894 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

GreyGriffin, on 22 June 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Competitive players should have zero input on how the game is balanced, since they have a clear interest in retaining the dominance of their chosen tactics. Observation based on competitive games should be used to ferret out the dominant tactics and adjust the game to inject more variety at all levels of play.

That's a complete misunderstanding of the competitive mindset, the best players of any given game will simply USE the strongest tactics. One of the core skills of being a competitive gamer is evaluation, seeing what is strongest at any given moment and quickly adapting to that. If you think there is any interest in preserving dominant tactics for your own interest you are missing the fact that good players adapt much quicker than bad players, so even if there was such shady motives involved the competitive crowd would have more to gain from a rapidly changing metagame. But usually competitive players just want the game to be balanced so their level of play becomes more varied and interesting.

The OP in itself refutes your point, he is asking for nerfs to the thing he currently uses himself. Clearly not in the interest of preserving any favored tactic but because at his level of play the variety is decreasing as a result and he'd rather have more alternatives.

The second sentence of your post is just a perfect description of what competitive players are already doing, both in terms of providing feedback and for self improvement.

[wanderer]

More appropriately, he seems to be pointing the finger at one meta-capable (new) chassis without much comment on the previous ones.

"Nerf this chassis" does nothing to change the meta. If we nerf the Timber Wolf, it just ends up falling back into the general Clan pool of "We'll ignore this" while the regular IS Shadow Hawk/Cataphract/Victor pogo-sticking sniperfest continues.

If there needs to be a nerf, it's to what allows the meta-tactic to begin with. That's accurate, midair fire.

[heimdelight]

My only advice to every single person in this thread is to please read my post in it's entirety. I see many of you misinterpreting what I am saying, and I would spend the time replying to each and every one of you with specific sentences in my OP but it's too much of a time investment with too little reward. My best advice is to please read the post as a whole.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 22 June 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

That's a complete misunderstanding of the competitive mindset, the best players of any given game will simply USE the strongest tactics. One of the core skills of being a competitive gamer is evaluation, seeing what is strongest at any given moment and quickly adapting to that.

True, and yet not. Because Ultra Comp players are still people. Some of them really do want to see the most balanced game possible. Others really don't give a fig, as long as they can stay on top and toss out a GGClose at the other side.

Heimdelight, Curccu, Adiuvo would generally be in the former group, I believe. But being top Game Players, does not make people into paragons of virtue within a gaming community, inherently smarter than everyone else, or even better at FIXING balance issues.

[wanderer]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

My only advice to every single person in this thread is to please read my post in it's entirety. I see many of you misinterpreting what I am saying, and I would spend the time replying to each and every one of you with specific sentences in my OP but it's too much of a time investment with too little reward. My best advice is to please read the post as a whole.

Next time, I'd suggest a second post below the first one ASAP with a "placeholder for comments" you could then edit without making the OP a mile long.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

How about a more visible presence in posts that are actually addressing Jumpsniping? I know you have been present and contributed to many of mine.

Or even making posts like this one, but for the sake of having Jumpsniping moderated?

though a lot of the anti-Lords commentary are based on perception, more than fact, fair or not. Unfortunately, due to a few individuals within HoL, many people cannot look past that perception, and like it or not, in many ways "perception is reality".

Perhaps if more members of Lords or SJR (like yourself or Curccu) took the time to actually post thought out answers, and didn't seem to simply live to rub meta into the underhives face, with a snide GGClose! to go with it, people would be more open.

Believe it or not, things would probably go a lot smoother, and ideas be addressed and supported more unilaterally, if the top Comp Houses actually acted more like they were part of the MWO Community, instead of "Lord"ing it over the community.

You likely think it irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but if Heimdelight and yourself can't post without gaining the same derision Paul or Russ have earned themselves, I would beg to differ.

Just my 2 cts and observations, brother man. Take em as you will.

