110 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

If you're going to make an argument, you're going to have to pick a subset of the data to work with. Jman chose what is likely to be the most popular clan beam weapons to work with, and compared them to their nearest competitors to dispel a misconception that was being asserted frequently in other threads. Indeed there is no case to be made that a Clan medium or large pulse laser can beat an IS version in beam dps, but there is plenty more to be said on that subject too. That isn't going to be helpful to understanding the comparison between the 1 ton clan and IS laser options, though. If you broaden your argument to include too much data it just becomes noise.

Now on to your #2 point, it isn't always the beam duration that determines how long you are exposed to enemy fire. The limiting factor is quite likely to be the rate at which your mech can change speed/direction, or the nature of the barrier you are using for cover. In some cases, you may be right. I doubt that this is a substantial factor for heavies and assaults, though, unless you're trying to pop-tart with lasers.

For #3, ghost heat is a far smaller concern for clan, because you still have your small/medium lasers in one ghost heat group, and large in another, but the key difference is the medium laser is nearly as strong as the IS large laser. In that sense, you get to use up to 8 lasers at a time in a way that your IS competition just can't compete with. Give it a shot in a battlemaster or whatever if you want. that 270m range means you're skipping quite a lot of shots that a clan mech would be nailing. Ghost heat works out massively in favor of clan's weapons, because you can just about always design your lasers in a way that it is impossible to trigger ghost heat in the first place. I'm sure you're thinking about the Nova as I say this, but that's one special case, but you still get to decide how you're going to use all that firepower. If it were me, I'd just do this.

.

#1. There is a DPS case due to inner sphere pulse lasers having significantly higher DPS than clan pulse lasers. A person can accurately state inner sphere lasers have higher DPS if they're referring to pulse lasers.

#2. To target an enemy mech with lasers, your torso needs to be facing them. A torso directly facing enemies means being vulnerable to head shots, and having any specific component on your mech targetable. If you watched the tournament, you might have noticed dragon slayers immediately *torso twist* to face the right side of their mechs towards enemies after firing weapons. This is to limit which parts of their mech someone can target and the time duration in which they can be targeted. Clans having a 30% longer beam duration lengthens the amount of time their torso is directly facing the enemy, leaving them open and vulnerable. It is a disadvantage. I don't think you can disagree on that point.

#3. Simple scenario. Battlemaser with 5 ER large lasers versus a Warhawk with 5 clan ER large lasers.

A Clan ER Large Laser generates 8 heat with a 1.5 second beam duration.
An inner sphere ER Large Laser generates 8 heat with 1 second beam duration.

Let's say you want to chain fire large lasers, one-at-a-time.

You could chain fire 5 inner sphere ER LL's in 7 seconds (with .5 second ghost heat delay) without individual lasers overlapping resulting in a ghost heat malus.

To chain fire clan 5 ER LL's, it would take 9.5 seconds to avoid overlap & ghost heat.

Its harder to avoid ghost heat with clan lasers than it is with inner sphere lasers due to lengthened beam duration.

And no. Clan mechs are the only types that can split small, medium and large lasers into different groups. Its off topic and misleading to say only clan mechs can split lasers into different groups and inner sphere mechs can't do the same.

A lot of people make loadouts with the intent of avoiding ghost heat. There's no difference between inner sphere and clan mechs in that regard.

What is different is clan lasers having a longer beam duration making it tougher to avoid ghost heat.

[Jman5]

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

OP thread is a prime example why most of us (especially people like Jman5) are not qualified to be game designers.

Let's review the reasons why the above is true.

#1. Jman5 cherry picks examples that *MIGHT* support his claims inner sphere weapons are inferior to clan weapons and ignores all other precedents. Example of this -- Jman5 ignores inner sphere pulse lasers boasting half the beam duration of clan lasers. Inner sphere pulse lasers deal far higher DPS and this runs contrary to Jman's subjective and arbitrary beliefs. One might question Jman5's motives given his lackadaisical approach and stubborn refusal to acknowledge obvious facts that may run counter to his spiel.

I have a hypothesis of my own.

Jman5 picks two common weapon types with similar roles/names and compares their damage, beam duration, and DPS. He then presents his findings in a factual, sourced document to the forum. Jman5 purposefully decides to make a very narrow and focused topic specifically to avoid getting bogged down in the multitude of variables that exist in the game. Jman5 makes a conscious effort to avoid adding too much opinion or make any policy recommendation in his OP specifically to avoid the very conversation he is having right now.

