894 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Igor Kozyrev, on 26 June 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yes, you are right. Lights should be able to freely attack assaults and win 1v1 battle, but currently light mechs can **** up literally anyone who doesn't have ssrms. And the main problem with lights that they can shoot the bullseye on speeds far beyond 100 km/h.

Cuz, you know, assault mechs are big and it's hard to miss them. And you don't need your top speed to stay behind them, so you'll be able to aim pretty good.

I'm pretty sure most meta players would disagree with this wholeheartedly. Pinpoint 20-35pt alphas are much more lethal to a light than ssrms ever will be. Also, you won't be able to stay behind anything that has jump jets.

Edited by pwnface, 26 June 2014 - 01:38 AM.

[Igor Kozyrev]

pwnface, on 26 June 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure most meta players would disagree with this wholeheartedly. Pinpoint 20-35pt alphas are much more lethal to a light than ssrms ever will be. Also, you won't be able to stay behind anything that has jump jets.

And one post above I said what should be done to make meta less deadly. And speaking about lights, with less accurate aiming, they won't be running around like crazy in the middle of the battle. And if PGI finally add falling mechanics, that will put light mechs in their place.

But this is off-topic. I'd like to stress out once again what I was saying about balance. Current weapon characteristics are OK. PGI should balance the way we play mwo, not the numbers. There a other means to prolong TTK and nerf pinpoint weapons.
As I said, make aiming harder. Add crosshair bobbing. Add random offset for each weapon when mid air with working thrusters, cuz currently aim point just moving little bit away, so I can easily correct this and shoot even while gaining heights.

Edited by Igor Kozyrev, 26 June 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

crosshair bobbing is a sim mechanic I would certainly like to see in this game, recoil would also really make me happy. but really the biggest thing this game needs is a better mechanic to control group fire. the current group fire mechanic sets the skill ceiling really low because you can just boat weapons with similar properties and 1 click for massive damage.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 26 June 2014 - 03:26 AM, said:

crosshair bobbing is a sim mechanic I would certainly like to see in this game, recoil would also really make me happy. but really the biggest thing this game needs is a better mechanic to control group fire. the current group fire mechanic sets the skill ceiling really low because you can just boat weapons with similar properties and 1 click for massive damage.

Unfortunately that is the demographic PGI wants to target for this game. Consider that low-skilled, high ego players make up the vast majority of the vocal minority in this game, and look at their success in keeping the meta stale for as long as they have. That is the group that PGI will cater to because that is the group that earns them the most money.

Until that cycle is broken and PGI figures out a way to earn money whilst catering to the general population you won't see any serious attempts at curbing that "one button" mechanic.

[Zuesacoatl]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

WOW...just WOW...I expected far more objectivity from someone in as high a competitive standing as you are heimdelight.

If so many of these things are OP, then why is it that you see more CERLL than you do CERPPC?

Additionally, I would like to point out, the IS ERPPC is just as OP as the CERPPC...which is to say, it is not at all OP. The IS standard PPC is retardedly broken in terms of cost versus reward, yet there is no nerf being called for on those...?

Additionally, why is it that Clans are built for DPS, which spreads, while IS are built for PP FLD, which does not? PP FLD > DOT. This is why the clans have higher DPS, they have absolutely 2 PP FLD weapons, and one of those spreads damage (CERPPC) and runs ******** hot.

Sure I can run 4 CERPPC and fire in volleys on the WH Prime, however, I would like to note, I removed all the LRMs and targeting computer and filled it full of 28 (that is correct 2-8 as in twenty eight) DHS, and it is still HOT. I can fire about 3 volleys of 2 before the seat of my mech is about to burn through my pants.

So, while I appreciate you speaking out on your perspective...the Clans are seriously not OP...the mechanics are different, which means the meta (gasp) will have to adjust to accomodate. I would think comp players tired of a stale meta would like that to happen, instead of sitting here talking about how AC/PPC should remain on top...

Vassago Rain, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

You're talking about the ghetto. He's talking about his own 12 manz and pub drops against steel jags, where all he says is true.

I never thought I would ever agree with Vassago, but he is right, like you I see plenty of CERLL, but I am not in the highest of Elos, nor do I play in a comp 12 man. I do have to say though that both perspectives such as yours and heimdelight's need to be considered before weapons adjustments. Yes I would like to see less old Meta mechs, and shake it up with a new meta,

I do like the Clans and IS as they stand myself, with minor adjustments to the Clans being done, as in less AC rounds per shot to shorten AC duration, a better separation between the pulse and standard clan lasers, but other than that, in the middle elo tier where I know I sit, the clans as they stand sit rather nicely.

