87 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

This is the BT heat effect table:

5 heat: -1 movement points
8: +1 modifier to fire
10: -2 movement points
13: +2 modifier to fire
14: shutdown, avoid on 4+
15: -3 movement points
17: +3 modifier to fire
18: shutdown, avoid on 6+
19: ammo explosion, avoid on 4+
20: -4 movement points
22: shutdown, avoid on 8+
23: ammo explosion, avoid on 6+
24: +4 modifier to fire
25: -5 movement points
26: shutdown, avoid on 10+
28: ammo explosion, avoid on 8+
30: shutdown

As you can see there are four effects:
1. movement penalties
2. aiming penalties
3. shutdowns
4. ammo explosions

Of those, aiming penalties wouldn't be well received in MWO (although I think it could be done gracefully, with visual effects like fogging or heat shimmering), shutdowns and ammo explosions are already in, so that leaves movement penalties.

Not a bad idea to make a 'mech move slower the hotter it gets (first movement penalty is at 5 heat out of 30, or about 15%).

All in all, I think I'm in favour of the idea.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Individual weapon heat would help.

So the weapons shutdown/get damaged but the mech is still mobile.

Or both mech heat AND weapon heat.
A single weapon overheating would add to overall mech heat, loads of weapons overheating would then cause overall mech overheating.

As for effects, well the actual mech overheating ..u could have some kind of cokcpit effect where the excess heat effects the pilot..blured vision maybe ..or some such. Lowered speed is deffinatly a good one as IRL when things, egines in particular , overheat ..u can cause things to seize up.

[hammerreborn]

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Eh, I dunno.... because things like PPC snipers would still be viable, even with heat penalities.. as long as they stayed at range.

Certainly, various AC's would become more useful as well.

Not if there's accuracy penalties.

[Roland]

aniviron, on 11 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Worked great in canon, wouldn't work so well in MWO without a major weapon rebalance. Heat table really comes into effect after a lot of prolonged firing on most builds in TT; but given the comparatively high fire rates and low dissipation rates coupled with fairly low heat capacities, you are going to see a lot of problems. These movement penalties begin to kick in after just one or two shots in most builds with any energy weapons larger than a small laser in MWO, which would turn this game into a molasses simulator.

The worst part is, this is all taking into account players using optimized mechs with DHS and 1.3+ heat eff. Those trial mechs are going to become walking suicide boxes.

This is a very good point... the way heat is dealt with would need a significant overhaul, or heat penalities would have to only kick in after a certain period of time (like, you'd only suffer the heat penalties if you kept your heat up above a certain threshold for 10 seconds or something).

[Khanublikhan]

Individual weapon heat. Interesting.

Do you see the recharge time of a weapon as fair game, as an expression of heat - or is it simply a reload time?

[Davers]

A heat system like the TT one will still keep high alpha builds viable, won't effect SSRMs, SRMs, or gauss. But it will effect mechs that need to fire lots of smaller energy weapons (or one large energy weapon) repeatedly to do damage. So we end up with PPC Stalkers and dual AC/20 Jagermechs that can kill in one or 2 alphas being fine, and Hunchbacks, Trebuchets, and Cicadas being nerfed.

[Balsover]

This is where I see MWO as being in trouble. They have moved so far from TT, an already balanced system, that we are seeing massive balance changes every time one thing is altered.

You make a few concessions here or there, and all of a sudden every new piece doesn't fit quite right. Meaning more "minor" changes... and the cycles continues until it falls apart.

[ArmageddonKnight]

I see weapons having a reload/recharge time like now + a smaller bar underneath of next to it indicating heat.

So it would not replace the cooldown bar. .it would be in addtion to.

maybe with an adittional toggle tab on each weapon to turn on auto weapon shutodwn at X % heat ..or turn it of so u can controll when u stop using a wepaon manualy.

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 11 April 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Ugg]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

.
.
.
As you can see there are four effects:
1. movement penalties
2. aiming penalties
3. shutdowns
4. ammo explosions

Of those, aiming penalties wouldn't be well received in MWO (although I think it could be done gracefully, with visual effects like fogging or heat shimmering), shutdowns and ammo explosions are already in, so that leaves movement penalties.

Not a bad idea to make a 'mech move slower the hotter it gets (first movement penalty is at 5 heat out of 30, or about 15%).

All in all, I think I'm in favour of the idea.