Jman5 would point to the 40+ page clan balance thread above him as a prime example for why he chose to make a very narrow topic on one aspect of 4 lasers and why panacea threads quickly spin out of control.

Jman5 would also like to point out that the real reason his thread title says "lasers" and not "Clan ER medium laser and Clan ER small lasers" is because it made the title too cumbersome. He also wanted to avoid using acronyms in the title that might confuse readers. This is why Jman5 was very careful to point out that this was just about those two laser types and nothing more.

Edit: Also Jman5 finds it rather annoying that all the detractors in this thread refuse to talk about the subject at hand and instead keep trying to derail it by talking about everything else. This is not a thread about large lasers or pulse lasers. Anyone who read my post should very well know this. Maybe IS pulse lasers kick the pants off clan pulse lasers, but that's a non sequitur.

Edited by Jman5, 24 June 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Jman5, on 24 June 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I have a hypothesis of my own.

Jman5 picks two common weapon types with similar roles/names and compares their damage, beam duration, and DPS. He then presents his findings in a factual, sourced document to the forum. Jman5 purposefully decides to make a very narrow and focused topic specifically to avoid getting bogged down in the multitude of variables that exist in the game. Jman5 makes a conscious effort to avoid adding too much opinion or make any policy recommendation in his OP specifically to avoid the very conversation he is having right now.

Jman5 would point to the 40+ page clan balance thread above him as a prime example for why he chose to make a very narrow topic on one aspect of 4 lasers and why panacea threads quickly spin out of control.

Jman5 would also like to point out that the real reason his thread title says "lasers" and not "Clan ER medium laser and Clan ER small lasers" is because it made the title too cumbersome. He also wanted to avoid using acronyms in the title that might confuse readers. This is why Jman5 was very careful to point out that this was just about those two laser types and nothing more.

1. Inner sphere pulse lasers have higher DPS than any type of clan laser.

2. A person CAN accurately state: "inner sphere lasers have higher DPS," if they're referring to pulse lasers.

3. Your OP wasn't factual. It wasn't a comprehensive or even accurate overview of the topic. It was misleading and ignored many important facts, such as the fact that inner sphere pulse lasers do have higher DPS. The only areas you covered were ones that allowed you to mislead people into thinking clan lasers have higher DPS, which is only half true, at best. Half truth != factual.

4. I covered other aspects you missed. My post was still far shorter and more concise than your original post. There's no excuse for your failure to make an attempt. 40 pages aren't required. I did it easily within the span of a few paragraphs.

5. ER stands for extended range. It isn't an obscure or esoteric term players of this game wouldn't recognize nor be familiar with. How would it confuse them? Its more probable that your refusal to address the specifics lies moreso in you wanting to oversimplify the issue to pretend "clan lasers > inner sphere lasers". Then you label it "factual" to pretend its a scientifically validated point. But, that doesn't work. Because your entire spiel didn't amount to more than an oversimplified and generalized stereotype where you ignored the fact that inner sphere pulse lasers do inflict higher DPS. As well as other drawbacks of clan tech.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 24 June 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Jman5]

Zeratul, just answer me this:

Do you admit the clan er medium and small laser do more damage than their IS counterpart over the entire course of their beam duration?

Simple question. No need for paragraph long qualifiers.

[Targetloc]

Heat/damage is the kingmaker in MWO.

Yes, if a clan medium laser and a IS medium laser go head to head the clan medium is putting out very slightly more DPS per second, but if the IS mech twists away after his shot completes the clan mech is forced to waste heat and damage on sections he's not trying to hit.

That's a significant trade-off in the current meta.

[Atheus]

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

#1. There is a DPS case due to inner sphere pulse lasers having significantly higher DPS than clan pulse lasers. A person can accurately state inner sphere lasers have higher DPS if they're referring to pulse lasers.

