90 replies to this topic

[Asakara]

Back in April when there was only 8 vs 8 PGI said this:

http://mwomercs.com/...ted-april-19th/

fact: About 74% of games kicked off are within what we consider tolerable weight matching limits (the difference between a heavy vs. assault Mech on the opposing team). Of the remaining 26% of matches, about 7% are what we would call "horrendously bad" (i.e., they carry the weight difference of one or two full assault Mechs between teams).

They then followed up with this:

In my last post, I shared a statistic: That 74% of our matches were within “tolerable” weight balance. When we started matching with the blue curve, that number spiked to 88%. Beyond that, less than 2% of our matches now fall into the “horrendously bad” category we described earlier – that’s down from the over-7-percent number it was before. The difference in Elo for most matches produced is also is less than half of what it used to be.


On June 1st I made a thread pointing out, that at least for my friends and I, their numbers and our reality did not add up:

http://mwomercs.com/...54#entry2408854


So here we are almost 4 months later (from June 1st) with 12 v 12s. The forces on each team have increased by around 33%. I wonder how matchmaker is doing these days? After all, back then PGI stated that only 2%!!! of the matches had what they called "horrendously bad" weight balancing.

Originally they used these parameters:

Balancing............Tonnage Difference
Tolerable............ 5 to 40
Not-Tolerable..... 45 to 75
Horrendously Bad 80 to 200

With 33% more mechs on a team it seems to me that it would make sense to expand their parameters by 33%. By doing that we get these parameters:

Balancing..............Tonnage Difference
Tolerable.............. 6.65 to 53.2
Not-Tolerable....... 59.85 to 99.75
Horrendously Bad 106.4 to 266

If one side has up to a Centurion more in tonnage (in weapons, armor, engine power, etc...) than the other team the match weight balancing is considered "Tolerable".

If one side has an extra Dragon to Highlander (almost an Atlas) in tonnage over the other side then the match weight balancing is considered "Not-Tolerable".

If one side has more than an Atlas to 2 Atlai + a Dragon in tonnage over the other side the match weight balancing is considered "Horrendously Bad".


Now, over Friday evening, Saturday, and Sunday I played 59 matches. In all cases I was in a group with 1 to 3 other people. In most, but not all, cases I was in a Jenner. Sometimes my friends were in lights with me.. Sometimes they were not. Wins and losses are irrelevant. Let's see how the matchmaker did:


*If a tonnage difference was on-the-line or between parameters I counted it as a more balanced rating (i.e. I count a difference of 105 as Not-Tolerable as opposed to Horrendously Bad)


Of the 59 matches, using the expanded (un-official) parameters above, we find:

29 (49.15%) were "Tolerable"
17 (28.81%) were "Not-Tolerable"
13 (22.03%) were "Horrendously Bad"

Though this is not as horrendously bad as when I posted back in June, it is still not tolerable to me. Stupid things like 8 lights on one team vs 2 lights on the other are just frustrating for both sides. The beta excuses are over. You have launched this game to the public.. So can we please get some better weight matchmaking? Please?


*Note, maths are hard, so if I made any errors I apologize in advance*

680t vs 535t = 145t difference - Horrendously Bad

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820t vs 750t = 70t difference - Not-Tolerable

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750t vs 780t = 30t difference - Tolerable

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695t vs 715t = 20t difference - Tolerable

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680t vs 620t = 60t difference - Not-Tolerable

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795t vs 635t = 160t difference - Horrendously Bad

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900t vs 830t = 70t difference - Not-Tolerable

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835t vs 780t = 55t difference - Tolerable

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685t vs 730t = 45t difference - Tolerable

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810t vs 725t = 85t difference - Not-Tolerable

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795t vs 815t = 20t difference - Tolerable

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645t vs 865t = 220t difference - Horrendously Bad

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685t vs 675t = 10t difference - Tolerable

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765t vs 715t = 50t difference - Tolerable

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840t vs 940t = 100t difference - Not-Tolerable

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695t vs 700t = 5t difference - Tolerable

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745t vs 780t = 35t difference - Tolerable

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775t vs 720t = 55t difference - Tolerable

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790t vs 825t = 35t difference - Tolerable

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835t vs 655t = 180t difference - Horrendously Bad

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770t vs 730t = 40t difference - Tolerable

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810t vs 785t = 25t difference - Tolerable

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650t vs 725t = 75t difference - Not-Tolerable

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815t vs 775t = 40t difference - Tolerable

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815t vs 770t = 45t difference - Tolerable

