No worries. I was playing KSP, pillaging science from Minmus after restarting with all my mods removed in preparation for 0.24.
For those who don't know what KSP is.... well, firstly, people who play KSP are better people than those who don't. Fundamentally.
Kerbal Space Program. Admittedly not everyone likes that sort of game - specifically because not all people are good, interesting, worthwhile people. Those who are like and play KSP.
People talk about challenging in MW:O. Pfft. Challenging is a successful manned landing and return on Eve or Moho on stock. Even more hardcore is playing with no saves/restarts - just dead Kerbonauts because you miscalculated how much dV you need on an injection burn and can't decelerate enough for capture at Moho because you set up for too steep of an approach. Or when you failed to strut your lander correctly and after a 7 hour long (real time) manned mission somewhere, you're bringing your lander back into Kerbin and when the chutes go into full deployment it rips them or what they're attached to off your lander, sending your brave Kerbonauts plummeting to their deaths, minutes away from safety after weeks of dodging death in the cold void of space.
So... yeah. No worries. Catch you around tomorrow or the day after. It would be even better if we can catch Mcgral18 on and test multiple people in multiple mechs to even out any skill differential. I'm telling you, the TW is the un-powdered back of the pimphand for 1v1.
As a scientis, the only true way to test if something is OP would be to take the human pilot out of the equation. Having real people introduces error, this is due in large to human nature of not being precise about anything %100 of the time. To make this test complete valid, a computer simulation would need to be run inputting all the metrics of comparable mechs and running a mass comparison. Let the computer run a series of 1000 test between say Timberwolf with dual ppc and guass versus Cataphract with dual ppc and guass for starters. Then expand to Timberwolf versus Dragons layer or 733C. After those test feel free to design IS mechs with similar weapons loadouts as you see fit. The comparisons would have to show what percentage if these two mechs fought who would win most. But look forward to seeing a video of the results you come up with.
You have never presented real numbers, and the burden of proof lies firmly at your feet sir. You claim something is out of round "because you said so" and due to this fact, you claim it should be nerfed.
Clan mechs are already nerfed...HEAVILY. Sure, they put out high DPS, however, they only have a few viable PP FLD builds, everything else is high DOT DPS. Which is a MASSIVE difference...
As for your claims of turning radius, let us have a look from Smurfy's with the in game numbers taken out shall we?
VTR - (XL360) 80 kph 51.59 Deg/s (90 deg Twist)
TW - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90Deg Twist -20% for S model Side Torsos)
ON1 - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)
Notice anything? Anything glaring (besides the lights who are at a disadvantage in Turning and Speed)?
Amazingly, ALL THE IS MECHS AND CLAN MECHS HAVE THE SAME TORSO TWIST (relatively), TURNING AND SPEED WITH THE SAME SIZE ENGINE!?
WHAT? But Clan mechs are OP right?
Oh, wait, IS mechs can choose to carry more firepower over speed...clan mechs do not get that opportunity.
THAT is the balancing factor of the clans, THAT is also why the weapons are balanced considering their weight.
OMNI construction rules are the balancing factor...the TW might be in a pretty close to right place in terms of weight versus speed, however, it is absolutely NOT OP in terms of agility.
Add in the fact that the hitboxes on the TW are not great, nor are they terrible, and people are screaming bloody murder because no one has the balls to run a CTF with XL 340 with similar mobility.
Now, consider one of the most popular comp builds for the CTF...2xGauss + ERPPC, which is a total of 4T ammo + 30T Gauss + 7 Tons ERPPC + 1T JJ.
You cannot even fit 2 Gauss Rifles and ammo on the TW, much less the rest of that. That is literally 42T of weapons and equipment and still reasonably well armored to boot, and still mobile enough.
Also, if you come back with..."but the TW does 89 kph" one more time I call BS. The mech is STUCK with that engine. Whether you love it or hate it, that is what it is...and you will NEVER get the speed changed for the engine. PGI would have to change the entire coding for their engine formula for every mech. Also, consider this, if you change the speed on the TW, then EVERY OTHER MECH IN GAME will also become slower.
As for the hitboxes, they really are pretty average. The CT is just a tad smaller than the catapult, but what does that really say? You can easily core them out...if you twist well the massive ST will also get blown off easily.
The TW seems OP compared to other clan mechs because the DOT nature of the weapons makes it harder to take down. The PP FLD IS mech builds have zero trouble with them. Which is what you guys supposedly thrive in...so how is it that I am explaining something you already know?