Not quite. The Clan pulse lasers are mostly crap, but they don't lose to IS across the board either. The C-SPL has worse dps than the clan C-ERSL. So yes, the IS SL has better dps than the C-SPL, but they both have worse dps than the C-ERSL, which is half the weight and shoots almost twice as far, so if your objective is purely DPS and/or usable range, clan offers more with its standard ERSL. With the C-MPL you get more dps than the IS-MPL, but not by much, but they both win over the C-ERML in terms of dps. The C-LPL is absolute ****. It's a total mixed bag, but at the end of the day the clan gives you substantially better laser options overall.

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

#2. To target an enemy mech with lasers, your torso needs to be facing them. A torso directly facing enemies means being vulnerable to head shots, and having any specific component on your mech targetable. If you watched the tournament, you might have noticed dragon slayers immediately *torso twist* to face the right side of their mechs towards enemies after firing weapons. This is to limit which parts of their mech someone can target and the time duration in which they can be targeted. Clans having a 30% longer beam duration lengthens the amount of time their torso is directly facing the enemy, leaving them open and vulnerable. It is a disadvantage. I don't think you can disagree on that point.

Yep, but the other part of it is that while you're streaming damage, the guy you are shooting will generally be trying to twist away to give you an arm or ST. There are pros and cons to constantly streaming damage, not just cons.

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

#3. Simple scenario. Battlemaser with 5 ER large lasers versus a Warhawk with 5 clan ER large lasers.

A Clan ER Large Laser generates 8 heat with a 1.5 second beam duration.
An inner sphere ER Large Laser generates 8 heat with 1 second beam duration.

Let's say you want to chain fire large lasers, one-at-a-time.

You could chain fire 5 inner sphere ER LL's in 7 seconds (with .5 second ghost heat delay) without individual lasers overlapping resulting in a ghost heat malus.

To chain fire clan 5 ER LL's, it would take 9.5 seconds to avoid overlap & ghost heat.

Its harder to avoid ghost heat with clan lasers than it is with inner sphere lasers due to lengthened beam duration.

And no. Clan mechs are the only types that can split small, medium and large lasers into different groups. Its off topic and misleading to say only clan mechs can split lasers into different groups and inner sphere mechs can't do the same.

A lot of people make loadouts with the intent of avoiding ghost heat. There's no difference between inner sphere and clan mechs in that regard.

What is different is clan lasers having a longer beam duration making it tougher to avoid ghost heat.

I reject your scenario. Taking 5 ER large lasers on a battlemaster is only slightly less absurd than taking 5 C-ERLL on a Warhawk. Clan offers far better options than that which give you plenty of range and high alphas with no ghost heat. I don't mind comparing builds, but they have to be builds that could be considered logical.

Edit: Sorry Jman5, I'm guilty of straying off topic in your thread too! My bad.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Sug]

Rewrote OP to make sense to myself.

Title of this thread is unfortunate.



*****

Yesterday, I was looking at the statistics for some of the clan weapons when I realized that the longer beam duration does not properly balance Clan ER Medium Lasers and Clan ER Small Lasers to their IS counterparts.



Medium Lasers




Notice how the Clan ER Medium Laser stays ahead of the IS Medium Laser in damage throughout the entire beam duration? The lines don't line up exactly so Clan ER Medium Lasers do more damage and have an advantage and are therefore not balanced against IS Medium Laser by duration.




Small Lasers


Same as above, but even more noticeable.

DPS

"But Jman" you say, "the lower beam duration of some types of Inner Sphere Lasers gives Inner Sphere Lasers better DPS!"

Yes but only those particular lasers where that statement is true. The following IS Lasers have better DPS than their Clan Laser counterparts:

IS Large Laser
IL Large Pulse Laser
IS Medium Pulse Laser
IS Small Pulse Laser


The following Clan Lasers have better DPS than their IS Laser counterparts:

Clan ER Medium Laser
Clan ER Small Laser




I believe I have convincingly explained my opening statement that the Clan ER Medium Lasers and Clan ER Small Lasers are not properly balanced to their IS counterparts via the beam duration mechanic.

The truth is that the increased damage of some of the Clan Lasers has been properly counteracted by the inherent disadvantage of longer beam duration in most cases, thus making it irrelevant when you compare them to their IS counterpart.

Disclaimer

For the sake of argument I am going to claim that the increased range advantage of Clan ER Medium Lasers are canceled out by the increased heat requirements. IMO the range advantage is more valuable, but for simplicity I'll say it's a wash.