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815t vs 745t = 70t difference - Not-Tolerable

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625t vs 750t = 125t difference - Horrendously Bad

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755t vs 660t = 95t difference - Not-Tolerable

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780t vs 785t = 5t difference - Tolerable

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785t vs 760t = 25t difference - Tolerable

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860t vs 620t = 240t difference - Horrendously Bad

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740t vs 645t = 95t difference - Not-Tolerable

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850t vs 805t = 45t difference - Tolerable

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830t vs 785t = 45t difference - Tolerable

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900t vs 885t = 15t difference - Tolerable

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775t vs 740t = 35t difference - Tolerable

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695t vs 940t = 245t difference - Horrendously Bad

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890t vs 795t = 95t difference - Not-Tolerable

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775t vs 795t = 20t difference - Tolerable

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720t vs 810t = 90t difference - Not-Tolerable

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710t vs 880t = 170t difference - Horrendously Bad

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810t vs 685t = 125t difference - Horrendously Bad

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775t vs 840t = 65t difference - Not-Tolerable

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650t vs 755t = 105t difference - Not-Tolerable

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945t vs 840t = 105t difference - Not-Tolerable

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840t vs 795t = 45t difference - Tolerable

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835t vs 805t = 30t difference - Tolerable

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805t vs 785t = 20t difference - Tolerable

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835t vs 820t = 15t difference - Tolerable

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770t vs 830t = 60t difference - Not-Tolerable

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905t vs 785t = 120t difference - Horrendously Bad

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730t vs 785t = 55t difference - Tolerable

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570t vs 685t = 115t difference - Horrendously Bad

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645t vs 710t = 65t difference - Not-Tolerable

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665t vs 705t = 40t difference - Tolerable

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510t vs 785t = 275t difference - Horrendously Bad

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640t vs 770t = 130t difference - Horrendously Bad

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765t vs 735t = 30t difference - Tolerable

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690t vs 750t = 60t difference - Not-Tolerable

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Edited by Asakara, 30 September 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Very interesting read, sir. I was never an advocate of 12v12 from the start. I always thought it would just exacerbate steamrolls, and make balancing the teams harder. I am still seeing 12-0 kill games just like before. I am still seeing games where my team has one scout mech, and the enemy has 4 or 5, or the reverse. To me, the 12v12 also feels less like a tactical fight, and more like a big mess where your individual skill makes much less of an impact on your team's overall performance. I very often am fighting along, trashing the enemy, holding a choke point and have racked up two or three kills, only to turn around and realize my entire team got slaughtered and now the whole enemy force is crawling up my ***. Solution: A new option to choose 8v8, or even lance v. lance on smaller maps. I would love to be able to get 3 friends and square off against another team of 4. It would feel like I was really in command of my own destiny, and my actions directly equated to the outcome of the game, instead of every match starting with me thinking: "Well, hope I don't have **** teammates again this time!".

[Roughneck45]

I just wish they would bring back the 1-1 weight class matching.

It sure wasn't perfect, but the tonnage mismatches were not as extreme.

[MadCat02]

Good pilot can manage to do over 1500 damage in 12 vs 12 .

100-150 tons is not significant . 99% of the time it comes down to witch team has better players and not the size of their mech .

Edited by MadCat02, 30 September 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

MadCat02, on 30 September 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Good pilot .

Where are all these great pilots dealing 1,500 a game? You might be an amazing pilot, I don't know, but I have almost never seen numbers like this. Sometimes I see somebody break 1,000, but for me i see someone do it maybe once every ten matches or more. I am a damn good Assault pilot, and I often (read: usually) put up between 500-700, and almost always get at least 2 kills or more (Recently. I went through a learning phase where I sucked, and I knew it, but I stuck with it and got what I would consider to be "good"). I can also tell you that I am good enough to solo brawl and take down 2 other Atlai if the conditions are right, but I am pretty much crippled afterward. Most people can't though, and having the equivalent of an extra Atlas-and-a-half on the opposing team can really screw your less-skilled teammates, which comes back to screw YOU when your support gets killed and you end up fighting impossible odds on your own.