Besides, in the 12 man pub queue you cannot take more than 3, private lobbies may allow flexibility, but you would have to sacrifice assaults that can carry A LOT more firepower to run more TWs. Even then Leagues have tonnage and Chassis limitations that prevent you from doing so if you wanted.
Now, I have set forth my argument, let me see your math...or can you not provide any real proof that the TW is OP as you claim? I am betting on the latter, as it seems to be the modus operandi of people such as yourself. Claim something you cannot prove because you want us to "trust you" or because you "think this is so..." even though the rest of us "simply cannot see it".
Let me preface this by saying that I do not find Clan 'Mechs to be overpowered, that I only play Inner Sphere, that I am in a small Merc unit, and that I've also played against your unit with both wins and losses. I also agree that skill is the biggest determining factor in who wins and loses (and before anybody says it, communication is a skill).
I find your claim to be of the engineering persuasion to be dubious at best and insulting at worst, especially after having read the above farce.
You have failed to set up any sort of control in your analysis of Inner Sphere versus Clan machines. Were those IS engines XL or STD? Did you max the armor and then add weapons, or did you add the weapons and then fit armor? Did you add both Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous to the IS 'Mechs, or did you only outfit one of the two?
Your numerical analysis also focuses on a single datum that is irrelevant because A.) nobody is disputing it and B.) it's a faction-agnostic detail that is merely a function of engine size versus tonnage. Torso twist rate? Really?
Worst of all, you are cherry-picking items that are different between Inner Sphere and Clan 'Mechs in order to paint a biased picture that says "look, these trade-offs are equitable!" They are not. You can't go off on a tear about Inner Sphere being able to choose among speed, protection, and firepower when a Clan 'Mech gets to have all three because the weapons weigh less, those weapons do more damage, those weapons have almost double the range, the 'Mechs run cooler, and they get a free chassis-upgrade in terms of crit-slots. Those are not subjective things determined by the "seat of the pants," they are objective facts supported by numbers in the game and in Smurfy. Let's have a look at just the Timberwolf, shall we?
My controls are as follows:
I max armor first
I only place Endo-Steel on Inner Sphere 'Mechs (since Clans lose only 14 critslots with both Endo and Ferro)
Fastest XL engine in IS (since the fastest is only as fast as the TBR anyway)
Combine two ERPPC and two Gauss and you get a 45 point alpha for Clans (35 pinpoint, 10 splash) and a 35-point alpha for Inner Sphere.
Free tonnage/critslots on an unarmed TBR: 27.46/33 (shocker, TBR has more free critslots than anybody else!)
Free tonnage/critslots on an unarmed CTF: 32.43/28
Free tonnage/critslots on an unarmed ON1: 33.06/29
Free tonnage/critslots on an unarmed VTR: 27.06/28
Free tonnage/critslots on an unarmed HGN: 49.06/28 (shocker part 2, a 90 ton 'Mech has more tons to spare than a 75 ton 'Mech!)
Now here are their speeds with their fastest engine sizes:
TBR: 81.0/89.1
CTF: 78.7/86.6
ON1: 77.8/85.5
VTR: 81.0/89.1
HGN: 58.5/68.3
And here are their total armor values:
TBR: 462
CTF: 434
ON1: 462
VTR: 494
HGN: 558
Now, let's do some math!
Two C-ERPPC and a C-Gauss with 25 rounds and a single Jump Jet is 27.5 tons. It also requires 14 slots.
Two IS ERPPC and a Gauss with 25 rounds and a single Jump Jet is 32.5 tons on all of the 'Mechs except the ON1 (no JJs) and the HGN (Class I vs Class II), where it's 31.5 tons and 33.5 tons, respectively. The cost in slots is 17.
Only the ON1 and the HGN can make this load-out work without compromise. So what are those compromises for everybody else?
The TBR has to shave off two points of armor. Such a sacrifice! The CTF has to shave off four points of armor. Again, no big deal. The VTR has to drop down to a smaller engine AND shave off armor...that's a big deal. This isn't even the whole picture, though. The IS 'Mechs are all running XL engines and as such are dead if any side-torso is destroyed. What's more, only the VTR is running as fast as the TBR even with the XL and it still can't mount these weapons at that speed.
