63 replies to this topic

[arghmace]

Some time ago I ran some tests with jump jets. With Jenners and Ravens the first JJ gave you thrust up to 23 meters. Each consecutive JJ gave just 5 meters more. With Catapult the first JJ gave you 27 meters and each consecutive JJ gave you 6m more.

I really think that every JJ should be as efficient. So if you for example can jump 40 meters up with 4 JJ's, having just one JJ should give you only 10 meters of thrust - not around 25 as it does now.

Why is the first JJ so much better than the rest? This has lead us to the point where most players just use one. Having just 1 critical slot and for most mechs .5 or 1 ton (only HGN has 2 ton jets) invested makes JJ capable mechs SOOOO much better than non-jumpers for a very very small investment.

If a single JJ wouldn't be as ridiculously good as it is now, this game would be much more balanced. Wanna jump high? Pay for it.

Edited by arghmace, 28 November 2013 - 09:34 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Well presumably having the mech equipped for jumping gives it a base amount of thrust and the mech can only generate so much terble werble garbtingle, narf mungley poodlepog.

Because otherwise mechs equipped with JJ's would be too heavy. Brah.

[Squiggy McPew]

I thought they redid jj so they scale better. As in having only one only gets you around 6 meters of jump.

[arghmace]

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Because otherwise mechs equipped with JJ's would be too heavy. Brah.

What we now have is competitive 12v12 battles consisting only of a small fraction of mechs. DDC is basically the only non-jumping mech ever used. Otherwise it's just Spider, Jenner, Shadowhawk, CTF-3D, Victor and Highlander - every one of them usually sporting just one jump jet, because that's all you really need. If you would have to invest more in jumping ability, we would most certainly have more variable and interesting battles with non-jumping mechs as well.

120mm, on 28 November 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I thought they redid jj so they scale better. As in having only one only gets you around 6 meters of jump.

They did? Gotta go straight to the testing grounds to do some tests. Like I said in the opening post, I collected those numbers a small while back.

[Almond Brown]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

What we now have is competitive 12v12 battles consisting only of a small fraction of mechs. DDC is basically the only non-jumping mech ever used. Otherwise it's just Spider, Jenner, Shadowhawk, CTF-3D, Victor and Highlander - every one of them usually sporting just one jump jet, because that's all you really need. If you would have to invest more in jumping ability, we would most certainly have more variable and interesting battles with non-jumping mechs as well.

They did? Gotta go straight to the testing grounds to do some tests. Like I said in the opening post, I collected those numbers a small while back.

But but many say JJ are not a big advantage. Are they wrong. 1 or 2 tons to fly? Wow. Wish my favorite had wings, but alas.

[Captain Stiffy]

ok enough joking they are in a good place right now, it's definitely worth it to have max jump jets and it's definitely a ***** to have only 1 when you really need more.

what's the issue exactly?

[arghmace]

120mm: You seem to be mistaken. I did a quick test and a Jenner with 1 JJ was lauched 23m up in the air and with 2 JJ's it was 28 meters. So it's still the same as before.

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

ok enough joking they are in a good place right now, it's definitely worth it to have max jump jets and it's definitely a ***** to have only 1 when you really need more.

what's the issue exactly?

It's also definitely a ***** to have 0 JJ when having 1 super uber efficient JJ for no real cost would make you way more efficient. Just one shouldn't be this good thus ruining the entire balance of the game. Basically only JJ capable mechs are used in competitive battles and it sucks balls.

Edited by arghmace, 28 November 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

120mm: You seem to be mistaken. I did a quick test and a Jenner with 1 JJ was lauched 23m up in the air and with 2 JJ's it was 28 meters. So it's still the same as before.



It's also definitely a ***** to have 0 JJ when having 1 super uber efficient JJ for no real cost would make you way more efficient. Just one shouldn't be this good thus ruining the entire balance of the game. Basically only mechs with JJ are used in competitive battles and it sucks balls.

But not ever mech is jet capable? I could see this if putting one jet on an Atlas was a twink strat but configuration is already taken into account when they make a mech jet capable. How many ECM jumpers do you see?

[Artgathan]

Why not make it non-linear (what we have now is linear: thrust = X * JJ + Base height)

1 JJ = X amount of thrust
2 JJ = 2X * 1.1
3 JJ = 3X * 1.3
4 JJ = 4X * 1.7
etc...

(Pure exponential growth would be a touch too fast IMO)

[Bront]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

What we now have is competitive 12v12 battles consisting only of a small fraction of mechs. DDC is basically the only non-jumping mech ever used. Otherwise it's just Spider, Jenner, Shadowhawk, CTF-3D, Victor and Highlander - every one of them usually sporting just one jump jet, because that's all you really need. If you would have to invest more in jumping ability, we would most certainly have more variable and interesting battles with non-jumping mechs as well.

Actually, mos competitive mechs have 2-3 JJs if they pan on using them. 1 JJ isn't enough to poptart or clear some hights. They don't max them out though.

[arghmace]

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

configuration is already taken into account when they make a mech jet capable.