Oh I see what you mean. Yeah, most comp players really don't have a presence on the forums. I've long tried to get people to actually post here. There are reasons they don't though. These aren't how I view things, but in general most comp players think that people in the forums generally don't know what they're talking about, have terrible ideas about balance, are extremely hostile, are more liable to try to discredit a person rather than discredit an argument, have snide remarks to make about comp play, etc.. You can see examples of this in this thread, or in Jager's question thread. The problem is that much of this is self-fulfilling. Too many comp players come in here, see some of the stuff that gets posted, and just get discouraged/annoyed and stop posting. Therefore the same ideas continue to gain traction here and you get weird **** popping up like people saying LBXs are awesome, LRMs are literally the most broken thing ever, among other things. What needs to happen is for comp players to bite their teeth, post, and help people. Basically comp people can't complain that the forums are the way they are when they don't post here.

Regarding HoL specifically, our actual comp team isn't like that. We don't ggclose unless there are people on the enemy team that we know and are messing around with, or (at least for me) when people complain about someone saying gg. Personally I try being pretty open and friendly to any questions people have. However, I won't be nice when people are {Richard Cameron} to me or my friends, insult what I do, call me names, and other general unpleasantness.

Just about all of us stick to the subreddit though, specifically OutreachHPG. Here's a Reddit version of this thread. Note the differences in level of discussion and general attitude. Ideally that would happen here too, but, as this thread shows, it doesn't

EDIT: Not sure how I haven't seen the Richard Cameron thing before haha.

Edited by Adiuvo, 22 June 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

My only advice to every single person in this thread is to please read my post in it's entirety. I see many of you misinterpreting what I am saying, and I would spend the time replying to each and every one of you with specific sentences in my OP but it's too much of a time investment with too little reward. My best advice is to please read the post as a whole.

I am trying not to misinterpret anything , good sir. IN fact, I agree with most of your salient points. I simply am curious as to your thoughts on the already long overripe issue of Poptarting in general, and how to fix that, which I do believe should be even higher priority than the Timber Wolf, though the Timby certainly needs a heavy review.

[ratgoat]

Jeez Heim, way to prod this nest of neckbeards.

The Timberwolf should not have JJs, end of story.

[Dakshinamurthy]

Some people in this threat legitimately made demands for buffs to the victor if the timby was nerfed. What kind of sick individual absolutely demands that they have an imbalanced mech to play and threatens quitting if they don't get it? I mean that's deep selfish it's going to take years of therapy to fix that. I mean can you imagine what these people must be like in real life?

Edited by Dakshinamurthy, 22 June 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[heimdelight]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

True, and yet not. Because Ultra Comp players are still people. Some of them really do want to see the most balanced game possible. Others really don't give a fig, as long as they can stay on top and toss out a GGClose at the other side.

Heimdelight, Curccu, Adiuvo would generally be in the former group, I believe. But being top Game Players, does not make people into paragons of virtue within a gaming community, inherently smarter than everyone else, or even better at FIXING balance issues.

Actually, I'd argue that someone who is at the top of competitive play is there for a reason. In order to be there, they'd have to understand general game strategy and mechanics for movement on the map, and how 'Mechs work in order to take them out more efficiently or identify them faster. They also have to build their own 'Mechs, and use it to their advantage.

Generally, they know far more about the game than everyone else. They know what results in a win majority of the time, and know what does not, whether it be weapons or strategy. Paragons of virtue is a lot to say obviously, but competitive players are certainly more knowledgeable and better at the game than most people are. Not all competitive players are the best at communicating or critical thinking in terms of balance, just like all human beings. Finding the ones who communicate well enough and are willing to spend the time explaining things properly with as much understandable as possible should be the main goal.

[Pygar]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

I agree High Skill play is where you ferret out the weaknesses. Don't always agree that those same players are the best ones to propose the actual fixes, as the minmax looking glass is not what the majority play by. I think you need symbiotic beyond JUST your Comp crowd to fully balance a game.

