342 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

Please comment below with the following:

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
  
• Any additional comments or concerns.

[jakucha]

From what I've played 3rd person is inferior to first person. I'm okay if you keep it this way. Will help new players learn about torso-twisting etc. but won't hold up aim-wise to first person.

[Exoth3rmic]

Tested it. Did your feedback thread. Hated it. Worth me saying it as wasn't an option in your poll to say just how much I disliked it.

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test? Jenner
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view? Remove the convergence "snapping" of the reticule.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 01 August 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Moogles]

As someone who was vehemently opposed to Third Person in any form, and has just completed a match using it; I see no major issues with this. The amount that you can see, due to the FoV settings, is almost the same as your cockpit.

If you leave it with the enemy targetting display off, mini-map/radar off, and keep everything as-is, I'd gladly play with people using it exclusively. It seems to provide no major advantage, if not gimping yourself a bit.

[Zeus X]

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
Jenner, 3D, Highlander, Atlas, and BJ.

What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
None, it doesn’t need to be implemented, I can see incoming mechs before they can see me, jump sniping is easier.


Any additional comments or concerns.
3PV should have never even remotely been a thought process.

[Exoth3rmic]

Moogles, on 01 August 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

The amount that you can see, due to the FoV settings, is almost the same as your cockpit.

It isn't.





Edit: Below Moogles points out that i'm at 3x zoom in one of the pics - i'm at 3x in BOTH the pics. I also later post more pics of the same position at 1x zoom. There's a substantial FOV difference, they are not "Almost" the same.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 01 August 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Evax]

Why are the 2x exp bonus and "Hard Core" modes in this UI?...Don't tell me UI 2.0 is so borked that you have to have this UI fixed by another team while UI 2.0 is being developed?

Edited by Evax, 01 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[wickwire]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?

Cataphract, Dragon

• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?

None actually, it seems more balanced then I thought honestly, see below for why.

• Any additional comments or concerns.

I like that you removed the Minimap from 3PV. That immediately said "balance" to me. The blinking camera drones help that matter, too (plus they're cute). It was nice to be able to see my mech's paint.

That being said, in my opinion 3PV players are actually handicapped. And that is a good thing. For me, it was harder to aim, and I'm shooting quite a few rocks from behind cover.

So in conclusion, everything went better than expected: 3PV is a nice help for new players, but 1PV is where the meat is. Good job, PGI, I like it (also that you let us test this)!

Edited by wickwire, 01 August 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[ManDaisy]

Quickdraw, DEATH KNELL, ATLAS

Advantages:

1)SIGNIFICANT SITUATIONAL AWARENESS INCREASE,

1)Time it takes to see whats happening around you is drastically shortened,
2) You can see the angle of fire comming at your rear and front letting you know where your enemies are
3) Dodging lasers is much easier because you can see the vicinity of them around your mech
4) Mechs on cliffs above you are spotted MUCH MUCH MUCH easier
5) ARM shielding is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier due to this

6) JUMP FIGHTING AND JUMP SHAKE BECOME NEGLIABLE FOR ANIME HOP CLOSE RANGE FIGHTING

7) LIGHT MECHS LOSE THEIR SAFE DISTANCE WHERE BLIND SPOTS ARE TOTALLY ELIMINATED NEAR THE BASE OF TALL MECHS

8) 3RD PERSON WILL BE ABUSED AND BECOME PRIMARY WITH 1ST PERSON ONLY BEING DONE TO CHECK THE HUD. LOCK MODE AT START AND DON'T ALLOW SWITCHING

BATTLE GRID POPS UP IN AN INSTANT NO REASON TO USE 1st PERSON AT ALL!
You GET SEISMIC AND A BIGGER VIEW. NO NEED FOR MINIMAP!

9) EXPLOITING BLIND SPOTS OF OTHER MECHS MUCH EASIER DUE TO INCREASED VISION RANGE AND DISTANCE MEASUREMENT FROM 3RD PERSON VIEW (FIGHTING JAgermech, I stayed in his side arch the whole time, it was easy as hell!)

With DEATH KNELL I essentially was able to use 1 enemy assault to block the line of sight from the another while shooting at its rear, then I just moved a step cause I could SEE WHERE THE DUDE WAS AIMING BASED ON HIS MECH POSITIONING AND POSTURE! WAY TO EASY TO DODGE.


10) AIMING.... AIMING IS WAY WAY WAY TOO EASY. I COULD SHOOT A KNAT (jenner) Out of the sky at the flick of a dollar! YOUR VIEW IS JUST SOO MUCH BIGGER.