At the end of the day, the ratios (alpha:ton, alpha:speed, speed:ton, armour:ton, and armour:speed) are all simply better on the TBR. Heat dissipation is better in most cases, too, While pilot skill is the most determining factor, there is something to be said for the equipment as well. I drive Locusts. In a brawl, I don't expect to be much use if there are Firestarters and Jenners around being driven just as well as I can drive my Locust because the only skill I can use to survive in that instance is knowledge of positioning. In this case, positioning myself away from harm to bide my time and strike. Doesn't work, because the team needs my firepower then and there (yes, Locusts can bring in some serious firepower). In comp play, if I decided I wanted to bring my JJ BJ-3 with twin ERPPCs, I'd be outclassed by the SHD-2Hs being fielded by the opposition in any engagement. If I wanted to bring a CTF-3D as loaded above, I'd be outclassed by the TBRs.
tl;dr: Anybody who can pilot a CTF-3D in comp play will do better in a TBR. The math above says so.
P.S. your hypothetical twin-gauss+PPC CTF-3D with 4 tons of ammo is a lumbering target that will get crushed in the fast-paced, jumping meta brawl. It requires an XL245 to run at a mere best of 62.4 kph. It is not even slightly competitive when put up against an equally piloted TBR, HGN, or VTR.
Completely agree with Gyrok (OP), couldn't have said it any better. /salute!
Too add my 2 cents (or paragraphs, if you will) to the topic: It's been like that in all mp games I've played, give it enough time invested and practice, you will be able to do well with any chassis or build, not just the meta stuff. Actually, those running meta or clinging to only one type of build to master it, are in my humble opinion less in touch with the game mechanics than those that explore it and try more diverse approach, either for fun, challenge, or just a change of feel, it all comes down to confidence and knowledge of the game that you have. You can make work even a slightly less powerful chassis if you know how to pilot and work with the team, because this game is not just about your build but how you put it to use in convergence with the rest of the 11 players on your side.
This is not just another "clans are not OP" threads, but the OP has put out some very intricate points, even tough raising the "what is skill anyway" question again, which is not really measurable by any stretch of the imagination, it all comes down to the time you invested and how open minded you are to explore the game mechanics and start thinking outside of the box and working on your "6th sense" on the battlefield (also known as situational awareness), which is one of the hardest skills to master, but makes you a much better player in the long run.
Completely agree with Gyrok (OP), couldn't have said it any better. /salute!
Too add my 2 cents (or paragraphs, if you will) to the topic: It's been like that in all mp games I've played, give it enough time invested and practice, you will be able to do well with any chassis or build, not just the meta stuff. Actually, those running meta or clinging to only one type of build to master it, are in my humble opinion less in touch with the game mechanics than those that explore it and try more diverse approach, either for fun, challenge, or just a change of feel, it all comes down to confidence and knowledge of the game that you have. You can make work even a slightly less powerful chassis if you know how to pilot and work with the team, because this game is not just about your build but how you put it to use in convergence with the rest of the 11 players on your side.
This is not just another "clans are not OP" threads, but the OP has put out some very intricate points, even tough raising the "what is skill anyway" question again, which is not really measurable by any stretch of the imagination, it all comes down to the time you invested and how open minded you are to explore the game mechanics and start thinking outside of the box and working on your "6th sense" on the battlefield (also known as situational awareness), which is one of the hardest skills to master, but makes you a much better player in the long run.
Good job reading the other 13 pages. Seems you totally got the point of every single page. </sarcasm>
Looking at the last posts on page 14, the thread seems to have deviated to another clan is overpowered argument.
Fails off course and off topic that OP wanted to make, which was a completely different view on the subject, but somehow on these forums it always comes down to the argument of clans being unbalanced. Even tough it has some good analysis and comparissons, this is not what the thread initially was about. As it seems, every time you want to bring anything else to the conversation it is being completely disregarded and you get all these proofs, tables, charts and comparissons between the both sides.
I have my own thoughts on the balance too and I am slightly deviating to one side, but I will not contribute to this discussion because it's off topic and we already had enough of those.
Looking at the last posts on page 14, the thread seems to have deviated to another clan is overpowered argument.
Fails off course and off topic that OP wanted to make, which was a completely different view on the subject, but somehow on these forums it always comes down to the argument of clans being unbalanced. Even tough it has some good analysis and comparissons, this is not what the thread initially was about. As it seems, every time you want to bring anything else to the conversation it is being completely disregarded and you get all these proofs, tables, charts and comparissons between the both sides.