The only problem with this issue for PGI is that it has to take the competitive and more casual users input and make the best decision it can to please both sides the best it can. I do not wish to see the old meta return, with ppc gauss on high elo players minds. I like the shakeup the new CLuRMs are changing things up, but, the comp players pay to play too, and they deserve to have a game that interests them just as much as I do. I feel bad for devs of any game that can be played competitively and casually, it is a jugglers worst nightmare.

[Blacksoul1987]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Unfortunately that is the demographic PGI wants to target for this game. Consider that low-skilled, high ego players make up the vast majority of the vocal minority in this game, and look at their success in keeping the meta stale for as long as they have. That is the group that PGI will cater to because that is the group that earns them the most money.

Until that cycle is broken and PGI figures out a way to earn money whilst catering to the general population you won't see any serious attempts at curbing that "one button" mechanic.

It's not the comp scene to blame for the mechanics of this game. the problem this game has is that the learning curve is too steep for new players but the skill ceiling is too low for veterans, comp players use the poptart meta because its the only option to further extend the skill ceiling, due to the very simple firing and piloting mechanics. I believe if the firing mechanics had more depth you would not have to resort to pogo sticking to gain an edge. A lot of players would agree with what I said however what most of us disagree on is what the proper solution would be.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 26 June 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

It's not the comp scene to blame for the mechanics of this game. the problem this game has is that the learning curve is too steep for new players but the skill ceiling is too low for veterans, comp players use the poptart meta because its the only option to further extend the skill ceiling, due to the very simple firing and piloting mechanics. I believe if the firing mechanics had more depth you would not have to resort to pogo sticking to gain an edge. A lot of players would agree with what I said however what most of us disagree on is what the proper solution would be.

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying regarding the skill level and learning curve.......and the fact that the root cause is the poorly designed and implemented mechanics that promote the 1 click win mentality........the fact remains that it is the comp scene (and wannabe comp scene) players that are so vocal about keeping that mechanic at the forefront. Read any number of threads or posts from them and you can see it clearly. They abhor that thought that PGI may at one point change things so they can't "spacebar, click" their way to victory as easily as they can now.

[Blacksoul1987]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

While I agree with a lot of what you're saying regarding the skill level and learning curve.......and the fact that the root cause is the poorly designed and implemented mechanics that promote the 1 click win mentality........the fact remains that it is the comp scene (and wannabe comp scene) players that are so vocal about keeping that mechanic at the forefront. Read any number of threads or posts from them and you can see it clearly. They abhor that thought that PGI may at one point change things so they can't "spacebar, click" their way to victory as easily as they can now.

some are like that but not all. I was a comp player in MW4 and ran all the meta cheese but I always wished there was more depth just like now I have 2 meta mechs the dragon slayer and cataphract that I pull out on occasion but I also have 50 some other mechs with varied loadouts that could be competitive if the mechanics of this game were improved.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 26 June 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

some are like that but not all. I was a comp player in MW4 and ran all the meta cheese but I always wished there was more depth just like now I have 2 meta mechs the dragon slayer and cataphract that I pull out on occasion but I also have 50 some other mechs with varied loadouts that could be competitive if the mechanics of this game were improved.

Then you are not a part of the vocal minority........given that I've played with you and we are on the same HUB, I'm not at all surprised as there aren't many of the "I love my meta, leave it alone" folks on our HUB that are super vocal about keeping it as it is. Still, read the threads on these forums, especially since the Clan release.......it's not at all unusual to see one of the HoL tools screaming about how OP clans are while arguing that their DS or 3D should never be touched because after all, that "spacebar + click" tactic allows them to claim to be superior at the game. Those are the ones I refer to and those are the ones that have a vested interest in having PGI keep the mechanics as they currently are.

[Blacksoul1987]

R Razor, on 26 June 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Then you are not a part of the vocal minority........given that I've played with you and we are on the same HUB, I'm not at all surprised as there aren't many of the "I love my meta, leave it alone" folks on our HUB that are super vocal about keeping it as it is. Still, read the threads on these forums, especially since the Clan release.......it's not at all unusual to see one of the HoL tools screaming about how OP clans are while arguing that their DS or 3D should never be touched because after all, that "spacebar + click" tactic allows them to claim to be superior at the game. Those are the ones I refer to and those are the ones that have a vested interest in having PGI keep the mechanics as they currently are.

we call them "Munchkins" I think most of the comp players have the same mentality that I have and we simply use the meta cheese to make certain we do not start the round at a disadvantage.

