894 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

We've often made suggestions that would bring jumpsniping back down to a reasonable level. That these changes haven't been implemented isn't our fault.

Instead of trying to create a strawman please argue against the OP's actual points.

If you're trying to accuse Heim of doing that point it out in his post instead of speaking generally. It's also probably wise to quote this bit again.



I think we're arguing different things at this point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that you see a lot more build variety and balance is somewhat alright due to that, correct? I wouldn't disagree on there being more build variety. There is. It makes sense considering how recently clans were released. What I'm saying is that despite there being more build variety, balance is not fine. It's worse than it was. The same mechs we've been running for ages, FLD ballistic/energy with JJs, are even stronger with the clan variants. These are going to eventually dominate the playing field much like they currently do with the IS.

People are trying new things. This is good. But the same thing happened when ghost heat was implemented at the 3xPPC/1xGauss Highlander was put out to pasture. For about a month people were experimenting constantly, pugs had a lot of variety again, etc.. Eventually though, the meta trickled down and now you see the 2xAC5/2xPPC stuff that's all to familiar. The same thing is eventually going to happen to clan mechs. The point of the OP was to make these things known and try to curb it before it happens, because the clan jumpsnipers are even more annoying and broken than the IS variants that are everywhere.

3XPPC + gauss is still broken, Ghost heat changed nothing, you just fire less often...

Additionally, the amount of weapons and ammo you can carry on an IS mech due to the ability to change engines etc. make it ridiculously more OP in IS chassis at this point.

Also, my point is, without experimentation, how will we find something that breaks the meta?

So jump snipers are not going anywhere...we know that, even if they mess with it more, that will not change. However, what if a combination of clan weapons are found to be the "anti toaster streudel"? I noticed more CERLL for a reason...RANGE. The CERLL has a MASSIVE range advantage over jump sniping IS mechs. That means I can hit you harder than you hit me every time you pop up. Yes, it spreads...however, something is better than nothing...AC5s + PPCs do half damage or worse at 850m...while 2xCERLL do ~23 damage. In a long protracted fight...eventually all the spread damage will strip everything off...and I can take your 12-15 damage in a TW longer than you can take my 23 in a Victor...

[Gyrok]

ratgoat, on 22 June 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Jeez Heim, way to prod this nest of neckbeards.

The Timberwolf should not have JJs, end of story.

Ok, let's get rid of them on the Victor too...in fact, why not just not have JJs at all? That solves the issue...

/I can do hyperbole too...

[TheNineBreaker]

Very tired of hearing the word nerf.
Find a real solution instead!
If PGI ruins the timberwolf as they did the catapult then they owe me a refund.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

True, and yet not. Because Ultra Comp players are still people. Some of them really do want to see the most balanced game possible. Others really don't give a fig, as long as they can stay on top and toss out a GGClose at the other side.

Heimdelight, Curccu, Adiuvo would generally be in the former group, I believe. But being top Game Players, does not make people into paragons of virtue within a gaming community, inherently smarter than everyone else, or even better at FIXING balance issues.

Of course they are still people, but the accusation I was responding to was the one that competitive players in general are somehow unfit to comment on balance because they conspire to protect their strategies. And I claim this is a false accusation, deluded both in it's assessment of competitive players as a group and the idea that such a conspiracy would be possible even if someone wanted to do it. If someone in the top tier was to claim that poptarting is underpowered and FLD needs a buff, no one would take that seriously because the data on competitive matches are there to look at, it just wouldn't fly.

Second, it's not about being smarter but about expertise. Expert players/developers/scientists/etc in a given field are more likely to understand the contemporary challenges of it. The better a person understands a game the more likely he is to correctly assess balance problems. Now who is more likely to have the best understanding of a game, a good or a bad player? One who plays casually or one who devotes serious time to research, train and compete? Of course it is possible that a developer or a long time fan can possess the adequate understanding without being particularly good at winning, but in general good players will actually know better that bad players. And the best players will be most likely to know best, especially on balance issues they often know better than the developers do because they are the ones pushing the game to it's strategical limits.

Now I don't know if the OP is correct, though I'm inclined to think so, but I do know that if players from competitive teams with tournament endgames in their merits have balance concerns those concerns are likely valid. Just like balance concerns expressed only by casual players are less likely valid.

[Papaspud]

Your spot on bout Lights, and smaller medium mechs becoming useless. The damage put out at long range by the clan mechs makes them nothing but targets. Just look at the simple fact there are getting to be less and less mediums and lights actually playing. Nothing shows the fact more than that, when you see more heavies or assaults than mediums and lights combined.... then there is a problem, unless of course you are in that heavy or assault.