Oh really? How is 3D nerfed compared to other CTF since it has JJ? How is an Orion any better than 3D that has JJ's?

Anyways making a mech worse since it has JJ's is a stupid way to go. JJ's should just be balanced by weight and their slot requirements - which they would be if the first one wouldn't be the mother of all JJ's, being 4-5 times better than the rest.

Edited by arghmace, 28 November 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Oh really? How is 3D nerfed compared to other CTF since it has JJ?

Muro has 3x ballistics hardpoints for one, I don't play crappy protectors

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Anyways making a mech worse since it has JJ's is a stupid way to go.

Well true but they don't do that, they just don't combine certain features. You won't find many mechs that combine certain things like jets and ECM or certain numbers of hardpoints with jets and when you do it's kindof the thing for that build.

[arghmace]

Artgathan, on 28 November 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Why not make it non-linear (what we have now is linear: thrust = X * JJ + Base height)

What we now have is NOT linear since the first one is many multipliers better than the rest. Making them linear is exactly what I'm suggesting here. But you seem to go even further with your exponential growth

[Artgathan]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

What we now have is NOT linear since the first one is many multipliers better than the rest. Making them linear is exactly what I'm suggesting here. But you seem to go even further with your exponential growth

The current system is linear, since it follows the pattern y = mx + b, where

• y = thrust power
  
• m = jump jet multiplier (in the case of most mechs this is around 5 or 6)
  
• x = number of jump jets
  
• b = base thrust (in the case of the catapult, 22m)
  
• So if we use the catapult, with 1 JJ, we get: y = mx +b -> y = 22 * 1 + 5 -> y = 27m

Linear Systems don't necessarily start at 0.


I don't think linear systems are the way to go, they're pretty boring in terms of gameplay results. There's still no real reason to install a third jump jet (increasing the total weight of your jets by 50%, but only gaining a 33% increase in thrust).

Edited by Artgathan, 28 November 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[arghmace]

Artgathan, on 28 November 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Linear Systems don't necessarily start at 0.

Yes, you are right of course. My mistake. So to put it more precisely: I think that the base thrust level is way too high. I actually agree that there probably should be a small base thrust level but the current one is too high, making non-JJ-mechs pretty much obsolete.

[Artgathan]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yes, you are right of course. My mistake. So to put it more precisely: I think that the base thrust level is way too high. I actually agree that there probably should be a small base thrust level but the current one is too high, making non-JJ-mechs pretty much obsolete.

Mistakes happen, such is life.

I agree with where you're going though. Currently the mobility afforded by one jumpjet is just too high. I think removing base thrust entirely is a good place to start. That way players would have to equip more jump jets, meaning they're stuck in the classic Mobility - Firepower - Armor Triangle. Want to actually jump (and not just clear small rocks)? Free up 5% of your mech's tonnage for jets (instead of the current 1%). I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Sandpit]

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Well presumably having the mech equipped for jumping gives it a base amount of thrust and the mech can only generate so much terble werble garbtingle, narf mungley poodlepog.

Because otherwise mechs equipped with JJ's would be too heavy. Brah.

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

ok enough joking they are in a good place right now, it's definitely worth it to have max jump jets and it's definitely a ***** to have only 1 when you really need more.

what's the issue exactly?

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

But not ever mech is jet capable? I could see this if putting one jet on an Atlas was a twink strat but configuration is already taken into account when they make a mech jet capable. How many ECM jumpers do you see?

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Muro has 3x ballistics hardpoints for one, I don't play crappy protectors



Well true but they don't do that, they just don't combine certain features. You won't find many mechs that combine certain things like jets and ECM or certain numbers of hardpoints with jets and when you do it's kindof the thing for that build.

This

[Kekkone]

Captain Stiffy, on 28 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

How many ECM jumpers do you see?

Spider 5D.

[Wrenchfarm]

Bront, on 28 November 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Actually, mos competitive mechs have 2-3 JJs if they pan on using them. 1 JJ isn't enough to poptart or clear some hights. They don't max them out though.

That isn't what I've seen. The super-pro HGN-733 2PPC/2UAC build only has 1 jet, and it's a clearly dominant mech. Lots of CTF-3D builds only use 1. Jenner-F only uses 1, needs the rest for sinks. A lot of people like stacking 3XAC2s on the SHD and using a single jet just for the occasional ridge hop and quick turn.

Even less "serious business" builds do great with one jet. The AC20 BlackJack is a good example.

The fact is, 1 jet does provide a disproportionately strong advantage. You only need a little boost to poptart effectively (in fact, if you are soaring above a ledge to take a shot, you're doing it wrong), being able to skid over rough terrain instead of coming to a dead stop (particularly noticeable when comparing the HGN and Atlas), and the ability to quick turn - all for the low low price of one crit slot and anywhere from .5-2 tons.

[Almond Brown]

As noted. Simply change the # of JJ's per chassis based on weight grouping (Light, Medium etc) and then require that Mechs with JJ take a full compliment in order to actually use them to go UP or OVER things.

Something must be wrong when all the Catapults get 4 and yet the Jester gets only 2 and is likely just as mobile.