894 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mavairo, on 22 June 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

The game would be better off without FLD Pinpoint even existing in the first place.
I know people are going to say "jump sniping is a legit tactic!"
No it's not. It's mind numbingly boring, start to finish. There's a reason I sold all my victors save the dragonslayer, and re armed it with LL instead of PPCs.

Jump sniping is by far the largest reward for the least effort required in any game I've played that takes itself as seriously as the devs take this one. And that's saying quite abit considering I came from Star Trek Online and the high end guilds there.

You move, jump, shoot on the fall, and move somewhere else, rinse and repeat. There's no real survival skills there, given how minimal return fire is, positioning consists solely of playing a cross between keep away and whack a mole.

And people think this is okay, and entertaining?
I consciously stopped playing 12 mans because of this meta, I've also consciously avoided pouring my heart and soul into improving at this game, squarely because after four days of being a pop retart in live play, I found myself Revolted.

Which sucks, because I'm a competitive player at heart. But Move Jump, Shoot is so soul sucking mind numbing, I just can't be arsed to bother with it, especially since the meta hasn't changed one iota for over a year now.

Nerfing the TW into the ground isn't the answer. Perfect Convergence needs to be removed, that's the answer. Nothing else is going to address the problem, having a complete lack of shake on the Fall, is just a secondary at best issue.

As a side note I have more fun in 4 mans running around in pugs against other 4 mans and asst pugs than I ever did in 12s. Before the stat wipe my DS which I used (before the rearm) had a 6 to 1 KDR. But you know what? I have more fun bsing around in my TDRs and their Brawling Meager 1.87 through 2.11s than I ever did playing whack a mole.

So because of an abusive MEta, Light and Medium Mechs should not be able to fire, while jumping, on the move? Way to screw my mediums even further.

[1453 R]

Vassago Rain, on 22 June 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

I've been playing with and against the LORDS since they were DV8, before steel jags were the final say in meta warfare, back during the dark days when kaos still walked the earth. In all that time, the only top tier competitive player that's been unpleasant for real is PEEFsmash, and I don't think he's even around anymore.

If you take real offense to ggclose, maybe online gaming isn't for you, and you'd probably suffer a stroke if you saw the things random pubbies call me on a daily basis.

Ironically enough Vassago, it's not the 'GGClose' that gets me. Yeah, it does irk me when someone's a **** in drops, but if that were all I'd ever seen of Ryan, I'd've rolled me eyes and shrugged it off the same as I do everyone else's drop dickery. It's what I've seen of a few rotten Lords players, and quite a bit from you actually - and that is a complete and utter, actively scornful disregard for anyone who isn't a top-tier league player. If we aren't On Your Level, then we're actively harmful to MWO's existence and we could best serve the game by going out to the woods and hanging ourselves.

I concur that top-level players are where you find balance issues. I do not concur that balance should be a thing solely by and for top-level players, because the top-level players I've seen want to 'balance' everyone else out of the game, raise the skill floor so high that only existing league pros can even play anymore and everyone else vanishes. Top-level players are entirely unconcerned with approachability, player retention, and whether or not the public queues are enjoyable for anyone who wishes to enjoy them.

"Balance for league play and to Hell with pubbies" is a terrible way to run a game. I refuse to stand for it, and if that means I get ridiculed by league players who think I'm some manner of Uberscrub? Oh well. the "I don't give half a rotten damn about you, your opinions, or your continued existence" can by all means swing both ways, hm?

[TOGSolid]

The game should absolutely have a certain level of accessibility but let's not kid ourselves, there's no such thing as balancing for PUGs because as the past week has demonstrated, they don't have a clue what they even want or what the actual issues are.

You balance for competitive play and ensure that the lower level players can have fun too by keeping everything accessible. The way you do the latter has more to do with spreading information rather than actual "balancing." Like LRMs right now have a ton of counters so they're really not overpowered but because of the way matches are setup, there's no way to ensure your team will even have ECM present to help counter them. That's not a fault with the weapon but with the rest of the game design.

