335 replies to this topic

[Butane9000]

Quick question is when this is going to come out.

[luigi256]

All I want to know is will I be able to use my shiny new clan mechs when IS people hire me out. Will I be able to run clan tech when House Davion/whatever hires me for CW?

[Koniving]

Xeno Phalcon, on 18 June 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

If you guys are thinking that having mech types (Is or clan) locked to your faction in terms of CW you might as well put a fork in it now cause next they will be rumbling over faction oriented mechs (IE Kintaro and Dragon being kurita centric, ect ect). Not to mention this would cause a massive influx of players to the clans, many people have outright sold their IS stuff at this point.

And this is why we can't have good things.

On the other hand, if we had that armor concept I keep spreading around... Kintaros would be able to equip more armor than Griffins, which make a fairly steady trade: Jumpjets or more armor?

Most armored Griffin. Add 96 points standard to stock = 416 points new max.
Least armored Kintaro. Add 96 points standard to stock = 448 points new max.

Griffin, lower armor on all variants compared to Kintaros but lots of room for jumpjets.
Kintaro, at face value identical hardpoints to Griffins. No jumpjets. Much more armor even on the lowest armored variant.
(Ferro clause.

(The armor concept is stock armor tonnage + 3 more tons (1 ton standard = 32 points; 1 ton ferro corrected to double BT is 36 points), permitted to exceed current maximum armors for their weight class. When it comes to ferro, the tonnage rule still applies, meaning that Ferro can raise armor further [but with zero tonnage savings if you max it]. Currently hero mechs are excepted from this as they would need some redoing for the non-canon hero mechs; some 'adjustments' are being considered and when brought in line the concept will get a huge post).

Dragons (60 tons), well the 1-C anyway at stock armor can nearly compete with the most armored Thunderbolt (65 ton, one of the most armored 65 ton mechs in BattleTech) at stock armor, so with an armor limit based on stock armor tonnage + 3 tons as a new max, Dragons and Thunderbolts would nearly compete with Stalkers. Meanwhile Jagers, well, they have all the good cold firepower and what they're saving in armor they can use in standard engines to carry their big guns and ammo.

<.<

Oh, and Cataphract 3Ds have the lowest stock armor to the other Cataphracts; I'm just saying there'd be more reason to use the other ones.

In the end, the armor concept is designed to maintain the battletech stock armor differences even at max armor. If the strongest armored Griffin is 1 ton of armor less than the weakest armored Kintaro at stock with both mechs having standard armor, then at their maximums for standard armor, it will continue to be 1 ton difference, and at their maximums for ferro armor, that will continue to be a 1 ton difference.

As such if the difference between an Atlas (19 tons) and a Locust that starts with 4 tons of armor are compared, the difference is 15 tons (480 points). At their new maximums even though the Locust with 4 tons starting armor now gets 224 armor as its new max, the Atlas is still 480 points greater when it maxes.

But wait, the Jenner D and the Locust have the same armor, why use a Jenner again (aside from jumpjets)?
Locust has 75 structure health. (138 / 2 + 6 or Current Max cut in half + 6 for the extra cockpit structure OR Tabletop armor max + 6) = structure.
Jenner has 123 structure health. So even with identical armor, the Jenner will put up with more abuse.

Edited by Koniving, 19 June 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[wanderer]

People want to use everything, there will always be eternal deathmatching, just like there is now.

This is different, like Stock matches are different. Complaining on one hand that nothing changes while the other hand complains about something that would result in changes? They can find a deep hole and take a flying leap. I'd be happy to see IS-only factions, Clan-only factions, and penalties/buffs that make it worth not breaking the flavor of said factions. Especially when it encourages PGI to do what comes naturally, pour more 'Mech designs into the game to sell and fill in those factions.

[Cimarb]

wanderer, on 19 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

People want to use everything, there will always be eternal deathmatching, just like there is now.

This is different, like Stock matches are different. Complaining on one hand that nothing changes while the other hand complains about something that would result in changes? They can find a deep hole and take a flying leap. I'd be happy to see IS-only factions, Clan-only factions, and penalties/buffs that make it worth not breaking the flavor of said factions. Especially when it encourages PGI to do what comes naturally, pour more 'Mech designs into the game to sell and fill in those factions.

As long as it is done at the House/Clan level, I am fine with that. I don't want the break to be at the Clan/IS level, though. The line being drawn between Clan and IS is what gets my goat, not the line itself.

I want community warfare to matter, and that means my faction/unit needs to matter AND what planets we currently control. Just because I am a Clanner, why should I not be able to use an Inner Sphere mech when I control the planet that it is made on? If I am a mercenary unit working for House Davion, why would I be able to use a mech made and used exclusively by the Draconis Combine? If you give the excuse that House Davion all aged the mech, you have also lost the reasoning for the restriction from Clan mech usage, since we are already fighting them as well.