Brawling is all but gone in a small mech, you can't take the massive amounts of damage, and long range against the clan mechs is a losing game. I knew this would be what happened when you release a whole series of mechs that carries more firepower than the other, wait until everybody has those clan mechs mastered, it isn't going to get any better. Go clan or stay home, unless you enjoy being some ones bullet sponge.

Game is pretty much over for me, I find it boring as all get out now, nobody even bothers to cap on CQ, and the other 2 game modes are just blob up and shoot......... boy that is fun..

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Poptarting needs jump jet heat scaling and fall damage in place. When those were announced, I was really excited. I enjoy jumpsniping (I see poptarting as derogatory ) and don't think it needs to be completely rid of. It needs penalties, and the penalties being introduced are good for balancing jumpsnipers as well as 'Mechs that have jumpjets in better (because mechs with jumpjets are almost always better than mechs without them).

I generally use both terms, lol. Jumpsniping for those who are skilled, and it is just part of their tool box, and poptarts for the mid tier or lower guys who just stand in one place, and well, poptart.

Part of my issue is not the tactic itself, which I agree is valid and should stay. It's the overall low risk/high reward nature, and comparative low skill learning curve. (While many great players jumpsnipe, let us be honest, the basic tactic is very easy to use).

I do think those ideas will make a difference, but let me ask, how do you feel adding .5 seconds (approximately, number could be tweaked based on test data) of continued JJ shake AFTER thrust is cut would affect the state of the Meta?

To my mind, it would still keep the tactic valid, but increase the skill threshold to use it successfully, as your shot window is now much smaller. With the fall damage implementation and heat, it would also add to the difficulty, and since one would now have to jump higher to get a clear shot window, I would think would need to mount more JJs to have sufficient fuel to cushion the fall. Because one has to jump higher, one now exposes more of the mech for longer, thus reducing the obvious risk to reward advantage.

And since the code is already in game, it would seem rather simple to implement.

[White Bear 84]

Mystere, on 22 June 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

This is really so tiring. As such, I will continue to just quote myself from another thread:

Yeah agreed.. ..it is really boring. I want PGI to introduce some weird change that does something weird to IS mechs so everyone can complain about something else...

[Vanguard319]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

been asking that since CB..... but the "perfect aim purists" rebel at the thought. Even though it actually requires more thought and skill to succeed than than the current pick a pixel method in MWO.

Well, that's where the devs should tell the "perfect aim purists" to **** off and implement it. Even in an age of gyro stabilized guns, Tank crews tend to stop the tank before firing because even though they can fire on the move, they're still going to have more accuracy while stationary than while on the move. There's also a precedent for such in the TT rules, where you have targeting penalties for walking, running, and jumping.

[Forte]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Poptarting needs jump jet heat scaling and fall damage in place. When those were announced, I was really excited. I enjoy jumpsniping (I see poptarting as derogatory ) and don't think it needs to be completely rid of. It needs penalties, and the penalties being introduced are good for balancing jumpsnipers as well as 'Mechs that have jumpjets in better (because mechs with jumpjets are almost always better than mechs without them).

I sincerely do believe that giving ghost heat to two clan erppcs will solve the jumpsniping problem with Clan 'Mechs. I feel the 1xGauss 1xERPPC Summoner is more than balanced, and for 5 more tons you get 2xERPPC and 1xGauss, which is very powerful. Making ghost heat start at one PPC would make the summoner a more appealing choice, while balancing the timberwolf's jumpsniping ability. As for IS, the PPC may honestly need the same treatment. It's better than the Clan ERPPC and couples too well with the AC5s and Gauss.

I think jumpsniping with 25 pinpoint damage is significantly different than jumpsniping with 35 (Gauss) or 30 (AC5 with more DPS). I also don't like giving ghost heat to multiple weapons, like ghost heat to using a combination of PPCs/AC5s or PPCs/Gauss. The combos are fine, it's the amount of damage being done per volley without return fire. Or the damage being done at any distance while an enemy closes in.

I understand the goal, however you are not just nerfing the Twolf, but also nerfing all of the other Clan mechs. I'd rather change the interaction of Gauss and PPC than nerf PPC. Dual PPC Twolf with SRMs is fun and not OP, Summoner with 2 PPC 2 ERML isn't OP, neither is the Adder, or Kit Fox with it. Obviously it isnt either weapon by itself, but the interaction. Kicking the ERPPC is not a great move and will just ruin more fun builds.