Edited by TOGSolid, 22 June 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[Odins Fist]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys ..... I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

...the Clans are seriously not OP...

After playing against a LOT of Clan Mechs in my I.S. Mech, I would have to say that Clan Mechs are not the OP boogyman that some people make them out to be.

My Friend runs them, and here's what he says..

-"They can mount absurd amounts of firepower BUT the heat is terrible, it's just like running certain I.S. Mechs and overheating constantly at a certain point."

"To make them viable you have to tone them way down for ANY sort of sustained fire on the enemy, effectively making them the same as I.S. Mechs in a match, especially if you have to brawl at any point."

"The advantages I thought would be present aren't there, on paper maybe, but heat just kills the potential of Clan Mechs, so do some of the quirks/mechanics used, you are a good target if an enemy catches you while you're trying to cool down, and i'm not talking about only the energy weapons."

"Some of the Clan weapons are a complete waste of time, they have quirks that make them NOT an option, some of AC weapons are a joke with the way they work." (The I.S. has a laundry list of weapons that are pretty bad too)-

I don't see Clan Mechs as OP, not when I fight against them..
In fact they are a LOT weaker then I thought they would be.

Are they tougher to kill..?? Not really, but I had a couple of matches where I shot out a side torso thinking that I would POP a XL engine, then I realized Clan XLs don't get popped like that, you have bust both sides off..

CONCLUSION: Clan Mechs, I do not consider them OP at all. I see this argument just as I saw people going ape over ECM when it came out, and I didn't have any trouble dealing with ECM either.

FYI: I do NOT own a single Clan Mech, not one... I just fight against them.

[Vassago Rain]

1453 R, on 22 June 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ironically enough Vassago, it's not the 'GGClose' that gets me. Yeah, it does irk me when someone's a **** in drops, but if that were all I'd ever seen of Ryan, I'd've rolled me eyes and shrugged it off the same as I do everyone else's drop dickery. It's what I've seen of a few rotten Lords players, and quite a bit from you actually - and that is a complete and utter, actively scornful disregard for anyone who isn't a top-tier league player. If we aren't On Your Level, then we're actively harmful to MWO's existence and we could best serve the game by going out to the woods and hanging ourselves.

I concur that top-level players are where you find balance issues. I do not concur that balance should be a thing solely by and for top-level players, because the top-level players I've seen want to 'balance' everyone else out of the game, raise the skill floor so high that only existing league pros can even play anymore and everyone else vanishes. Top-level players are entirely unconcerned with approachability, player retention, and whether or not the public queues are enjoyable for anyone who wishes to enjoy them.

"Balance for league play and to Hell with pubbies" is a terrible way to run a game. I refuse to stand for it, and if that means I get ridiculed by league players who think I'm some manner of Uberscrub? Oh well. the "I don't give half a rotten damn about you, your opinions, or your continued existence" can by all means swing both ways, hm?

I don't think you realize that what goes on in alt-chat is generally jokey smacktalk. Did Ryan hurt your feelings backseat driving, or something?

Truly offensive things are, in my experience (as one of the most high-value grief targets in the game) extremely rare.

Good games are all balanced for good players, because what they use eventually trickles down, and gets abused by everybody, no matter how bad they are at the game in question, with the lovely side effect that players of lower skill may not necessarily know how to counter a common and typical higher level problem, which then further adds to the lower skill lever players' issues.

Balancing for the lowest of the lowest of your game is a self-defeating act.

[1453 R]

TOGSolid, on 22 June 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

The game should absolutely have a certain level of accessibility but let's not kid ourselves, there's no such thing as balancing for PUGs because as the past week has demonstrated, they don't have a clue what they even want or what the actual issues are.