[MadCat02]

Mcchuggernaut, on 30 September 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Where are all these great pilots dealing 1,500 a game? You might be an amazing pilot, I don't know, but I have almost never seen numbers like this. Sometimes I see somebody break 1,000, but for me i see someone do it maybe once every ten matches or more. I am a damn good Assault pilot, and I often (read: usually) put up between 500-700, and almost always get at least 2 kills or more (Recently. I went through a learning phase where I sucked, and I knew it, but I stuck with it and got what I would consider to be "good"). I can also tell you that I am good enough to solo brawl and take down 2 other Atlai if the conditions are right, but I am pretty much crippled afterward. Most people can't though, and having the equivalent of an extra Atlas-and-a-half on the opposing team can really screw your less-skilled teammates, which comes back to screw YOU when your support gets killed and you end up fighting impossible odds on your own.

I get 1000+ every third game .Sometimes close to 2000 with SRM builds. At this point it means i cripled or killed 5 mechs by myself so 1 player can make a huge difference in a game .

Unfortunetly elo only takes win/loss ratio which is why its impossible to determine individual skills and therefor balance the game .

For lights 1.5 KDA is good for Assaults 2.5 or higher and this should be taken in cosideration

Edited by MadCat02, 30 September 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[3rdworld]

295 ton difference, happened yesterday. 6 assaults vs 0

Edited by 3rdworld, 30 September 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

MadCat02, on 30 September 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I get 1000+ every third game .Sometimes close to 2000 with SRM builds. At this point it means i cripled or killed 5 mechs by myself so 1 player can make a huge difference in a game .

You are either a troll, or I need a copy of your build and a small lesson from you on how to properly use it. One of my favorite mechs is a Stalker that has 5 SRM6 with Artemis, and I had a 7 kill game where nearly every member of the opposing team stood still and let me alpha them in the CT with the full load, and I ran out of missiles. My end damage, plus all the lasers I fired, came to 934. (I kept a screenshot because I was proud of my performance, having killed 7/12 ofthe enemy team.) Needless to say, I am skeptical with good reason. Please explain yourself, and If you are right I will bow to your superior skill and humbly learn what I can from you.

[Asakara]

MadCat02, on 30 September 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I get 1000+ every third game .Sometimes close to 2000 with SRM builds. At this point it means i cripled or killed 5 mechs by myself so 1 player can make a huge difference in a game .

Unfortunetly elo only takes win/loss ratio which is why its impossible to determine individual skills and therefor balance the game .

For lights 1.5 KDA is good for Assaults 2.5 or higher and this should be taken in cosideration

You are amazing! Since June 2012 and over 5,000 games I have never seen anyone as good as you claim to be.

Sadly I only have a crappy 2.4 something K/D ratio in my Jenner-D and a measly 4 something in my Raven-3L. But whatever, hopefully I will get better.

Anyway, this topic isn't about how super-awesome MadCat says he is vs everyone else in MWO.. But rather that there seems to be a lot of "horrendously bad" match weight balancing going on still.

Edited by Asakara, 30 September 2013 - 04:00 PM.

[OznerpaG]

i'v posted this before, but the problem is players are assigned to teams BEFORE all the players have joined. if the matchmaker waited until all the players joined, THEN assigned players to teams it could make sure each side had equally distributed tonnage and skill so there was at least a chance of an equal fight

Edited by JagdFlanker, 07 October 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Mcchuggernaut, on 30 September 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

You are either a troll, or I need a copy of your build and a small lesson from you on how to properly use it. One of my favorite mechs is a Stalker that has 5 SRM6 with Artemis, and I had a 7 kill game where nearly every member of the opposing team stood still and let me alpha them in the CT with the full load, and I ran out of missiles. My end damage, plus all the lasers I fired, came to 934. (I kept a screenshot because I was proud of my performance, having killed 7/12 ofthe enemy team.) Needless to say, I am skeptical with good reason. Please explain yourself, and If you are right I will bow to your superior skill and humbly learn what I can from you.

Asakara, on 30 September 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You are amazing! Since June 2012 and over 5,000 games I have never seen anyone as good as you claim to be.

Sadly I only have a crappy 2.4 something K/D ratio in my Jenner-D and a measly 4 something in my Raven-3L. But whatever, hopefully I will get better.

Anyway, this topic isn't about how super-awesome MadCat says he is vs everyone else in MWO.. But rather that there seems to be a lot of "horrendously bad" match weight balancing going on still.

I'm finding that anecdote a little hard to believe myself, since I've been playing from Closed Beta and onwards. With what I've seen in this (real) world, anything is possible but it seems a bit hard to fathom. Only screenshots will tell what is what...

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

You act as if there is actually weight balancing in the game.

There hasn't been weight balancing in this game since closed beta.

[Heffay]

My guess is that dropping in groups (especially high Elo groups as you are in) can really muck up the matchmaker. It would be interesting to rerun the numbers based on solo drops to see if it more closely matches PGI's numbers.