Clan ER Small Lasers have identical heat to IS Small Lasers which is troubling in it's own right, but I'll leave that to another thread.

Also, this thread applies to IS and Clan ER and standard Medium Lasers and Small lasers only. I make no claims about the other ones.

You can find all these stats on smurfy's here

******

Edited by Sug, 24 June 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Didn't read past the first page, so it may have been mentioned already, but it seems to me the entire premise of this thread is flawed, as no one (official) ever claimed that there was, or should be, parity between IS weapons and Clan weapons. Clan weapons have advantages in a number of places, and they should, as they are a higher tech level. But numerous factors work to balance those advantages. For instance higher beam time, which not only narrows the gap in DPS, but also (along with burst-fire Ac and ripple-fire missiles) increase necessary face-time. And in the engine limitations, one of the effects of which is slower torso twist on many mechs, and you get mechs that are horrible about spreading return damage.

From where I sit in the cockpits of my 100% home-grown IS mechs (so far), the balance between IS and Clan looks pretty darned good overall, when looked at as a whole and not point by point. Of course now comes the problem of trying to correct the inherent balance problems in the game, while maintaining that faction balance.

[Jman5]

OneEyed Jack, on 24 June 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Didn't read past the first page, so it may have been mentioned already, but it seems to me the entire premise of this thread is flawed, as no one (official) ever claimed that there was, or should be, parity between IS weapons and Clan weapons. Clan weapons have advantages in a number of places, and they should, as they are a higher tech level. But numerous factors work to balance those advantages. For instance higher beam time, which not only narrows the gap in DPS, but also (along with burst-fire Ac and ripple-fire missiles) increase necessary face-time. And in the engine limitations, one of the effects of which is slower torso twist on many mechs, and you get mechs that are horrible about spreading return damage.

From where I sit in the cockpits of my 100% home-grown IS mechs (so far), the balance between IS and Clan looks pretty darned good overall, when looked at as a whole and not point by point. Of course now comes the problem of trying to correct the inherent balance problems in the game, while maintaining that faction balance.

It is a fair point and one I thought about addressing when I first wrote this. Ultimately the wording came off as too dismissive and I left it out. If you believe clan tech should be better than IS counterparts, that's your opinion and I can't take that from you. I'm not here trying to change your mind on that point.

My point is simply to dispel a common argument made:
1. If you fire and hit with your Clan ER Medium laser for 1 second only, you will do more damage than an IS medium laser that fired for 1 second.
2. If you fire and hit with your Clan ER Small laser for 0.75 seconds, you will do more damage than an IS small laser that fired for 0.75 seconds.

So even though IS medium and IS small lasers have shorter beam duration they still do less damage in that same period of time than a clan er medium/small. Thus negating that disadvantage when comparing the two lasers.

Again though, if you think it's fine, then hats off to you. I'm simply educating people with factual information so that we can all come to more informed decisions about the state of balance. I'm somewhat concerned at a few of the people here who seem to think I'm somehow whining about balance, purposefully misleading people with word choice, Or implying that I can't mention numbers unless I talk about every single number in the game.

Edited by Jman5, 24 June 2014 - 07:46 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Jman5, on 24 June 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Zeratul, just answer me this:

Do you admit the clan er medium and small laser do more damage than their IS counterpart over the entire course of their beam duration?

Simple question. No need for paragraph long qualifiers.

I think you are right. On that. Clan ER medium lasers & clan ER small lasers both have higher DPS stats than inner sphere medium or small lasers.

But!

An inner sphere ER large laser can deal 9 DPS max. (Without factoring in cooldown, acceptable considering the cooldown for both weapons is equivalent) ER LL deals 9 damage over a duration of 1 second.

Whereas, by the same scaling, a clan ER large laser would only deal 7.5 DPS. Clan ER LL deals 11.25 damage over a duration of 1.5 seconds.

If you think about it, one might question how anyone might disprove the claim: "inner sphere lasers have higher DPS". Some inner sphere lasers DO have higher DPS, on paper!

Its a mixed bag & nothing clear cut could be said one way or the other.

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this thread. Usually, I manage to ignore people on this forum who say things I disagree with. It just so happens I disagree with 80% of the things I see posted on this forum and you happened to be the unlucky recipient of whatever pent up fustration I've accumulated as a result.