You balance for competitive play and ensure that the lower level players can have fun too by keeping everything accessible. The way you do the latter has more to do with spreading information rather than actual "balancing." Like LRMs right now have a ton of counters so they're really not overpowered but because of the way matches are setup, there's no way to ensure your team will even have ECM present to help counter them. That's not a fault with the weapon but with the rest of the game design.

You know what the ideal is, in any sort of competitive game? Hell, most any game period that wants to have any kind of shelf life?

"Easy to learn, hard to master."

This indicates a big honkin' stretch of space between the skill floor - the minimum level of ability required for competence - and the skill ceiling - the limits of performance one can gain from the game by improving their own abilities. There should always be room to improve, but there should also be plenty of space to get stuck in and have fun no matter where you're at on the curve.

I don't necessarily advocate balancing for pugs, but I sure as HELL aren't going to sit around while we let players like the House of Lords advocate balancing the game without any thought or consideration for the public drop experience whatsoever. It ALL has to be fun, not just league play, eh? Otherwise you guys'll be back to hacking MW4 in no time.

[Prezimonto]

Mystere, on 22 June 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Without touching the IS (ER)PPC?




A very specific nerf targeted at a very specific mech? How well did that work for the Victor and and the Highlander?


Right. (on both counts)

That's my point, I DON'T want a direct nerf bat to the Timberwolf like the Victor got. All it did was emphasize jumping shots by de-emphasizing mobility.

I would like ALL jump jets to behave the way I described.

As for the ERPPC.. yes, I've also argued for a while that the IS PPC and ERPPC should get something like a 5/3/2 damage spread.

Edited by Prezimonto, 22 June 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[Roland]

Making a wide variety of viable weapons and chassis is not something which only benefits high end play.

It benefits everyone playing the game.

[TOGSolid]

1453 R, on 22 June 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

You know what the ideal is, in any sort of competitive game? Hell, most any game period that wants to have any kind of shelf life?

"Easy to learn, hard to master."

This indicates a big honkin' stretch of space between the skill floor - the minimum level of ability required for competence - and the skill ceiling - the limits of performance one can gain from the game by improving their own abilities. There should always be room to improve, but there should also be plenty of space to get stuck in and have fun no matter where you're at on the curve.

I don't necessarily advocate balancing for pugs, but I sure as HELL aren't going to sit around while we let players like the House of Lords advocate balancing the game without any thought or consideration for the public drop experience whatsoever. It ALL has to be fun, not just league play, eh? Otherwise you guys'll be back to hacking MW4 in no time.

I absolutely agree. Your prior post just didn't really come off right so I was just steering the discussion a bit.

The funny thing with MWO has always been that the tourney guys and the PUGs are equally wrong about everything. They keep dancing around all these "balance" ideas and what not while completely ignoring the root cause of all the problems with basically everything. Hell, a good number of "high level" players used to lose their ******* minds whenever I'd make threads about ways to get rid of PPFLD meta so it's not like they're all that much smarter than the "steering wheel underhive" they like to make fun of. They're much quicker to figure out how to abuse the meta but that doesn't mean they're able to properly analyze why it is or isn't healthy for the game.

Edited by TOGSolid, 22 June 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Vanguard319, on 22 June 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

nah, make it so that losing JJs on one side causes your mech to drift in that direction, in addition to losing thrust relative to each JJ lost. Does the job just as well, while making more sense in terms of gameplay.

I can get behind physics based solutions. I'd like to see your targeting still have problems with proper convergence under those situations though.

[Gyrok]

Mister Blastman, on 22 June 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

I think the problem is and will always be weapon convergence and front-loaded damage. Until either of these are addressed for every weapon class in some manner, this problem will persist. In the right hands, FLD is scary good.

Normally, you and I see pretty eye to eye on most things...the first part I disagree with completely...

However, this part I have highlighted is the true culprit, and changing anything but that mechanic is only treating a symptom with a placebo. Have we not been down this road, multiple times in the past with disastrous results?