I don't think that game balance should be entirely determined by high end competitive players either- I played some 12 mans as preliminaries to that last PGI tournament, and playing that "meta" was the least fun I've had in any video game in as long as I can remember. Reducing the game down to the point where only 10% or less of the mechs and weapons that are available are considered "viable" is not balance.

[Clint Steel]

I've had no problems with the clan mechs, they seem more durable, but have less pinpoint, which means it takes a lot longer for them to kill me. Wont know for sure until everyone can play them though.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

good stuff

Yeah, seems to confirm a lot of my general read on the situation.

It's a shame too. Because as I said, the Comp Crowd is vital to the health of the game, as the act as the "canary in the mineshaft" for balance breaks and exploits.

Unfortunately, a goodly number of the better players, don't really have any better ideas than the plebeian masses for actual fixes, and in fact often time, the best way to find working answers is to actually get that outside PoV, that hasn't got trapped by thinking "inside the box" which happens to all of us, no matter our level of gaming skill. Take Wispsy. Great, great great Light Pilot. (actually pretty dang good at anything he drove). Dropped with him a lot back in the day. Can't say he would be the first person I would look to for actual fixes though (or at least back then, recon, lol). Not a knock on him, just at least when he was with us, never seemed his "focus".

Anyhow, that is one issue this game has had for a long time. There is too adversarial a spirit between the "Masses", the "CompKids" and the "Devs", when what is needed is a more synergistic relationship, with more idea interchange.

ratgoat, on 22 June 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Jeez Heim, way to prod this nest of neckbeards.

The Timberwolf should not have JJs, end of story.

As opposed to the bear skin rug on your back?

[Pygar]

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

More appropriately, he seems to be pointing the finger at one meta-capable (new) chassis without much comment on the previous ones. "Nerf this chassis" does nothing to change the meta. If we nerf the Timber Wolf, it just ends up falling back into the general Clan pool of "We'll ignore this" while the regular IS Shadow Hawk/Cataphract/Victor pogo-sticking sniperfest continues. If there needs to be a nerf, it's to what allows the meta-tactic to begin with. That's accurate, midair fire.

BUT! Don't forget that sometimes they don't pop tart....

...sometimes they use the exact same 3 mechs fit with AC20s and medium lasers....because: variety!

[Bishop Steiner]

Pygar, on 22 June 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I don't think that game balance should be entirely determined by high end competitive players either- I played some 12 mans as preliminaries to that last PGI tournament, and playing that "meta" was the least fun I've had in any video game in as long as I can remember. Reducing the game down to the point where only 10% or less of the mechs and weapons that are available are considered "viable" is not balance.

I agree, but that is in fairness, not what many of those players want. It's what they use, because to compete, that is the toolbox PGI gave them. If they tried to run "non-Meta", it would have been tying their hand behind their backs against other clans that had no such compunctions. Because there ARE those in High Comp who only care about rubbing it in other peoples faces.

I generally have found a few Members of Lords and SJR I can have highly productive and enlightening conversations with.

And a few I would love to meet IRL in a bar to see if they were still that cocky sans Internet Anonymity. (But then, i have met plenty of non comp mouth breathers I feel the same way about).

What I would love, is to see some of these guys, like Adiuvo, Heim, etc, get used by Paul on the Test Server to try out many of the balance ideas, and see what actually passes muster in use, vs what breaks. Because if there are areas to be exploited, these guys WILL find it.

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Not all competitive players are the best at communicating or critical thinking in terms of balance, just like all human beings. Finding the ones who communicate well enough and are willing to spend the time explaining things properly with as much understandable as possible should be the main goal.

I agree to most of that, and yet, too often I see those individuals dismiss ideas that don't come from their "circle" too. That said, I still feel we need you guys to break stuff, so we can see what needs fixed. I do that with dive gear, and let the companies know what happened and how I broke it. I dare say I know more about the gear than most people. But it doesn't mean I am an engineer to redesign it, necessarily. (And hey, my "meta-testing" only results in life or death decisions, IRL, lol).