Edit: now I play casual and use mostly whatever I want and just pull out meta if I keep getting stomped its a vicious circle really

Edited by Blacksoul1987, 26 June 2014 - 05:04 AM.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 26 June 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

Edit: now I play casual and use mostly whatever I want and just pull out meta if I keep getting stomped its a vicious circle really

Exactly. I own a HM, 3D and a DS but rarely use them. Currently they only perform well when meta'd out and that's just not fun to me. I have more fun in a Misery with a 20 and 5 ML's than I ever do in one of those meta mechs. When I get hit with a long term losing streak, I hop into the only meta mech I enjoy, my Raven with 2 ERLL and annoy the piss out of them. Win or lose, it's fun listening to them whine about the "cowardly Raven" that won't come out in the open and fight them, all the while taking pot shots at range and watching them scramble to pin me down in a corner.

[maniacos]

Igor Kozyrev, on 26 June 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yes, you are right. Lights should be able to freely attack assaults and win 1v1 battle, but currently light mechs can **** up literally anyone who doesn't have ssrms. And the main problem with lights that they can shoot the bullseye on speeds far beyond 100 km/h.

Cuz, you know, assault mechs are big and it's hard to miss them. And you don't need your top speed to stay behind them, so you'll be able to aim pretty good.

Well that's totally not true. Just today I got my Ember's leg shot off in one single alpha by a nova (12 med laser? or something similar). I had almost full armor I had not taken any hits yet... Mediums can **** up lights pretty well, they are agile enough to maneuver against lights and have the firepower to alpha-shot them to cripples while coming with enough armor to hold against a few light attacks. If your assault suffers from lights, you should get a medium support.

Edited by Jherek C, 26 June 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[maniacos]

Igor Kozyrev, on 26 June 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

But this is off-topic. I'd like to stress out once again what I was saying about balance. Current weapon characteristics are OK. PGI should balance the way we play mwo, not the numbers. There a other means to prolong TTK and nerf pinpoint weapons.
As I said, make aiming harder. Add crosshair bobbing. Add random offset for each weapon when mid air with working thrusters, cuz currently aim point just moving little bit away, so I can easily correct this and shoot even while gaining heights.

Light's wont alpha finish your assault, it is still alot of work to get an Atlas down for a Jenner or Ember, when it hasn't taken too many hits before. You don't need bobbing or what not. Lights live from being agile and shot while moving. A standing light to take a shot is a dead light that made maybe 30 pts damage.
Also, assaults need support. Ask a light or medium to wing you and you are much more safe. I as a light pilot will be glad to know where I can be of some use. Don't hate them, take advantage of what you are hating here about.

Edited by Jherek C, 26 June 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Chemie]

meta chassis change (3D->HGN->DS->Timberwolf) but they were all the same meta ballistic/PPC.
Bottom line: No one thing will fix what is broken. PGI tried ghost heat; Others suggst DHS capacity but neither of these in themselves will fix. Lowering DHS just makes energy even less viable and pushes to more ballistics.

Bottom line PGI sees mechs as monetization but how many combinations of B/M/E can you get? Same weapons goes into those mechs. The ballistic/PPC meta is driven by high FLD and pin-point. They could change more damage to splash (limit to 10? to 5?) but then snipers are angry. Even if they nerf JJ poptarts, meta stays the same but on the ground from distance vs over the hill.

The timberwolf is the current meta but it is really the same old same old. Clans just show the problems even more.

Combinations of:
more armor (2.5 armor vs 2)
DHS capacity reduction
more splash
lower DPS
many other changes

are required to change the boring meta. Otherwise, long range engagement, FLD, pinpoint wins and this is PPC/ballistics.

Edited by Chemie, 26 June 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[InspectorG]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 25 June 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

I can tell you guys one thing, until hill climb is reduced so that mechs can climb 60 degree inclines and Acceleration is increased poptarting will be the only way to play at the competitive level that has any meaning.

Good observation and a great thought...

Mechs are usually bipedal and usually HAVE ARMS to climb with.

Those actuators could be used to increase climb speed...

Now, i know MWO cant be a port of TT, but, i think heat should be addressed. SSM is so different from pugland. And i think DHS is the big cultprit. As far as poptarting? I dont want to see those who have practiced their aim unduly punished but shake on the way down and a convergence fix/differing weapon speeds could help.