[Gyrok]

Red Legs Greaves, on 18 June 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

So from what your saying I just paid for a mech to do pug games or go join a clan unit? I understand they're trying to keep it authentic battletech but if I can't use it when something that is actually a game comes out why should I even bother getting a clan mech? And if it does play out like that than the Kurita players should get used to running just Jenners, Kintaros and Dragons. I'm sure they would love that.

Umm...welcome to BattleTech? What did you think...there was never going to be any part of lore association at all?

In 3049, in TT, there is absolutely no way any IS unit has any clan mechs, at all...it was not until 3052-ish, that they could even start reverse engineering things within a reasonable time frame. It would be like handing a kid who did a high school physics course some quantum mechanics equations and saying..."there you go, figure it out".

I actually applaud this decision, I think it makes this game different, and FACTIONS are a natural part of nearly any online game. Nobody complains elsewhere because they accept it...here, we get QQ over "I want to play a mech I would not have been able to field until 3 years after the current timeline RIGHT NAO!!! I want to do it competitively too!!!!"

Negative. There are MANY IS loyalists who will play CW as house/merc units and be proud to do so...if you want to play as a house with non faction gear, you are just looking to play whatever is FOTM, and likely your unit should disassociate with you anyway.

I have never run any insignia in this game until Clan Wolf tags were available. I do not play IS by choice. I liked the game well enough to play it sooner, on the promise this day would come, and now I am rewarded.

If you want to run clan mechs as a house unit...MW4 still has private servers running...so does MWLL.

[Butane9000]

Here's some suggestions Paul:

First, allow custom units (like our Marik Ginfighter Alliance) to form via a Mercenary Corp but then permanently tie ourselves to a house. The only difference this would make is A, instead of the merc corp symbol next to the tag (MGA) it'd be the House Marik symbol and B, instead of taking planets and contracts our activities would tie directly into Mariks progress and loyalty system.

Second, tying all power into one person is more often then not a bad idea. Give the groups the ability to tie powers of the Unit Leader into lower rank tiers. That way one player doesn't get angry and wipes out the group.

[Cimarb]

Gyrok, on 19 June 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Umm...welcome to BattleTech? What did you think...there was never going to be any part of lore association at all?

In 3049, in TT, there is absolutely no way any IS unit has any clan mechs, at all...it was not until 3052-ish, that they could even start reverse engineering things within a reasonable time frame. It would be like handing a kid who did a high school physics course some quantum mechanics equations and saying...&quot;there you go, figure it out&quot;.

Actually, House units were fielding fully functional Clan mechs as early as November of 3050. Learn your lore.

Kanrei Theodore Kurita said:

"So we lured the Jaguars into a bog on Wolcott - not honorable, perhaps, but we achieved a great victory and won hope for all the Inner Sphere." 15 Nov 3050

[Edward Mattlov]

Cimarb, on 19 June 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Actually, House units were fielding fully functional Clan mechs as early as November of 3050. Learn your lore.

Not in significant numbers.

[Cimarb]

Edward Mattlov, on 19 June 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Not in significant numbers.

"Significant" is very subjective. Name a single "significant" person in lore that had over fifty personal mechs in their hangar...

[Felio]

Regarding the IS/Clan split, I expect to be able to participate in CW with my friends, who won't all be of the same faction, and I expect an MC/USD refund on everything I bought that I won't be able to use on the side I choose. If you aren't willing to do that, don't do the split.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Felio, on 19 June 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Regarding the IS/Clan split, I expect to be able to participate in CW with my friends, who won't all be of the same faction, and I expect an MC/USD refund on everything I bought that I won't be able to use on the side I choose. If you aren't willing to do that, don't do the split.

CW is roleplaying...if this were Dungeons & Dragons and you were roleplaying an evil-aligned Vampire, don't expect to be grouped with your Human Cleric friends to fulfill a contract for a Lawful Good Human King. Seriously, after what, 40 years of D&D, is the concept of roleplaying lost on the newer generations? Most of the people that got into MWO at the very beginning supported the Battletech franchise and all the lore that came with it. To throw everything into a blender now and just have mixed death matches is not the MWO that most came looking for.

[CyclonerM]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 19 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

CW is roleplaying...if this were Dungeons & Dragons and you were roleplaying an evil-aligned Vampire, don't expect to be grouped with your Human Cleric friends to fulfill a contract for a Lawful Good Human King. Seriously, after what, 40 years of D&D, is the concept of roleplaying lost on the newer generations? Most of the people that got into MWO at the very beginning supported the Battletech franchise and all the lore that came with it. To throw everything into a blender now and just have mixed death matches is not the MWO that most came looking for.

Very well said.

Butane9000, on 19 June 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Here's some suggestions Paul:

First, allow custom units (like our Marik Ginfighter Alliance) to form via a Mercenary Corp but then permanently tie ourselves to a house. The only difference this would make is A, instead of the merc corp symbol next to the tag (MGA) it'd be the House Marik symbol and B, instead of taking planets and contracts our activities would tie directly into Mariks progress and loyalty system.

