.75s seconds. But heat sinks cool at a rate of 1 heat or 2 heat dissipated every 10 seconds. On top of that, TT assumed that everyone would have 30 heat max and only 30 heat where as in MW:O everyone has 30 heat base plus another 1 per SHS/ 2 per DHS on top of the base 10 in the engine.

That isn't to say that this isn't applicable. But PGI would first need to boost DHSs to an actual 2.0 value but even that wouldn't allow for the basic table to be put in play. You can mess with HUD flicker as you get hotter and I think a lot of people would be fine with that. But you actually wouldn't be able to add movement or dissipation penalties until after you've exceeded 50%. And that 50% is subject to change based on each individual build (see above). Again, that isn't to say that this couldn't be added but it would need a ton of testing and they'd have to be really careful with it.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 11 April 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[shabowie]

aniviron, on 11 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Worked great in canon, wouldn't work so well in MWO without a major weapon rebalance. Heat table really comes into effect after a lot of prolonged firing on most builds in TT; but given the comparatively high fire rates and low dissipation rates coupled with fairly low heat capacities, you are going to see a lot of problems. These movement penalties begin to kick in after just one or two shots in most builds with any energy weapons larger than a small laser in MWO, which would turn this game into a molasses simulator.

You would need to have the heat from weapons fire absorb into the mech over time just as its dissipated over time, leading to lower waste levels. Dissipation would need to be bumped up as well. Dramatically.

Edited by shabowie, 11 April 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Ugg]

Trauglodyte, on 11 April 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Exactly. We're running roughly 2 combat cycles to 1 cooling cycle. The longest recharging weapon in game is currently the LRM20 at 4.75s seconds. But heat sinks cool at a rate of 1 heat or 2 heat dissipated every 10 seconds. On top of that, TT assumed that everyone would have 30 heat max and only 30 heat where as in MW:O everyone has 30 heat base plus another 1 per SHS/ 2 per DHS on top of the base 10 in the engine.

That isn't to say that this isn't applicable. But PGI would first need to boost DHSs to an actual 2.0 value but even that wouldn't allow for the basic table to be put in play. You can mess with HUD flicker as you get hotter and I think a lot of people would be fine with that. But you actually wouldn't be able to add movement or dissipation penalties until after you've exceeded 50%. And that 50% is subject to change based on each individual build (see above). Again, that isn't to say that this couldn't be added but it would need a ton of testing and they'd have to be really careful with it.

I agree with this assessment.
I would prefer real effects from heat, but like you suggest at this point I would be satisfied with cosmetic effects that have no real impact on game-play, like a flickering HUD.

Edited by Ugg, 11 April 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Something else to note, what I'd like to see is this:

• -1% speed per 10% heat build up; -5% speed per shut down
  
• -3% heat dissipation penalty per 10% heat build up; -15% heat dissipation per shut down
  
• incremental HUD shake as heat increases; fixed HUD shake per shut down

The penalties for building heat wouldn't be awful as you play but would be very damaging if you were to shut down. This would also had creedance for use of Coolant Flush which is why it was originally intended.

As for people saying that mechs boating energy weapons would be unduely penalized, this goes back to boosting DHSs to their true 2.0 value on top of forcing players to not max out their weapon builds like we can, currently. There is a distinct reason why 6 PPC builds are ******** and why mechs like the Supernova (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/supernova) are built around 26 DHSs so that they remain useful. BTW, this would also add a back handed nerf for idiots that like to alpha a lot while still maintaining realism (I know, realism with giant walking tanks of destruction in space) and teaching people to adjust their firing habits.