FFS, FIX THE ISSUE!!! Do NOT go nerfing things willy nilly again just for the sake of trying to cure something that cannot be cured by anything but addressing the issue itself! The Victor was nerfed to the point that it is ultimately ONLY good for jump sniping now...which is a travesty to what that mech should really be. Let us not tread so lightly as to remove the ENTIRE POINT of the Timber Wolf by doing the same.

Let us get the job done right this time...we have had many opportunities...the message should be PP FLD needs to GO! Mech's designed for speed and mobility should not be immobile slugs because a subset of players want to use it poorly. If we address the meta and change it sufficiently that it is no longer top dog, then we can finally have nice things.

PP FLD is why we cannot have nice things...

All this QQ over the Timberwolf, what of the Gargoyle that goes 89 kph as an 80T assault mech???? If the issue is not fixed now, eventually everything will have the turn rate of an Atlas except light mechs, that will be capable of soloing an entire 12 man with 1 Jenner or Firestarter...FFS STOP THE INSANITY!!!!!!!

[LordKnightFandragon]

Black Arachne, on 22 June 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Ghost Heat has to go - hard point restriction is the better option. Giving mechs almost unlimited customization was a huge mistake. Also add the burst mechanics to IS AC's - TTK needs to be increased - game still plays like Call of Mechwarrior - where everyone targets the CT - central mass just like in every FPS game which doesn't work for Battletech - since it has hit locations.

.

Except PLanetside 2, where it has become Call of Headshot side 2.....aiming center mass anymore doesnt work, aim at the head and you might win 30% of the time cuz half your shots, or the guy your firing at, might not register...or they might.....or hell, neither of your shots will register and you will both spend 50 rounds into each other and neither of you will die.




But as for the competitve meta, yeah, it sounds boring. Its boring enough to meet it in game, where a PPC/GR mech 1 shots my warhawk's torso off, then 1 shots the other off....

I wouldnt wanna see the other weapon systems buffed to make it so all guns could do that, but nerf the GR or PPC combo so its not so likely to do it. Make it so PPC/GR cant be fired together? lol. Make it where 2 PPC/GR PPC/PPC GR?GR cant be fired at the same time? Only 1 at a time?

Battletech is supposed to have a TTK longer then a human based shooter, but dayum, in a few battles, ive lasted no longer then a human based shooter running headlong into a tank shell....

Poke up to take a looksie for targets and BLAM, left torso, destroyed, Large pulse laser destroyed, ER Large laser destroyed, Heatsinks destroyed, AMS destroyed, Center torso critical damage, Left leg, critical damage......RT is orange, other arm is red...lol.

[JohnSoloman]

1453 R, on 22 June 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Ironically enough Vassago, it's not the 'GGClose' that gets me. Yeah, it does irk me when someone's a **** in drops, but if that were all I'd ever seen of Ryan, I'd've rolled me eyes and shrugged it off the same as I do everyone else's drop dickery. It's what I've seen of a few rotten Lords players, and quite a bit from you actually - and that is a complete and utter, actively scornful disregard for anyone who isn't a top-tier league player. If we aren't On Your Level, then we're actively harmful to MWO's existence and we could best serve the game by going out to the woods and hanging ourselves.

But your kind generally are.

Your kind make fictional statements like, IS pulse lasers are viable, flamers work or that the JJ nerf will absolutely work. Why should any one listen to TT fans who have no concept on how a video game works? Let alone how to configure a mech without gimping it in a way that would make kerensky himself reconsider leaving the innersphere. When these nonsense people shout at the top of their lungs how " Pinpoint alpha should be nerfed, so lets add cone of fire while moving or jumping! " forgetting what people do in CounterStrike when they clutch AWP or bunny hop.

