513 replies to this topic

[Atheus]

The debate over whether clan tech is P2W has been raging for days now. I finally realized that it's quite easy to prove the P2W status of clan tech. This line of reasoning was inspired by the intensely popular Dragon Slayer Victor.

• Strong mechs have a greater chance of winning than weak mechs.
  
• Players generally prefer a strong mech to a weak mech.
  
• Players will attempt to design the strongest mech they can to suit their current play style, or the play style they would like to adopt.
  
• In a competition setting, players will choose the mech they feel gives their team the best chance of winning.
  
• Pay to Win means that something that is only available for cash can provide an advantage that can not be duplicated by an equivalent non-cash item.
  
• Providing a date at which a pay-to-win item will be available for in-game currency does not change the pay-to-win nature of said item in the present.

A Dragon Slayer Victor is very similar in hard points to the VTR-9S, but in a competition setting you'll see almost exclusively DS variants. The reasons are obvious to anyone familiar with the chassis. They're amazingly good pop-tarts, and pop-tarts win competitions. But the reason they choose the DS over the 9S is because of the different positioning of the ballistic hard points. The pilots understand that having the weapons all on the right side is an advantage, and so as not to fall behind other pilots who have that advantage, they purchase and use the DS. This example is funny since they are not paying to win, they're paying to not lose to the other guys who paid to win. Their choice of the DS makes it impossible to deny that they are paying for advantages that are not available for C-Bills. Therefore, by choosing that mech to use to win tournaments, they confirm that in their most honest analysis, their best option is the DS, therefore confirming their own consent to PGI's pay to win game structure.

Stepping away from the tournament, let's have a look at Clan tech. It is available immediately for cash, but will gradually become available in the C-Bill market between August and November. That's 2 months before the first clan mech is available for C-Bills, and 5 until the last is released.

Clan tech has many unique attributes. Nearly all attributes deviate from IS tech, and while most of them are pros, some are cons. The question is how do we figure out which is better overall? Well fortunately we don't need to come up with a consensus on which is better. Individual players will decide the answer based on their own estimations of what will best suit their play style. Some will be wrong, and make bad choices, but some will be right, and make good choices. Of the ones who are right, some will choose IS, and others will choose Clan. I can not irrefutably prove the existence of players who will both choose clan and be correct, but I do feel it is a reasonable assertion that such a player can exist, and most likely does exist — possibly in large numbers.

I'd like to point out that it does not matter whether this hypothetical player is highly skilled, or modestly skilled. The question is whether Clan tech will improve their ability to kill enemies and/or win matches. If they can build a mech that is better suited to killing/winning using their play style with Clan tech than they can build using IS tech, they serve as living proof that Clan tech can indeed provide an advantage to certain players that currently can not be acquired with C-Bills.

Is this Clan advantage universal to all players? Maybe not. It doesn't particularly matter, though. Some players may find Clan tech does not suit their play style. That does not mean that other players can not boost their combat potential using clan tech. Thus, whether or not you feel you can personally benefit from Clan tech, you should absolutely recognize that it is a pay to win element that will continue to be just that until all of it is available for C-Bills.

[Bad Haircut]

Should re-name this thread to "I believe these facts support my opinion" IMO.

[Scratx]

Another one of these, right on schedule. *yawn* Time to go to bed.

[FupDup]

Hero mechs: Currently, the only ones that can even remotely qualify are the Dragon Slayer, Misery, and Ember. In those cases, their respective strengths are mostly due to coincidentally exploiting certain flaws in the game's design (i.e. convergence for the first two, fairly hard to sustain 6 MLas Jenners for the third one). If the game were better balanced, they wouldn't be generally better than their C-Bill counterparts.


Clan mechs: The only one that qualifies is probably the Mad Cat, which is only for the trending 2 CERPPC + CGauss loadout. The others are generally at least slightly worse than the best IS mechs in their classes, or roughly on-par.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Thought the DS became popular because it was the only one left that could turn worth a hoot. Frankly some of the others have better mounts. But are atlas matched in speed now. even though they are many tons lighter.

[Atheus]

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Hero mechs: Currently, the only ones that can even remotely qualify are the Dragon Slayer, Misery, and Ember. In those cases, their respective strengths are mostly due to coincidentally exploiting certain flaws in the game's design (i.e. convergence for the first two, fairly hard to sustain 6 MLas Jenners for the third one). If the game were better balanced, they wouldn't be generally better than their C-Bill counterparts.


Clan mechs: The only one that qualifies is probably the Mad Cat, which is only for the trending 2 CERPPC + CGauss loadout. The others are generally at least slightly worse than the best IS mechs in their classes, or roughly on-par.

Whether their advantages are accidental or intentional, when players purchase them to exploit the advantageous nature of their attributes, they are indisputably paying for an advantage.

[Stonefalcon]

Nauht, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Only proof that opinions are really like arseholes.

couldn't agree more.

[FupDup]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Whether their advantages are accidental or intentional, when players purchase them to exploit the advantageous nature of their attributes, they are indisputably paying for an advantage.

Which is why the underlying causes of their advantages should be remedied.