11) FLOATING DRONE WAS A COMPLETE JOKE ESPECIALLY ON SMALL MECHS

CONS:

1) Could not see legs in atlas.
2) Game Converts into 100% arcady feeling, GOODBYE simulation!

HOW TO FIX: REPLACE THE FLOATING DRONE WITH A GIANT FLOATING CHEESE

Edited by ManDaisy, 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[AndyHill]

Sorry, I don't get it. You told us you'd implement this system to help newbies understand the orientation of legs and torso, but give no tactical advantage.

Well, predictably it does give a huge tactical benefit when you can see from a view far above your 'mech. That was expected. But...

...I CAN'T SEE MY LEGS! Just how is that supposed to help me orient legs and torso?

And as an icing on the cake an incredibly dumb looking blinking drone above any 'mech using the 3rd person view. But that was too much, I almost believed it wasn't a late April fools troll until I saw the light. The pink light hovering above 'mechs.

Edit: Ok, on some 'mechs you can see the legs a bit if you point the camera low enough. But still, orientation is more difficult than in 1st person.

Edited by AndyHill, 01 August 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Ras187]

standing at the crater egde in gaustic in u jenner, u can see down in the bowl and see everything that moves,

and as poptart jump sniper u can use it to see where u targets are before u jump,,, its just a to big of a game changer,

I REALLY DONT LIKE THIS, u are taking the skill out of the game and making it WAY to easy...

Edited by Ras187, 01 August 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[Iron Hyena]

Since you can shoot the drone down, and it shows your exact view, you CANNOT use third person to peek over buildings without being shot down.

The drone is easy to see, even in the frozen city blizzard.

[Moogles]

Exoth3rmic, on 01 August 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

It isn't.

You're also at 3x zoom in your cockpit shot.

Try harder

[Dr Killinger]

I'll update as the test goes on, but my PC had a CATASTROPHIC crash early on. Looks like graphics drivers crashed and couldn't recover. Nvidia 314.22 on a GTX470.

Also had a crash to mechlab on my 4th try or so. Haven't seen those in some time. Mechw as not locked in game.

Initial thoughts: it disorients the hell out of me. I'd say move the camera down and to the left/right, just to help see the legs and give less of a hill-peeking advantage.

That said, having no map is GREAT for balancing. Make people pay for peeking. I'd probably make it fade-in once you change back to 1PV, just so that it's not as easy to quickly switch back and check, but overall I LOVE this choice by the devs.

Also, 12v12 is great!

Mechs I dropped in:

Trebuchet (brawler)

In this mech, I felt I had an advantage when trying to get the drop on heavies and assaults in canyon. I could simply stop, peek around the corner, and gauge the threat. Big advantage. Don't want to tango with those big guys when you're light. Will be a major boon to smaller mechs.

Cataphract (medium range gunboat)

Ok, I can see this guy's legs. Not disorientating. 3PV helped me peek around corners, giving me the ability to make better decisions, BUT- once I got into the tunnel and face-hugging levels of brawling, it was waaaaay too disorientating. I had to switch back to 1PV (BTW I like how it snaps to cockpit when you're up against something, no clipping for me yet!)

My playtime ended with 3 games actually played in 2 hours. Yay for Africa.

Other thoughts:
Battlegrid is too accessible. Zoom is also pretty useless, just makes your back get in the way. I'm Ok with that, thought. As a brawler, it was a minor advantage until things got really close, then the camera was all over the place and, without the minimap, I had no idea what's going on. Not a bad thing, just weighing in. Found myself wanting to go back to 1PV after 3 matches. If my internet were half reliable. 12v12 is nice.

tl;dr: I don't want 3PV, but if you HAVE to implement it... do it like this. Well done.

EDIT: I don't know what happened, but I burned through exponentially more data than I usually do with MWO. Like, five times as much, if not more. This is a major concern for us with data caps.

Edited by Dr Killinger, 01 August 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[MercJ]

Have tested so far with a Stalker and Awesome (EDIT: Also, Cataphract, Cicada, Jenner). Agreed with it provides very little advantage, if anything I felt it decreased my ability to aim and navigate around obstacles (I couldn't see my "feet"). On the "helping with legs/torso orientation" question, if that is one of the purposes of this you may have to back the drone up a bit to actually see legs (haven't tested it on smaller mechs yet (EDIT: zoom level here is about perfect). It wasn't much of an issue for me in the first place, I thought it was easier to pilot in first person anyway. Overall: I think it's a decent addition, and probably a far better implementation than most people thought.