I've seen too many forum warriors make such bold statements without any run down on how this would work without hurting other mechs, opening up more abusive gameplay or making the tryhards jump to the new meta. Pauls current idea is to harm legs for jumping, I want you to think about that long and hard. If you ever jump into a jenner or spider or Kintaro, Maybe you own an IV-four or something. Think about running around on canyon network jumping from hill to hill as your legs lose 10 points of armor. Then imagine playing in a Light and not being able to hit the broadside of an awesome at a relative distance.

I saw much smarter, much more collected individuals make suggestions that blow anything I've heard since out of the water. All of it would have saved us this descent into hell and the next months of pain you will all receive once Paul's patch goes live.

[Eddrick]

Ghost Heat multiplyer would have to be increased to make a noticable differance. Around 5 extra heat isn't much extra.

Ghost Heat level 2 0.08 x 4.5 multiplyer for ERPPC = 0.36 x 15 Heat ERPPC Generates = 5.4 extra heat from Ghost Heat.

[Gyrok]

JohnSoloman, on 22 June 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

But your kind generally are.

Your kind make fictional statements like, IS pulse lasers are viable, flamers work or that the JJ nerf will absolutely work. Why should any one listen to TT fans who have no concept on how a video game works? Let alone how to configure a mech without gimping it in a way that would make kerensky himself reconsider leaving the innersphere. When these nonsense people shout at the top of their lungs how " Pinpoint alpha should be nerfed, so lets add cone of fire while moving or jumping! " forgetting what people do in CounterStrike when they clutch AWP or bunny hop.

I've seen too many forum warriors make such bold statements without any run down on how this would work without hurting other mechs, opening up more abusive gameplay or making the tryhards jump to the new meta. Pauls current idea is to harm legs for jumping, I want you to think about that long and hard. If you ever jump into a jenner or spider or Kintaro, Maybe you own an IV-four or something. Think about running around on canyon network jumping from hill to hill as your legs lose 10 points of armor. Then imagine playing in a Light and not being able to hit the broadside of an awesome at a relative distance.

I saw much smarter, much more collected individuals make suggestions that blow anything I've heard since out of the water. All of it would have saved us this descent into hell and the next months of pain you will all receive once Paul's patch goes live.

Why should you listen to them, when you ignore a Game Designer working on a MMO currently...?

Hello, I am a game designer...I have made multiple legitimate suggestions over the last 12-18+ months, and they have been summarily ignored by the player base and the devs. I do my part trying to make something that is broken, not broken anymore, but propose a solution in such a manner as it would not severely handicap unique features that make the game interesting. Sure you can take the nerf everything into the ground until it all plays the same, either mech A with JJs and X hard points or mech B with Y hard points and no JJs. That would be ridiculously boring though would it not? Why not be creative, do something productive and keep the game fun....

If you want everything to handle like an Atlas because skill is OP, that is your own fault, and the fault of those who blindly follow that path...however, there are creative solutions, the issue is...no one wants them implemented for X, Y or Z reason.

If they touch the mobility on the TW in any way, it will only mean the beginning of the end for this game.

EDIT: You want a solution that works? OK:

ALL ACs become DOT with burst fire.

IS PPCs deal 7.5 damage PP and 2.5 splash to one component nearby.

IS ERPPCs deal 10 damage PP no splash.

Gauss would have to be what it is...there is really no way to conceptually remain intact as the pre-eminent sniper weapon that goes kaboom in your mech when it gets hit otherwise. If you want to re-write it completely...make it like the HAG a rotary sort of weapon that does not jam, but has a long recharge...(6-ish seconds, with a buff to overall damage but low damage per shell, perhaps 6 shells of 3 damage each over 1.8 seconds)

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 07:00 PM.

[Roland]

What games have you designed?

[jaxjace]

This thread should be closed, clans are not op

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 22 June 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

What games have you designed?

Was studio head for this project before I took another offer (to get paid):

https://www.kickstar...?ref=nav_search

They are not to market yet, but I am working on a new project similar to it now...

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[Abivard]

PPC's are the problem, they have always been the problem.
PPC's paired with, gauss, ac20, ac5's gauss again, but always it is a pair of ppc's with a FLD PP ballistic.