I guess the only reason I bothered is you made a chart that looked vaguely official looking. I didn't want a mob mentality to arise where people blindly believe statistics on the sole basis that they look like they're from an *official source*.

So, anywayz. Sorry for crashing your thread. Hopefully some good will come of this.

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

#1 Not quite. The Clan pulse lasers are mostly crap, but they don't lose to IS across the board either. The C-SPL has worse dps than the clan C-ERSL. So yes, the IS SL has better dps than the C-SPL, but they both have worse dps than the C-ERSL, which is half the weight and shoots almost twice as far, so if your objective is purely DPS and/or usable range, clan offers more with its standard ERSL. With the C-MPL you get more dps than the IS-MPL, but not by much, but they both win over the C-ERML in terms of dps. The C-LPL is absolute ****. It's a total mixed bag, but at the end of the day the clan gives you substantially better laser options overall.

#2 Yep, but the other part of it is that while you're streaming damage, the guy you are shooting will generally be trying to twist away to give you an arm or ST. There are pros and cons to constantly streaming damage, not just cons.

#3 I reject your scenario. Taking 5 ER large lasers on a battlemaster is only slightly less absurd than taking 5 C-ERLL on a Warhawk. Clan offers far better options than that which give you plenty of range and high alphas with no ghost heat. I don't mind comparing builds, but they have to be builds that could be considered logical.

Edit: Sorry Jman5, I'm guilty of straying off topic in your thread too! My bad.

#1 An IS.MPL has higher DPS than C.ERML or CMPL. An IS.SPL has higher DPS than a C.ERSL or CSPL. Ditto with IS.LPL.

Inner sphere pulse lasers have the highest DPS of any small, medium or large laser category. They have the highest DPS across the board. If you don't believe me visit smurfy & equip 1 laser of each type & see which DPS is highest.

I think you're missing the numbers based statistics that make inner sphere pulse lasers a real threat to clan tech. I'll give you an example.

Clan ER Medium Laser


Inner sphere medium pulse lasers


The key statistic you're looking for above is beam duration. An IS MPL delivers 6 damage in 0.6 seconds (beam duration). An C ERML delivers 7 damage in 1.3 seconds. They both deal near to equivalent damage. The main difference is the IS medium pulse laser delivers 100% of its damage @ near twice as fast. This translates to higher DPS and greater damage. Also greater accuracy, better twist defense and so on.

Comes out to something like this.



1. Inner sphere medium pulse laser deals 6 damage at 0.6 seconds.
2. Clan ER medium laser deals 7 damage at 1.3 seconds.

Conclusion: IS MPL has significantly higher DPS if at reduced range.

#2 Extended Range is probably the main advantage clan lasers possess. Of course, if you're brawling in a clan mech with lasers those advantages are worthless. Clan lasers are better suited for long range combat & sniping. Inner sphere lasers are better suited for brawling and short range combat. Inner sphere pulse lasers are especially suited for brawling and carry significant DPS advantages over clan lasers at 200m - 300m.

#3 It doesn't matter much if we're comparing 1 large laser or 5. The same principles apply. The longer the beam duration of an energy weapon the more likely it is you'll incur ghost heat penalties while using it. Clan lasers have higher beam durations across the board. This implies they're more prone towards generating ghost heat than inner sphere lasers.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 24 June 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Jman5, on 24 June 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

It is a fair point and one I thought about addressing when I first wrote this. Ultimately the wording came off as too dismissive and I left it out. If you believe clan tech should be better than IS counterparts, that's your opinion and I can't take that from you. I'm not here trying to change your mind on that point.

My point is simply to dispel a common argument made:
1. If you fire and hit with your Clan ER Medium laser for 1 second only, you will do more damage than an IS medium laser that fired for 1 second.
2. If you fire and hit with your Clan ER Small laser for 0.75 seconds, you will do more damage than an IS small laser that fired for 0.75 seconds.

So even though IS medium and IS small lasers have shorter beam duration they still do less damage in that same period of time than a clan er medium/small. Thus negating that disadvantage when comparing the two lasers.

Again though, if you think it's fine, then hats off to you. I'm simply educating people with factual information so that we can all come to more informed decisions about the state of balance. I'm somewhat concerned at a few of the people here who seem to think I'm somehow whining about balance, purposefully misleading people with word choice, Or implying that I can't mention numbers unless I talk about every single number in the game.