[Roland]

FupDup, on 24 June 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Hero mechs: Currently, the only ones that can even remotely qualify are the Dragon Slayer, Misery, and Ember. In those cases, their respective strengths are mostly due to coincidentally exploiting certain flaws in the game's design (i.e. convergence for the first two, fairly hard to sustain 6 MLas Jenners for the third one). If the game were better balanced, they wouldn't be generally better than their C-Bill counterparts.


Clan mechs: The only one that qualifies is probably the Mad Cat, which is only for the trending 2 CERPPC + CGauss loadout. The others are generally at least slightly worse than the best IS mechs in their classes, or roughly on-par.

This seems to be a pretty good summary of the problem areas.

It's certainly no all clan tech, or all clan mechs... and frankly, most of the hero mechs are garbage.

It's kind of problematic though that a few of the mechs behind paywalls are clearly some of the top contenders.

[Vassago Rain]

6 month paywall on the madcats, bros.

Hope you like waiting.

[cSand]

Hey, here's a newsflash

Pay some cash if you want the new shinies right away

IF you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but make sure you STFU and wait while the rest of who bankroll your f**king experience get rewarded (rightly so) for it

[Kilo 40]

that long rambling wall o'text didn't "prove" anything.

[Atheus]

Roland, on 24 June 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

This seems to be a pretty good summary of the problem areas.

It's certainly no all clan tech, or all clan mechs... and frankly, most of the hero mechs are garbage.

It's kind of problematic though that a few of the mechs behind paywalls are clearly some of the top contenders.

You are looking at it from the perspective of who can rise to the top. It doesn't particularly matter whether clan tech helps anyone reach the top. If it can help them rise at all, they are paying for an advantage.

Kilo 40, on 24 June 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

that long rambling wall o'text didn't "prove" anything.

Pretty sure it did, but if you're so certain, go ahead and show me where I went wrong.

cSand, on 24 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Hey, here's a newsflash

Pay some cash if you want the new shinies right away

IF you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but make sure you STFU and wait while the rest of who bankroll your f**king experience get rewarded (rightly so) for it

This is not something you should be saying to a Founder. It makes you look like a jerk.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Tezcatli]

Proof would be if someone gathered high end players. Have them do a few matches in a row. Then swap factions and do a few more. Then get some data along with the opinions of the players.

But even then. They would only run the most optimal builds and would be proof of equality among a few builds.

Getting some random players who play less than optimal builds in a few IS versus Clan matches would help.

Edited by Tezcatli, 24 June 2014 - 09:17 PM.

[Jabilac]

Just wanted to throw my two cents in but I generally run in the Hero mechs I purchased. I don't I feel they give me an advantage in gameplay or allow me to achieve a build I couldn't with the "Free" options. I have a better K/D and W/L ration in a 3D then I do in my Ilya but I run the Ilya more because I paid actual money for it and I get a bonus to my C-Bills earned. Thats it. Same for Misery actually. Stats say I'm better in a 3F but time logged goes to Misery.

[Atheus]

Tezcatli, on 24 June 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Proof would be if someone gathered high end players. Have them do a few matches in a row. Then swap factions and do a few more. Then get some data along with the opinions of the players.

But even then. They would only run the most optimal builds and would be proof of equality among a few builds.

Getting some random players who play less than optimal builds in a few IS versus Clan matches would help.

That would do nothing to determine whether mid-range or low-end players are paying to win. If I were designing a game, I'd worry about all my customers.

Edited by Atheus, 24 June 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[Corralis]

Clan Mech's are not pay to win, they're pay for options. I want more options in how I play this game and therefore I bought some Clan Mech's. They don't make me win so they're not pay to win.

[Vassago Rain]

Tezcatli, on 24 June 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Proof would be if someone gathered high end players. Have them do a few matches in a row. Then swap factions and do a few more. Then get some data along with the opinions of the players.

It's generally agreed by the top tier players that madcats with jets are exactly like dragon slayers, and there's no reason not to run 3 as your heavies.

There's absolutely no need to collect any data when everything's this obvious.

Corralis, on 24 June 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

Clan Mech's are not pay to win, they're pay for options. I want more options in how I play this game and therefore I bought some Clan Mech's. They don't make me win so they're not pay to win.

Paying to win doesn't mean you literally win by default. Not even aimbot suites for counter-strike instantly win the game for you.

[Atheus]

Jabilac, on 24 June 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Just wanted to throw my two cents in but I generally run in the Hero mechs I purchased. I don't I feel they give me an advantage in gameplay or allow me to achieve a build I couldn't with the "Free" options. I have a better K/D and W/L ration in a 3D then I do in my Ilya but I run the Ilya more because I paid actual money for it and I get a bonus to my C-Bills earned. Thats it. Same for Misery actually. Stats say I'm better in a 3F but time logged goes to Misery.

You may not be paying for an advantage, then.

[Tezcatli]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

It's generally agreed by the top tier players that madcats with jets are exactly like dragon slayers, and there's no reason not to run 3 as your heavies.

There's absolutely no need to collect any data when everything's this obvious.



Paying to win doesn't mean you literally win by default. Not even aimbot suites for counter-strike instantly win the game for you.

Yeah. But I mean actual videos. Not some second hearsay about what top players think.