The so called comp players are akin to the duelists in their salles with their expensive hi tech props, but yet clueless and helpless when a real battle rears it's head and they are stuck with G.I. equipment.

Yet they have had an overwhelming influence on the game, pretty much anything that threatens the ppc/ballistic meta has been nerfed and denigrated. often to the cry of 'Think of the new players'.

The comp crowd can be used as canaries, when they drop dead we know we have a problem, but the noises they make are as apt to be as much nonsense as that chirping the canaries made while they were still alive.

They have been 'dropping dead' from the PPC meta since closed beta, but PGI refuses to see that and so do the insulated comp crowd.

[WarZ]

Simple question to Aduv & Heim : Did you buy clan mechs ? Do you own the timberwolf ?

The timberwolf has disadvantages rolled in with those advantages you whined about.

The timberwolf is too agile ? For one its a heavy not an assault mech as per the current meta. Heavies should be more agile than assaults. The reason for that agility ? Its forced to sport that 375 engine ! I like to run my cataphract with a 325 to 340 engine. My cataphract with those engines is more agile than the timberwolf. 82 to 86 kph and it is VERY responsive at those speeds (torso twist, etc). Compared to my Cataphract my timberwolf feels a little sluggish in the twisting and pitch yaw areas.

So, compared to the IS mechs in its category, the idea that the timberwolf is too agile is bullshit. You are acting like its some kind of godly overly responsive machine. I wish it were.

Guess what ? Being forced to run that 375 engine removes many of the possible builds that you can do with IS mechs. I was dissappointed to realize you cannot effectively build/run dual gauss. Cant pack on enough ammo. You can BARELY make a dual ac10 build. To have enough ammo you have to get rid of backup weapons. And the backup weapons in that kind of build are those ****** long burn time clan beams. Who'd have thought that a 75 ton timberwolf with those hardpoint options wouldnt make for a strong dual ac20 mech ? It cant. And if you could mount both, wouldnt because of ammo issues. You are forced to run erppc, you cant opt in for a just as effective but far more heat efficient regular ppc. So if you want erppc, suddenly your heatsink investment of tons and slots shoots way way up.

To get that agility and speed, you have to sacrifice a very large number of strong builds that the IS mechs can do quite comfortably. Which I found quite surprising.

You seem to be complaining because a mech that is in a weight class thats lower than the victor assault class is more responsive. IT SHOULD BE. It should definitely be when it is running a 375 engine. And engine that cuts down SEVERELY on a lot of the more exciting builds.

So the ONE build that frightens you is the META build. It can do a similar build to current meta mechs, and gets some extra speed. But when viewed from the other angles it simply cant make the other kinds of "good" cheese. To many sacrifices. That engine makes you more agile, but you PAY for it hard in other ways.

The best builds on that mech are simply more balanced ones. Not very fear inducing to be honest.

However, that being said, I'm not saying the mech does not have value. It does. I enjoy a faster mech. I'm not mentally limited to the meta only game and mindset. I'm personally willing to take a more modest loadout to the battlefield in exchange for that speed. Its not always ideal, but it works.

It has trade offs. Its a fun mech, its actually quite balanced. It is far from OP as you suggest.

Lastly, unless you are playing clan mechs yourselves you have no idea how badly that spread AC damage, long burn time of their lasers, and high heat weapons hurts them. I would happily equip IS weapons (laser, AC, and pulse) on my clan mechs and happily pay the higher tonnage cost if it was possible.

In the end you are not crying about a mech being OP. You are crying about the meta being OP. Jump sniping has been an exploited VERY high reward vs low risk tactic, thats gone on too long, and hasnt had enough done to address it. Thats the core of your problems. And the core of the problem for most players in this game. It's caused severe damage to the game.

Very high risk vs low reward. It isnt skill. Its an exploit. Which is why its so f'ing powerful. Broken mechanics are.