[TOGSolid]

Vanguard319, on 22 June 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

Well, that's where the devs should tell the "perfect aim purists" to **** off and implement it. Even in an age of gyro stabilized guns, Tank crews tend to stop the tank before firing because even though they can fire on the move, they're still going to have more accuracy while stationary than while on the move. There's also a precedent for such in the TT rules, where you have targeting penalties for walking, running, and jumping.

Pretty much. We know aim scattering is possible within the code so how hard would it be to tie your throttle percentage and the size of your mech to how much convergence you get? That way lighter mechs could move faster and maintain better aim while bigger mechs have to be much more careful with how they move. With that simple of a formula a third modifier could be included as a quirk for some mechs to grant them better aim on the move.

It's a no-brainer solution really. A little rough, but totally possible with the tools in this game.

Edited by TOGSolid, 22 June 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[heimdelight]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

I generally use both terms, lol. Jumpsniping for those who are skilled, and it is just part of their tool box, and poptarts for the mid tier or lower guys who just stand in one place, and well, poptart.

Part of my issue is not the tactic itself, which I agree is valid and should stay. It's the overall low risk/high reward nature, and comparative low skill learning curve. (While many great players jumpsnipe, let us be honest, the basic tactic is very easy to use).

I do think those ideas will make a difference, but let me ask, how do you feel adding .5 seconds (approximately, number could be tweaked based on test data) of continued JJ shake AFTER thrust is cut would affect the state of the Meta?

To my mind, it would still keep the tactic valid, but increase the skill threshold to use it successfully, as your shot window is now much smaller. With the fall damage implementation and heat, it would also add to the difficulty, and since one would now have to jump higher to get a clear shot window, I would think would need to mount more JJs to have sufficient fuel to cushion the fall. Because one has to jump higher, one now exposes more of the mech for longer, thus reducing the obvious risk to reward advantage.

And since the code is already in game, it would seem rather simple to implement.

I don't agree with using more screen shake after using jumpjets. Shooting in the air is not the problem, it's the amount of pinpoint damage being done without return fire. When a brawler finally closes in on a jumpsniper, it should effectively be game over unless the jumpsniper is perfect in aim nearly every shot on the approach. If the jumpsniper does less damage, the brawler is less damaged when he finally arrives and can do enough damage to do the job.

[Prezimonto]

I think they should add less FLD and more hops to the CERPPC.

Something like 6/4/3/2.

The clan Gauss, I'm not sure what to do with it. It's just good for it's tonnage, and spreading damage doesn't make much sense.

As for the Timberwolf, I hate to see it get nerfed too hard like the Victor. All the Victor can do well now is jump shots, which it's still amazing at.

What I'd like to see is that pod mounted JJ need to be balanced to work.... so if you've got 4 (two either side) and lose one to a crit, you only get 2 JJ.... if you lose a whole side, you can't fly.

Add that jj in general need a complete rework to push a mech UP AND FORWARD roughly equally, and raming into a wall or landing hard or taking hits should cause real damage and/or cause your shots to wide while your gyro stabilizes your mech.

I don't think the timberwolf is OP without jump jets (have played quite a bit of "stock" prime and c variants).

[1453 R]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Actually, I'd argue that someone who is at the top of competitive play is there for a reason. In order to be there, they'd have to understand general game strategy and mechanics for movement on the map, and how 'Mechs work in order to take them out more efficiently or identify them faster. They also have to build their own 'Mechs, and use it to their advantage.

Generally, they know far more about the game than everyone else. They know what results in a win majority of the time, and know what does not, whether it be weapons or strategy. Paragons of virtue is a lot to say obviously, but competitive players are certainly more knowledgeable and better at the game than most people are. Not all competitive players are the best at communicating or critical thinking in terms of balance, just like all human beings. Finding the ones who communicate well enough and are willing to spend the time explaining things properly with as much understandable as possible should be the main goal.

All very true.

Competitive players also tend to be extremely insular and very hostile to anyone who has not 'proven their worth' (i.e. anyone who is not a time-tested competitive player themselves), and many/most of the competitive player suggestions I've seen on this forum - such as destroying the Timber Wolf as a usable strike chassis by applying the VTR Giganerf to ita nd thusly forcing it into the role of a ghetto popsniper, eh Heim? - are often as much aimed to wreck the lower skill tiers of play as they are to improve the higher tiers.