You do have a point, and I don't argue that. I think anyone with a vague understanding of basic math understands that point. Nor do I expect you to mention every number in the game. However, if you are going to claim to "prove" that the disadvantage is irrelevant, then you need to address ever number that is relevant. Most points can be "proven" if only the facts that support it are mentioned, no matter how slim, and any facts that refute it are brushed under the rug.

I'm not arguing the numbers with you. Nor am I arguing the point that C-ERML is a superior weapon to IS-ML. But you claim to prove that the longer burn is irrelevant as a disadvantage, and throw out factual numbers and your opinion as proof. My opinion is that the burn time is relevant as a disadvantage, because there are other factors at play that affect the impact.

Now, if both weapons could be placed on the same mech, so that all other factors were a wash, then yes. But as that isn't the case, I refute your claim of proof.

[Atheus]

I Zeratul I, on 24 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

I think you are right. On that. Clan ER medium lasers & clan ER small lasers both have higher DPS stats than inner sphere medium or small lasers.

But!

An inner sphere ER large laser can deal 9 DPS max. (Without factoring in cooldown, acceptable considering the cooldown for both weapons is equivalent) ER LL deals 9 damage over a duration of 1 second.

Whereas, by the same scaling, a clan ER large laser would only deal 7.5 DPS. Clan ER LL deals 11.25 damage over a duration of 1.5 seconds.

If you think about it, one might question how anyone might disprove the claim: "inner sphere lasers have higher DPS". Some inner sphere lasers DO have higher DPS, on paper!

Its a mixed bag & nothing clear cut could be said one way or the other.

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this thread. Usually, I manage to ignore people on this forum who say things I disagree with. It just so happens I disagree with 80% of the things I see posted on this forum and you happened to be the unlucky recipient of whatever pent up fustration I've accumulated as a result.

I guess the only reason I bothered is you made a chart that looked vaguely official looking. I didn't want a mob mentality to arise where people blindly believe statistics on the sole basis that they look like they're from an *official source*.

So, anywayz. Sorry for crashing your thread. Hopefully some good will come of this.



#1 An IS.MPL has higher DPS than C.ERML or CMPL. An IS.SPL has higher DPS than a C.ERSL or CSPL. Ditto with IS.LPL.

Inner sphere pulse lasers have the highest DPS of any small, medium or large laser category. They have the highest DPS across the board. If you don't believe me visit smurfy & equip 1 laser of each type & see which DPS is highest.

I think you're missing the numbers based statistics that make inner sphere pulse lasers a real threat to clan tech. I'll give you an example.

Clan ER Medium Laser


Inner sphere medium pulse lasers


The key statistic you're looking for above is beam duration. An IS MPL delivers 6 damage in 0.6 seconds (beam duration). An C ERML delivers 7 damage in 1.3 seconds. They both deal near to equivalent damage. The main difference is the IS medium pulse laser delivers 100% of its damage @ near twice as fast. This translates to higher DPS and greater damage. Also greater accuracy, better twist defense and so on.

Comes out to something like this.



1. Inner sphere medium pulse laser deals 6 damage at 0.6 seconds.
2. Clan ER medium laser deals 7 damage at 1.3 seconds.

Conclusion: IS MPL has significantly higher DPS if at reduced range.

#2 Extended Range is probably the main advantage clan lasers possess. Of course, if you're brawling in a clan mech with lasers those advantages are worthless. Clan lasers are better suited for long range combat & sniping. Inner sphere lasers are better suited for brawling and short range combat. Inner sphere pulse lasers are especially suited for brawling and carry significant DPS advantages over clan lasers at 200m - 300m.

#3 It doesn't matter much if we're comparing 1 large laser or 5. The same principles apply. The longer the beam duration of an energy weapon the more likely it is you'll incur ghost heat penalties while using it. Clan lasers have higher beam durations across the board. This implies they're more prone towards generating ghost heat than inner sphere lasers.