I have my own thoughts on the balance too and I am slightly deviating to one side, but I will not contribute to this discussion because it's off topic and we already had enough of those.
TL:DR is Clan mechs are not OP as a whole, Timberwolf alone is OP due to many many factors stacking together. Also, Gyrok is trying to make himself seem like a represenative of all top tier comp players to the rest of the community even though he's a Tier3/4 player who over the past week has suffered varying degrees of shame from the actual upper tier players.
Reading from pages 10 on will generally make you re-think the whole of you position.
thik you are going to be able to play even remotely clos who play this game every moment they are not doing anything else...
I'm going to stop you right there. Time spent isn't an indicator of playing skill. This isn't something like weight lifting, where even someone with a poor routine and little natural strength will eventually get gains.
Threads like this are far too common, and the content is getting old. Granted, if people actually paid attention to these adorable and mind-numbingly frequent pep talk threads, there'd be marginally less clueless people around.
This thread was never going to foster any original discussion, just more headbutting, point scoring, and back and forth about balance that we've all read time and time again.
TL:DR is Clan mechs are not OP as a whole, Timberwolf alone is OP due to many many factors stacking together.
Well, that was allready concluded in a few other threads, so nothing new there. I could also agree on that subject, but it's still not the reason somebody is winning games because of this mech. Also, It might be more of a problem of Summoner and other clan mechs underpowered in comparisson of the TW might.
Quote
Gyrok is trying to make himself seem like a represenative of all top tier comp players to the rest of the community even though he's a Tier3/4 player who over the past week has suffered varying degrees of shame from the actual upper tier players.
I wasn't aware that if you say "myself and the average guys on our comp team" now means you're representing yourself as one of the top tier players. He is still dropping with newer players too and also teaching them the ways, which is still more honorable than consistently staying in your top tier elite premade setup and playing just for the sake of winning and nothing else.
Err.. but that's kind of the whole point of that build. It's a sword and board build.
You put everything in one side, and then you don't expose that side to incoming fire... and you use the entire other side of your mech to soak damage.
I mean, sure, if you run that kind of build and then let them kill your sword side, then you're screwed.. but that means you failed to use the mech as it was designed.
This is actually why the Dragonslayer is the best Victor.
This isn't a design flaw dude. It's a strength.
Roland, you are brushing aside a huge factor in the post above. Elo.
Of COURSE higher Elo players can (for the most part) use their shield arm/Torso to advantage.
But that is just not the case at lower and mid level Elo's. In my experience, torsotwisting skill and positioning to take advantage of shield arms is one of the LARGEST determiners of skill in this game. A lot of people either dont do it, (low Elo) or do it sporatically (mid Elo). I admit I sometimes forget it myself.
So the value of the async build really DOES vary quite a bit. If you are in lower Elo's it is a terrible build. If you are in a higher Elo, it is always the best build.
All of that having been said, I think we can all agree that the clan XL does in fact impart an advantage. Anyone who says it doesnt is simple wrong. The real question is how much.
As for the TW benefiting from the side torso in an async build, I would point out that generally speaking the advantage is not as great as it might first appear. This is because the arms are slung so low that it is really easy to JUST hit the torso unlike the DS and 3D which can use their arm to great effect and protect its torso. Yes the arm has less armor, and yes the TW has some advantage, but compared to the advantages provided by the PP FLD weapon setup, it is minor IMO.
Lastly,
IF (and the jury is still out IMO) the XL engines provide such an advantage, there is a SIMPLE fix.
Implement engine crits similar to those in TT. Bump heat and slow down mechs missing 2 engine crit slots. THAT will lower the TTK for clan mechs missing a torso by a LOT.
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 06:39 AM
Philldoe, on 15 July 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:
TL:DR is Clan mechs are not OP as a whole, Timberwolf alone is OP due to many many factors stacking together. Also, Gyrok is trying to make himself seem like a represenative of all top tier comp players to the rest of the community even though he's a Tier3/4 player who over the past week has suffered varying degrees of shame from the actual upper tier players.
Reading from pages 10 on will generally make you re-think the whole of you position.
LOL just what shame is that? We are running lots of training drops in pub 12s and sure our bondsman get rolled sometimes, same as anyone else. We also have inexperienced drop commanders getting experience to improve the clan as a whole.