Quite simply, many of the competitive players I've seen on this forum - ironically, mostly from the House of Lords - not only do not care if anyone who isn't in a high-end 12-man league has any fun with MWO...they actively dislike the notion of 'scrubs' having fun with the game and wish for it to be as complex and unapproachable as possible, thus the better to ensure that no-talent losers like that 1453-R guy go the hell away and leave their game alone.

If you could keep towering dungspewers like Ryan Steel on a tighter leash, you'd have a much better image around here and people would be more receptive to your ideas. That said, telling us that Clan laser durations need to be increased, and that the range and damage on all Clan weapons needs to be knocked down on top of increasing burn times, and that C-ERPPCs should be generating ghost heat even in chainfire mode...well. You had me scowling even before you suggested effectively removing the Timber Wolf from the game.

The simplest, most elegant solution for dealing with popsniping is to have the jump jet reticle shake decay when the jets are cut, rather than instantly settling into place again. if it takes a second or two for the reticle to calm back down, then popsnipers need to get more hang time in order to take accurate shots, which both entails equipping more jump jets (decreasing tonnage available for PPCs and AC/5s) and exposing oneself for a longer period of time (long enough to acquire with lasers and hold on target throughout the burn. Y'know, unless we go to 3s burn times like Heimdelight suggests). Combined with jet heat and fall damage, and we may finally see popsniping fall off as the dominant gameplay tactic as it will be rife with drawbacks in exchange for its patently obvious benefits.

After that, and after the Clan 'Mechs have been available FOR MORE THAN A WEEK, we can take another look at gameplay balancing and seeing if Clan front-loaded damage is still troublesome. I get the distinct feeling that, while it will always be valuable and likely still dominate the league play meta, FLD without the virtually 100% cover uptime of a good popsniper will not prove quite so unstoppable. Should a C-ERPPC/C-Gauss sniper have to expose himself to counterfire in order to get his own shots off, then maybe the greater damage/weight efficiency of non-instant damage can start to tell.

Only one way to find out - and that way is not to kill all Clan weapons and 'Mechs and completely invalidate the Invasion launch prior to fixing the popsniping shenanery this game has needed fixed for forever.

[Prezimonto]

TOGSolid, on 22 June 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Pretty much. We know aim scattering is possible within the code so how hard would it be to tie your throttle percentage and the size of your mech to how much convergence you get? That way lighter mechs could move faster and maintain better aim while bigger mechs have to be much more careful with how they move.

It's a no-brainer solution really.

This is what I've been saying for almost a year now. Let targeting computers offset the issues.. so large mechs have to dedicate REALLY big targeting computers into a build to get convergence back.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

3XPPC + gauss is still broken, Ghost heat changed nothing, you just fire less often...

Additionally, the amount of weapons and ammo you can carry on an IS mech due to the ability to change engines etc. make it ridiculously more OP in IS chassis at this point.

Also, my point is, without experimentation, how will we find something that breaks the meta?

So jump snipers are not going anywhere...we know that, even if they mess with it more, that will not change. However, what if a combination of clan weapons are found to be the "anti toaster streudel"? I noticed more CERLL for a reason...RANGE. The CERLL has a MASSIVE range advantage over jump sniping IS mechs. That means I can hit you harder than you hit me every time you pop up. Yes, it spreads...however, something is better than nothing...AC5s + PPCs do half damage or worse at 850m...while 2xCERLL do ~23 damage. In a long protracted fight...eventually all the spread damage will strip everything off...and I can take your 12-15 damage in a TW longer than you can take my 23 in a Victor...

3xPPC/1xGauss still works but you aren't going to have the DPS nor the pinpoint accuracy that it once had.

The Timberwolf runs 2.5 tons of ammo, so just 5 less shots than the normal builds.

The thing about experimentation is that... we already spent hours doing that. Literally. On Tuesday House of Lords booted up the private lobbies and we scrimmed each other for most of the day. This continued on Wednesday. And Thursday. Steel Jaguars did the same thing. JagerXII did some of it on stream even. From this experimentation we found that the same builds as always were still the most effective thing. We also found that SRM brawlers were incredibly fun and wrecked **** once they closed, but rarely could even close with Timberwolf heavy teams. They're fast enough to kite effectively and still have the same damage as always. 5 more, in fact.

[heimdelight]

Forte, on 22 June 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

I understand the goal, however you are not just nerfing the Twolf, but also nerfing all of the other Clan mechs. I'd rather change the interaction of Gauss and PPC than nerf PPC. Dual PPC Twolf with SRMs is fun and not OP, Summoner with 2 PPC 2 ERML isn't OP, neither is the Adder, or Kit Fox with it. Obviously it isnt either weapon by itself, but the interaction. Kicking the ERPPC is not a great move and will just ruin more fun builds.