Exactly, Faction Units! They would be especially important for both the House and Clan units out there.

[Grey Rabbit]

Why not just simply give bonuses to loyalty, xp, and/or c-bills when using a proper faction's mech. Something similar to having a complete omnimech match up gets bonuses. Maybe killing enough Mad Cats will unlock them for C.W. on the I.S. side. . Who would argue is someone killed, say... 20 Thors.. and then earned the ability to pilot them via a salvage unlock. Salvage is Battletech roleplaying at it's finest, am I right? I'm sure that there's a happy middle ground here, someone just has to find it.

From a purely business standpoint, you can't have people drop $210-$240 on preorders to turn around the very next day after giving it to them and say "You can't use these for the meat and potatoes part of the game if you're a specific faction, by the way. Wakka-wakka!" No one on the I.S. side will ever buy a preorder package again and Clanners might, but will wonder what the catch is.

[CyclonerM]

Grey Rabbit, on 19 June 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Why not just simply give bonuses to loyalty, xp, and/or c-bills when using a proper faction's mech. Something similar to having a complete omnimech match up gets bonuses. Maybe killing enough Mad Cats will unlock them for C.W. on the I.S. side. . Who would argue is someone killed, say... 20 Thors.. and then earned the ability to pilot them via a salvage unlock. Salvage is Battletech roleplaying at it's finest, am I right? I'm sure that there's a happy middle ground here, someone just has to find it.

From a purely business standpoint, you can't have people drop $210-$240 on preorders to turn around the very next day after giving it to them and say "You can't use these for the meat and potatoes part of the game if you're a specific faction, by the way. Wakka-wakka!" No one on the I.S. side will ever buy a preorder package again and Clanners might, but will wonder what the catch is.

They knew it. They should have expected it

[Felio]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 19 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

CW is roleplaying...if this were Dungeons & Dragons and you were roleplaying an evil-aligned Vampire, don't expect to be grouped with your Human Cleric friends to fulfill a contract for a Lawful Good Human King. Seriously, after what, 40 years of D&D, is the concept of roleplaying lost on the newer generations? Most of the people that got into MWO at the very beginning supported the Battletech franchise and all the lore that came with it. To throw everything into a blender now and just have mixed death matches is not the MWO that most came looking for.

To use your analogy, the GM -- whom you have been paying money to, has all of the character sheets, and is the only man in the world allowed to run a game -- has been running a campaign that allowed for that kind of mixed party. If he changes the campaign at that point, players may become cross with him.

[Edward Mattlov]

Cimarb, on 19 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

&quot;Significant&quot; is very subjective. Name a single &quot;significant&quot; person in lore that had over fifty personal mechs in their hangar...

In lore, the only clan mechs available to IS forces (excluding Wolf's Dragoons), were captured, or salvaged mechs that were largely owned by only the richest, best, or most important mechwarriors in the IS. There was no mass production of clan mechs in the IS except for maybe in the clan occupation zones.

[Dawnstealer]

Red Legs Greaves, on 18 June 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

So from what your saying I just paid for a mech to do pug games or go join a clan unit? I understand they're trying to keep it authentic battletech but if I can't use it when something that is actually a game comes out why should I even bother getting a clan mech? And if it does play out like that than the Kurita players should get used to running just Jenners, Kintaros and Dragons. I'm sure they would love that.

Exactly why I didn't get any Clan mechs. And the IS mechs are available to any house (after a couple centuries of war), but some are more common than others. I'd imagine they'll be giving bonuses or some such for running a House-specific mech; I could even see them making it more expensive for new players to buy mechs that aren't in their House (so players who have them now would have a big advantage).

And if you're a Lone Wolf or a Merc, you aren't limited.

Just give me my Zeus and Hatchetman.

[Grey Rabbit]

CyclonerM, on 19 June 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

They knew it. They should have expected it

Funny, I dont' see it in the Clan Preorder FAQ. That would be pretty important information right there. We paid for mechs to use, not for the ability to be in a faction.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Felio, on 19 June 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

To use your analogy, the GM -- whom you have been paying money to, has all of the character sheets, and is the only man in the world allowed to run a game -- has been running a campaign that allowed for that kind of mixed party. If he changes the campaign at that point, players may become cross with him.

Yes, but the GM is in control...if no one wants to play his game, they go play someone else's game. Here, you have 3 choices...Public queue, where you can bring whatever mech you want within the weight limitations coming soon, or Private queue, where you can customize your own matches, or the Faction queue, where you adhere to the rules set forth by PGI and BT lore. Perhaps at some point, they will incorporate salvage of Clan mechs, as others have suggested, so that IS can pilot clan mechs. I'm okay with that as long as it is part of the lore and loosely appropriate for the timeline.