Some suggestions/thoughts:
- Make the camera drone bigger, with a brighter flashing light perhaps? You should have to think harder about "giving your position away." I like the drone though! Very cool idea.
- Even less information displayed on the HUD would be cool with me as well. Speed only perhaps? Changing weapon groupings should only be possible "in the cockpit"...but this isn't a huge issue regardless.
- Make the "camera drone deploying" more of a process - it shouldn't be a quick, switchable view. Make it last maybe a second or two longer? Would need more testing to find an ideal time.
- Don't allow zoom in 3PV - almost useless anyway, I just saw shoulders when I tried it in an AWS

Thank you for letting us test this!!!

(The zoom level on lights/mediums is about right, the larger mechs it is a little too close.)

Remember, you're not supposed to have an advantage in this mode...I think it makes perfect sense to get rid of most of the HUD, and thank you especially for removing the minimap! Most of your information should be in the cockpit of your mech - missile warnings, damage direction, etc.

Edited by MercJ, 01 August 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[xengk]

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
Blackjack, Stalker, Awesome, Centurion

What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?
See below

Any additional comments or concerns.
Pretty much as I have imagined, although the range is much further.

Spoiler

Make 1PV and 3PV useful for different situations.

Currently 1PV tunnels the player's vision forward with virtually limitless range, with HUD to display damage direction.
This mode is more suited for snipers, alpha build but not brawler.

Make it so that 3PV benefits brawler but not sniper.
Remove damage direction, from this mode and let player depend on visuals. i:e angle of the incoming shots or missile.

The view range need also be to shorten.
They still benefit from having a view of their sides and "rear view mirror", but cannot maximize the use of long range weapon such as PPC, Gauss, LL/ERLL and LRM.
They can still lock on target shared by their teammates beyond their view range, with an indicator pointing to the direction of the target.

Here are some suggestion for view range.

3PV is good for brawling but snipping lost accuracy, the crosshair jitter more when aiming and moving compare to 1PV. Probably due to weapon converge.
My dual AC2 Blackjack can't hit anything and dies with only 100+ damage.
Meanwhile my AC20 Blackjack is performing better due to better view for jump jet maneuver.

One concern is the camera drone giving away player position, due to the flashing red light you can see them at distance.
Also the drone float few meters above the mech, there are situation where I can tell there are mech behind a wall from the number of floating camera above the wall
Either remove the drone or make it invisible/hard to see.

When jump jetting over a mech, the camera will zoom closer to my back as I pass over the mech and immediately zoom out to normal range. Caught me by surprise the first, now getting used to it.

Missile and PPC now look like toothpick.

Stalker's torso is so large it is blocking the view to it's legs.

Attach screen just because.

Spoiler

No Zoom



3x Zoom

Edited by xengk, 01 August 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[101011]

xengk, on 01 August 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

One concern is the floating camera giving away player position, due to the flashing red light you can see them at distance.
Also the camera float few meters above the mech, there are situation where I can tell there are mech behind a wall from the number of floating camera above the wall

That's why the cameras are there...

[Zeus X]

If 3PV is to be implemented, then it needs to stay in Training grounds, or really doesn't need to be implemented.

With my FOV at 80 I can see way more battlefield, and incoming mechs.

Get proper training grounds going for new people and stop trying to force a very much detested 3PV down our throats.

[TexAce]

Dornhal, on 01 August 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Since you can shoot the drone down, and it shows your exact view, you CANNOT use third person to peek over buildings without being shot down.

The drone is easy to see, even in the frozen city blizzard.

I cant test bcs Im away

Did they really use my hovering-behind-mech-camera-drone idea for the 3PV I posted a year ago? Is it even shootable?!
If so....my god, they listened. They finally listened.

Edited by TexAss, 01 August 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[MercJ]

Just to reiterate (strongly) - I'm VERY glad that the drone gives your position away in most circumstances, in fact I think this is one of the best things about it. If anything, make it bigger. This is a great implementation and in-game / "realistic" reason for how you can see your mech. A personal UAV type thing, if you will. The choice of 3PV actually gives you something else to consider - do I want to see more while giving away my position? I love these types of considerations and choices.

EDIT: Also want to re-iterate another interesting choice from my initial post - make the 3PV drone actually deploy out of your mech, and make this a process that lasts a few seconds! That way you can't just flip between the views at your leisure, it makes it a strategic choice with tradeoffs and consequences.

Edited by MercJ, 01 August 2013 - 11:21 AM.