This is where I feel the influence of skill comes into play. Pinpoint weapons, when mastered and are aiming for specific components, are far more effective than any other weapon in the game. If I am really good with those two PPCs, they will be overpowering. This nerf will hit all jumpsnipers, regardless of builds, lowering their damage output in jump snipe trades, and allowing brawlers to be less damaged when finally engaging with the snipers.

[Jman5]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

How about a more visible presence in posts that are actually addressing Jumpsniping? I know you have been present and contributed to many of mine.

Or even making posts like this one, but for the sake of having Jumpsniping moderated?

though a lot of the anti-Lords commentary are based on perception, more than fact, fair or not. Unfortunately, due to a few individuals within HoL, many people cannot look past that perception, and like it or not, in many ways "perception is reality".

Perhaps if more members of Lords or SJR (like yourself or Curccu) took the time to actually post thought out answers, and didn't seem to simply live to rub meta into the underhives face, with a snide GGClose! to go with it, people would be more open.

Believe it or not, things would probably go a lot smoother, and ideas be addressed and supported more unilaterally, if the top Comp Houses actually acted more like they were part of the MWO Community, instead of "Lord"ing it over the community.

You likely think it irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but if Heimdelight and yourself can't post without gaining the same derision Paul or Russ have earned themselves, I would beg to differ.

Just my 2 cts and observations, brother man. Take em as you will.

I think many of the regular forum posters here don't understand just how utterly frustrating this place is. It's like showing up to an insane asylum where people argue up is down and black is white. Any mention of imbalance or change to game values gets you immediately attacked by a handful of regulars who imply you need to learn to play. The only reason this was somewhat muted in this thread is because Lords are unquestionably one of the best competitive teams out there. (and a lot of people came over from reddit)

It took more than a year for some of the regulars on this forum to recognize that jump sniping with Autocannon + PPC was one of the most powerful combos in the game. And some people still don't get it. Can you imagine how frustrating it is to spend a lot of time seriously practicing with and playing against all sorts of different weapon/mech combos. Facing off against the very best of the best in this game. And then when you post your findings on the forum you get pages of people who just hand wave your argument saying you're just whining.

We can't even agree on fundamental principles of the game.

I post here regularly because I believe it's one of the best ways to get feedback to PGI. However, make no mistake, I do not enjoy this place. I wish all the comp guys would post here regularly because it would lead to better discussions, but I understand why they don't.

Edited by Jman5, 22 June 2014 - 04:42 PM.

[Marauder3D]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

This is where I feel the influence of skill comes into play. Pinpoint weapons, when mastered and are aiming for specific components, are far more effective than any other weapon in the game. If I am really good with those two PPCs, they will be overpowering. This nerf will hit all jumpsnipers, regardless of builds, lowering their damage output in jump snipe trades, and allowing brawlers to be less damaged when finally engaging with the snipers.

The thing I don't understand is if we nerf the Twolf's maneuverability, we maintain the dominance of jumpsniping.

Shouldn't the goal be nerfing the dominance of jumpsniping--so maneuverable brawlers like a SRM/Laser Twolf can be effective?

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

3xPPC/1xGauss still works but you aren't going to have the DPS nor the pinpoint accuracy that it once had.

The Timberwolf runs 2.5 tons of ammo, so just 5 less shots than the normal builds.

The thing about experimentation is that... we already spent hours doing that. Literally. On Tuesday House of Lords booted up the private lobbies and we scrimmed each other for most of the day. This continued on Wednesday. And Thursday. Steel Jaguars did the same thing. JagerXII did some of it on stream even. From this experimentation we found that the same builds as always were still the most effective thing. We also found that SRM brawlers were incredibly fun and wrecked **** once they closed, but rarely could even close with Timberwolf heavy teams. They're fast enough to kite effectively and still have the same damage as always. 5 more, in fact.

Yes, true, however if the AC10 was PP FLD, you would see that instead of gauss because approximate range and weight savings.
Also the clan mechs are firing ERppcs which means lower dps with no range advantage and a small bit of splash over IS versions. The issue with IS versions are normal PPCs run too cool and ACs are PP FLD, so what say IS ACs are switched to burst, now the DPS decreases PP is less absurd and things are more even keeled...

[Adiuvo]

1453 R, on 22 June 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

If you could keep towering dungspewers like Ryan Steel on a tighter leash, you'd have a much better image around here and people would be more receptive to your ideas.

How the hell do you post stuff like this and expect people to be nice to you?