Yeah, I called you high Elo. I've seen you play. You can admit it.

Lyoto Machida, on 30 September 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm finding that anecdote a little hard to believe myself, since I've been playing from Closed Beta and onwards. With what I've seen in this (real) world, anything is possible but it seems a bit hard to fathom. Only screenshots will tell what is what...

The *highest* score I've seen since...well, they came out with match scores is 196. I also saw a 194, and other than that, 146. Granted, the 146 was on the losing side of a match, but STILL.

None of them were running an SRM build.

[Roughneck45]

Lyoto Machida, on 30 September 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm finding that anecdote a little hard to believe myself, since I've been playing from Closed Beta and onwards. With what I've seen in this (real) world, anything is possible but it seems a bit hard to fathom. Only screenshots will tell what is what...

+1

Screens or it never happened. We'll never get the screens, because it never happened...

[WarZ]

Mcchuggernaut, on 30 September 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

You are either a troll...

I remember 'mad' because I always hear so many players joke about the trolling.

Over the months I've seen that player in plenty of matches. Ive never seen him break 1k. Killed him numerous times. And lost to a team he was on a total of 1 time.

I see a lot of talk though.

The damage does not sound right. My kd stats are triple what he quotes, but usually I average the 700-800 damage per round. 1k+ are not common, but I definately get some. Every 3rd match is an outright BS.

There are at times some incredible exaggerations people make. The only problem is that it screws up real discussions as the numbers are generally BS. People are then led astray and misinformed, and because someone needs to boast an epeen that isnt nearly what he says it is.

I mean seriously dont you have any f'ing shame ?

[Mcchuggernaut]

WarZ, on 30 September 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

People are then led astray and misinformed, and because someone needs to boast an epeen that isnt nearly what he says it is.

I was pretty confused there for a bit. I thought I was getting good, and knew what good damage was, and then he goes and tells me that story. I went so far as to try and look at his profile to find his stats, but apparently you can't do that. According to what everyone else is saying though, I was right about my numbers assumptions. Thank you everyone else for setting me right.

[Joseph Mallan]

I guess I will be the outsider still. I don't have a problem with terribad Mismatches. I just chalk it up to battling an Elite force. and drop again. I don't expect to have an even battle every time. If I did I'd be really P.O.ed every time I die to a light or was double or triple teamed.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

I'm just gonna say, scatter plot.

[Gaan Cathal]

WarZ, on 30 September 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I remember 'mad' because I always hear so many players joke about the trolling.

Over the months I've seen that player in plenty of matches. I've never seen him break 1k. Killed him numerous times. And lost to a team he was on a total of 1 time.

I see a lot of talk though.

The damage does not sound right. My kd stats are triple what he quotes, but usually I average the 700-800 damage per round. 1k+ are not common, but I definately get some. Every 3rd match is an outright BS.

There are at times some incredible exaggerations people make. The only problem is that it screws up real discussions as the numbers are generally BS. People are then led astray and misinformed, and because someone needs to boast an epeen that isnt nearly what he says it is.

The irony is that, at the point you're running a certain number of kills/match, silly high damage numbers are actually not as good as lower (to a point) damage numbers because they mean you're not concentrating your damage worth a damn (look at the damage numbers dual-LBX+SRM Atlai put out compared with more concentrated damage builds). Same thing happened back when LRMs weren't that consequential for anything much but earning money hand over fist due to the high damage numbers they put up for very little actual impact. Calling out 2k damage with pride shows a fairly fundamental lack of understanding of that concept.

[Jman5]

People running extreme 4-mans light or heavy are pretty much responsible for the majority of weight mismatches. On top of that the matchmaker does not have an ability to go "wait a second this isn't working..." and reshuffle lances around. Once you get assigned to a team, you're there.

We need min/max weight caps and the ability for the matchmaker to throw everyone back in the pile and resort teams. Until that comes we're going to see the occasional bad game.

MadCat02, on 30 September 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I get 1000+ every third game .Sometimes close to 2000 with SRM builds. At this point it means i cripled or killed 5 mechs by myself so 1 player can make a huge difference in a game .

Unfortunetly elo only takes win/loss ratio which is why its impossible to determine individual skills and therefor balance the game .

For lights 1.5 KDA is good for Assaults 2.5 or higher and this should be taken in cosideration

Do you have a stream? I would love to see these consistent 1000+ damage games of yours.

Edited by Jman5, 01 October 2013 - 03:25 PM.