MWO version:
1 - xx% speed reduction
2 - torso twist speed reduction, arm movement slowed, turning radius increased.
3 - shutdown
4 - BOOM!

[Captain Stiffy]

asdf

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 11 April 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Diablobo]

Triple heat TT is no fun. We have triple the firing rates with no increase in heat dissipation. To even consider using something like the heat penalty rules of BT, MWO would have to increase heat dissipation. Of course, that would allow the designing of mechs that never overheat, and for some reason, PGI thinks that that would be no fun.

[Balsover]

Davers, on 11 April 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

A heat system like the TT one will still keep high alpha builds viable, won't effect SSRMs, SRMs, or gauss. But it will effect mechs that need to fire lots of smaller energy weapons (or one large energy weapon) repeatedly to do damage. So we end up with PPC Stalkers and dual AC/20 Jagermechs that can kill in one or 2 alphas being fine, and Hunchbacks, Trebuchets, and Cicadas being nerfed.

It would require heat going back to normal TT values also. A mech with 30 heat sinks should be able to fire 3 PPC's while maintaining a zero heat balance.

[Ugg]

Roland, on 11 April 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

This is a very good point... the way heat is dealt with would need a significant overhaul, or heat penalities would have to only kick in after a certain period of time (like, you'd only suffer the heat penalties if you kept your heat up above a certain threshold for 10 seconds or something).

Agree.

[Davers]

Diablobo, on 11 April 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Triple heat TT is no fun. We have triple the firing rates with no increase in heat dissipation. To even consider using something like the heat penalty rules of BT, MWO would have to increase heat dissipation. Of course, that would allow the designing of mechs that never overheat, and for some reason, PGI thinks that that would be no fun.

Not 'no fun'. Just not balanced. A good build that never overheated would totally outclass every other build. It would be the only viable build to ever run.

[Khanublikhan]

Maybe a heat table, in isolation, is only part of the solution:

(Just some wild ideas).

• A coded limit on the maximum number of weapons that can be assigned into one weapon group.
  
• Remove the alpha strike ability.
  
• An XP and C-Bill reward for finishing a match *without* overheating. (I like this one!)

[Diablobo]

Trying to modify TT heat penalties to fit in this asinine heat system would require the removal of mech destruction through overheating, and for some reason, PGI just loves to Stackpole. Having mechs with no ammo blow up is ridiculous, but then again, so are the heat dissipation rates.

[Khanublikhan]

Ugg, on 11 April 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

MWO version:
1 - xx% speed reduction
2 - torso twist speed reduction, arm movement slowed, turning radius increased.
3 - shutdown
4 - BOOM!

I like that Ugg! Thank you for stating with clarity, what needed to be said.

[Vasces Diablo]

I don't believe this for a second, but lets just get it out of the way....

"OMG!!!! PGI putting in heat penalties so you HAVE to buy OP MC coolant flush to win. This game is soooooo P2W!!!!"

Okay, we good?


The more I think about this (and remember from TT) the more I'm in favor of this. The main advantage to the weight and ammo requirement of ballistics is the lack of heat. With the elevated number of weapon firing in MWO vs TT, the infinite firing capability if lasers out weighs the advantages of balistics somewhat. Heat penalties would make ACs and "a certain small caliber" weapon more valuable.

[Ugg]

Vasces Diablo, on 11 April 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I don't believe this for a second, but lets just get it out of the way....

"OMG!!!! PGI putting in heat penalties so you HAVE to buy OP MC coolant flush to win. This game is soooooo P2W!!!!"

Okay, we good?


The more I think about this (and remember from TT) the more I'm in favor of this. The main advantage to the weight and ammo requirement of ballistics is the lack of heat. With the elevated number of weapon firing in MWO vs TT, the infinite firing capability if lasers out weighs the advantages of balistics somewhat. Heat penalties would make ACs and "a certain small caliber" weapon more valuable.

Eureka!

They still have to rework heat though.

edit: OH and YES it would make their c r a p module better... oh well.

Edited by Ugg, 11 April 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Diablobo]

Davers, on 11 April 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Not 'no fun'. Just not balanced. A good build that never overheated would totally outclass every other build. It would be the only viable build to ever run.

Balance is out the window with the mechlab as it is. Do you mean to tell me that the goal of "balance" is to make a Cicada with MGs just as viable as the rest with lasers?
NO.
Let the kiddies have their lulz with the MGs and and Flamers while the rest of us that know how to design mechs blow them away.