You can still have very useful input from those who are not the same skill level.

(and I'm still trying to figure out why fixing poptarting seems so beyond Paul's grasp, or even a lot of peoples, when the fix would literally take altering 1-2 lines of code.... but that is a different tale)

[Vanguard319]

wanderer, on 22 June 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

More appropriately, he seems to be pointing the finger at one meta-capable (new) chassis without much comment on the previous ones.

"Nerf this chassis" does nothing to change the meta. If we nerf the Timber Wolf, it just ends up falling back into the general Clan pool of "We'll ignore this" while the regular IS Shadow Hawk/Cataphract/Victor pogo-sticking sniperfest continues.

If there needs to be a nerf, it's to what allows the meta-tactic to begin with. That's accurate, midair fire.

Good point, it makes more sense to cause convergence to sway while on the move, increasing with movement speed. As for the typical jumpsniper, cause the arm convergence to sway upwards as the mech falls. This would prevent any mech from being 100% pinpoint accurate unless standing still, meaning players using those meta builds would have to use a "shoot and scoot" strategy to have a chance of dealing their full damage. We already have reticule bloom in many FPS, why not in MW:O?

[Bishop Steiner]

Vanguard319, on 22 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Good point, it makes more sense to cause convergence to sway while on the move, increasing with movement speed. As for the typical jumpsniper, cause the arm convergence to sway upwards as the mech falls. This would prevent any mech from being 100% pinpoint accurate unless standing still, meaning players using those meta builds would have to use a "shoot and scoot" strategy to have a chance of dealing their full damage. We already have reticule bloom in many FPS, why not in MW:O?

been asking that since CB..... but the "perfect aim purists" rebel at the thought. Even though it actually requires more thought and skill to succeed than than the current pick a pixel method in MWO.

[heimdelight]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

I am trying not to misinterpret anything , good sir. IN fact, I agree with most of your salient points. I simply am curious as to your thoughts on the already long overripe issue of Poptarting in general, and how to fix that, which I do believe should be even higher priority than the Timber Wolf, though the Timby certainly needs a heavy review.

Poptarting needs jump jet heat scaling and fall damage in place. When those were announced, I was really excited. I enjoy jumpsniping (I see poptarting as derogatory ) and don't think it needs to be completely rid of. It needs penalties, and the penalties being introduced are good for balancing jumpsnipers as well as 'Mechs that have jumpjets in better (because mechs with jumpjets are almost always better than mechs without them).

I sincerely do believe that giving ghost heat to two clan erppcs will solve the jumpsniping problem with Clan 'Mechs. I feel the 1xGauss 1xERPPC Summoner is more than balanced, and for 5 more tons you get 2xERPPC and 1xGauss, which is very powerful. Making ghost heat start at one PPC would make the summoner a more appealing choice, while balancing the timberwolf's jumpsniping ability. As for IS, the PPC may honestly need the same treatment. It's better than the Clan ERPPC and couples too well with the AC5s and Gauss.

I think jumpsniping with 25 pinpoint damage is significantly different than jumpsniping with 35 (Gauss) or 30 (AC5 with more DPS). I also don't like giving ghost heat to multiple weapons, like ghost heat to using a combination of PPCs/AC5s or PPCs/Gauss. The combos are fine, it's the amount of damage being done per volley without return fire. Or the damage being done at any distance while an enemy closes in.

[Pygar]

I also didn't say they shouldn't have any input- but it's hard to not suspect bias in their comments because they have more at stake. While part of me doesn't want the game to become flooded with T-wolves, I also don't want to see another tournament that is dominated by Shadow Hawks, Cataphracts, and Victors.

Out of the whole wall of text, this quote from the OP was the most telling to me: "What should happen to missiles?" like he hasn't seen anybody try to actually use them in so long he can't remember. So...."balance" wut?