Look, this is a really well put together analysis here and I respect that, but unfortunately you're just not telling me anything I don't already know, and I disagree with the significance of your conclusion. If beam duration is everything to you, then yeah the IS-MPL is dynamite, but I've used 7xIS-MPL on my HBK-4P quite a lot recently. It's a ***** to get into position where I can actually use them without losing half or more of the damage to range attenuation, which sends their heat efficiency through the floor. I'll take a 450m 7 damage C-ERML any day, and live with the long beam duration, especially if I'm trying to boat them, because a clan mech has better DHS to cool that **** down. It's just a better platform for a selection with enough premium lasers to suit my needs with spades.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Look, this is a really well put together analysis here and I respect that, but unfortunately you're just not telling me anything I don't already know, and I disagree with the significance of your conclusion. If beam duration is everything to you, then yeah the IS-MPL is dynamite, but I've used 7xIS-MPL on my HBK-4P quite a lot recently. It's a ***** to get into position where I can actually use them without losing half or more of the damage to range attenuation, which sends their heat efficiency through the floor. I'll take a 450m 7 damage C-ERML any day, and live with the long beam duration, especially if I'm trying to boat them, because a clan mech has better DHS to cool that **** down. It's just a better platform for a selection with enough premium lasers to suit my needs with spades.

1-2 LPL's and 1-2 MPL's might be a decent alternative to straight MPL or SPL, some days.

1-2 large lasers with a mix of SPL or MPL might be another decent loadout.

That way you won't rely 100% on getting inside 200m & can chip away at them outside 500m.

.

[Rushmoar]

You've fired your Clan Med laser 6,304 times since last Tuesday?

This made me laugh a bit. Have you ever taken more then 1 laser type at 1 time on any given mech? If you alpha 4 medium lasers at once, did you not just fire your medium lasers 4 times? Also I'm pretty sure damage is not registered in whole seconds and damage in whole numbers. Just fan your lasers across any target and you will see the target reg damage even if for less then a tenth of a second. But don't quote me on that just pulling that my observations in game. Just saying So I think the stats are pretty accurate. If you register the smallest amount of damage then you have a hit. And finally I am in agreement with the argument here duration is not a disadvantage because c-er lasers, more to the point of the mediums for example, do higher damage. .30 sec. for possible 2 damage more is a yes. what if 4 mediums .30 sec. for 8 damage is also a yes.
Cheers Mates. Also, I have no clue how to pull a quote correctly. Such a noob at these forum tools.

Edited by Rushmoar, 25 June 2014 - 04:48 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Maybe off topic but a few things that irk me when this stuff is discussed.

1. Clan double heat sinks only take 2 crits, you can load more of them on a mech as well as having lower weight and crits etc on other things means that the extra heat hat is given from clan weapons is largely negated - and that is before we get to the extra range factor.

2. People seem to assume that people always duel. As in a one on one fight. When I use IS lasers I try not to target the guy who is twisting away, I am hitting the target that I know I can pack the most damage into because he is not as aware of my presence as the other guy (not always of course). So you cannot assume the beam will ALWAYS be spreading everywhere because pilots are piloting defensively. There are a huge number of scenarios where that added beam duration will not matter and you will pack mot of that damage into the right areas about as much as an IS Laser.

I do not care much about the clan tech, they seem marginally better across the board but it is how this fits into the context of CW I care more about.

[Atheus]

I Zeratul I, on 25 June 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

1-2 LPL's and 1-2 MPL's might be a decent alternative to straight MPL or SPL, some days.

1-2 large lasers with a mix of SPL or MPL might be another decent loadout.

That way you won't rely 100% on getting inside 200m & can chip away at them outside 500m.

.

The builds you suggest are completely outclassed by any Clan energy boat, which can outalpha, outdps, outbeamdps, outrange, out-heat efficiency your 9-18 tons of LPL/MPL's with a mere 6 tons of C-ERML's using the same amount of crit space. If you designate 14 tons and 2 more crit slots you get 2 C-ERLL's too, making the IS version look pathetic.

But aside from that, even if you don't have the clan pack, 7xMPL+2ML is the monster it is because of the 52 damage pinpoint alpha. Clan laserboat does the exact same thing but with even more damage, but from >2x as far away, and without the fragility of side torso death.

Edited by Atheus, 26 June 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

God, I love threads like these. This forum needs more science.

[ratgoat]

You're doing god's work here Jman...keep fighting the good fight!

[Lily from animove]

Jman5, on 23 June 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Yesterday, I was looking at the statistics for some of the clan weapons when I realized that the longer beam duration does not properly balance Clan ER Medium Lasers and Clan ER Small Lasers to their IS counterparts. Let me explain...

Medium Lasers

A Clan Medium Laser does 7 damage and has a 1.3 beam duration. This means that it takes 1.3 seconds for the full 7 damage to apply. An Inner Sphere medium laser does 5 damage, with a 1 second beam duration.

However, if you do the math this means that a clan medium laser is going to do 5.38 damage per second of beam duration, while an inner sphere medium laser does only 5 damage per second of beam duration.


Notice how the Clan laser stays ahead of the IS laser in damage throughout the entire beam duration?

Small Lasers

A clan er small laser does 5 damage with a beam duration of 1 second. an IS small laser does 3 damage with a beam duration of 0.75 seconds. This gives clans 5 damage per second of beam duration and the IS 4 damage per second of beam duration.


Same as above, but even more noticeable.

DPS

"But Jman" you snivel, "the lower beam duration gives Inner Sphere better DPS!"

Aha, not so fast young padawan. Clan ERML has 1.63 DPS vs IS 1.25. Clan ERSL has 1.54 DPS vs IS 1 DPS. However let's take this even further. let's assume that you only get the exact same amount of time on target as the IS player over an extended period of time. So a full beam duration on the IS versus a partial on Clans.

To the Mathmobile!

• With a partial 1 second beam duration the Clan ER ML will have a 1.252 DPS
  
• With a full 1 second beam duration the IS ML will have 1.25 DPS

Practically identical! So there is no DPS advantage for IS even if we assume clans can never get their full beam duration off and are just holding down the fire button at a target which keeps mysteriously vanishing and reappearing exactly every 4 seconds.





And Small Lasers?

• Clan ER SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1.15 DPS
  
• IS SL with 0.75 second beam duration: 1 DPS

A small, but noticeable advantage for the clan er SL.






I believe I have convincingly refuted the commonly held belief that longer beam duration gives IS lasers an advantage in this field. The truth is that the increased damage the Clan Lasers have counteract the disadvantage of the longer beam duration, thus making it irrelevant when you compare them to their IS counterpart.

Disclaimer

For the sake of argument I am going to claim that the increased range advantage of clan ER ML lasers are canceled out by the increased heat requirements. IMO the range advantage is more valuable, but for simplicity I'll say it's a wash.

Clan ER SL has identical heat to IS SL which is troubling in it's own right, but I'll leave that to another thread.

Also, this thread applies to Medium Lasers and Small lasers only. I make no claims about the other ones.

You can find all these stats on smurfy's here

yes clan lasers are supposed to be stronger, and the medium alsers beamduration is ok. You example is a bad abstraction for laboratory use cases which do not reflect the truth.

No.1 lights are fast holding 1,3 s beam on them is a lot harder than 1second, Because if your Torso isn't fats enough in turn speed, you won't be able to hold the whole beam on them. But yet, you have to pay the full heat costs for this beam. IS can run cooler here a LOT, So you cna easily throw out 20 mediums with an IS emch without overhating, while the CLanner is heavily limited. And once, you have to wait for cooldowns, your DPS do drastically sink. Do some more realistic science, and calculate how long an Clanner can sustain such a fire compared to an IS mech

No.2 Exposing Time. 0,3 seconds make a significant difference in battle. The difference in which twisting can change the opponents box you are able to hit. So when the clanner naturaly is using the same behavior as an IS mech, he may be possible to behave the same, but he won't be able to dodge fire. Why? Except from the Summoner, all Clanner Torsi are easy to be hit even if turned for 90°, while most IS mechs can totally cover their CT with Side Torso or Arms.

So is a big Tankk better than a soldier? Possibly not if the fighting environment is a swamp. Because ther eis a bit more than just the plain Laboratory comparison that defines the strenght of a weapon.

Oh and btw, you left out soem toher lasers, like all Pulse lasers and especially the CERLL vs IS LL/ERLL why that? (propably because they do not fit into your theroy right? - bad biased science is bad biased science)

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 June 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[Felio]

It's a good observation, but being unable to change structure/armor/engine throws a wrench in everything. There are permanent heat sinks, too, but that's probably not a big deal when we're talking about lasers.

So how does this fit into the big picture? Can a clan laser boat bring more firepower to the party than an IS laser boat with equal tonnage and speed?