Now last night HoL rolled our bondsmen in the pub queue 12-1 or something. They wanted to scrim, and I grabbed my comp players who were on last night and we ran 4 drops against them. We got caught out of position once and lost pretty roughly in one match, but other than that I think we put up a good fight and had several close games. They did not rickroll us like they expected. We still lost, but Adiuvo, heim and those guys now know that our comp team is not a joke, nor is it who is typically dropping when you see us in the pub queue. After that, several of our guys went to bed, and we started training in pub queue again. We ran into SJR and got beat. We really had good position there but poor execution (again, training players). So that being said, I am happy with our progress. We are not where I want to be yet, but we are getting there.
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 06:45 AM
Sprouticus, on 15 July 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:
Roland, you are brushing aside a huge factor in the post above. Elo.
Of COURSE higher Elo players can (for the most part) use their shield arm/Torso to advantage.
But that is just not the case at lower and mid level Elo's. In my experience, torsotwisting skill and positioning to take advantage of shield arms is one of the LARGEST determiners of skill in this game. A lot of people either dont do it, (low Elo) or do it sporatically (mid Elo). I admit I sometimes forget it myself.
So the value of the async build really DOES vary quite a bit. If you are in lower Elo's it is a terrible build. If you are in a higher Elo, it is always the best build.
All of that having been said, I think we can all agree that the clan XL does in fact impart an advantage. Anyone who says it doesnt is simple wrong. The real question is how much.
As for the TW benefiting from the side torso in an async build, I would point out that generally speaking the advantage is not as great as it might first appear. This is because the arms are slung so low that it is really easy to JUST hit the torso unlike the DS and 3D which can use their arm to great effect and protect its torso. Yes the arm has less armor, and yes the TW has some advantage, but compared to the advantages provided by the PP FLD weapon setup, it is minor IMO.
Lastly,
IF (and the jury is still out IMO) the XL engines provide such an advantage, there is a SIMPLE fix.
Implement engine crits similar to those in TT. Bump heat and slow down mechs missing 2 engine crit slots. THAT will lower the TTK for clan mechs missing a torso by a LOT.
If you are missing half of your weapons it makes little impact to lose heatsinks. Sword and board builds are great, they might run a tad hotter, but would still not be terribly gimped...sure DPS might drop a point due to heat. Though that does not necessarily play a massive role.
I do agree that the advantage is a good deal less than some give credit for...you can lose 2 ST almost as quickly as one CT. So it affords a minor survival advantage but nothing overly game breaking.
If you are missing half of your weapons it makes little impact to lose heatsinks. Sword and board builds are great, they might run a tad hotter, but would still not be terribly gimped...sure DPS might drop a point due to heat. Though that does not necessarily play a massive role.
I do agree that the advantage is a good deal less than some give credit for...you can lose 2 ST almost as quickly as one CT. So it affords a minor survival advantage but nothing overly game breaking.
One additional factor that makes player skill so important is the PPc spread mechanism for clan ERPPC's. If you hit someone in the arm, you lose 16% of the damage with that PPC.
Again, minor compared to other factors, but another consideraiton in the equation
Looking at the pros and cons on the TW vs DS
PRO's
XL engine provides extra speed and twist
range advanatge
damage advantage (somewhat mitigated by PPC spread)
no min range on PPC's
better heat disipation somewhat offsets the extra heat of the ERPPC
Heavy slot in MM
CON's
low slung arms make shield arm less effective
heat is significantly higher
Honeslty, the DS vs TW is a pretty close thing IMO. I am just trying to compare apples to apples here. The DS is obviously bigger, and it takes an assault slot in 4x3, but overall I think they are relatively close all other things being equal.
At the end of the day, BOTH of those would be preferable in Comp play to other 75 or 80 ton mechs simply for their hardpoints and PP FLD.
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:02 AM
Schopenhauer, on 15 July 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:
This is a lie. We still think your a joke.
Considering that you probably roll many comp 12 mans much worse than the matches we had, that is your prerogative to think so. However, we were not the rickroll you thought. Even you have to admit that...some of you admitted as much in chat last night.
Can we all just stop the 'my team is better than your stuff'. It has NO value. And really, you come off sounding like a dou-che and thus lowering the perceived value of the opinions of your clan mates in these discussions
Gyrok, that goes for you too. I don't care if CW-DG is awesome or not. If you present a reasonable argument I will listen. If you do it a lot I will tend to value your opinion more. Your team makeup does not matter.
side note: Showing consistant reasoned arguments on these boards is a big part of whether I listen to someone. I think that applies to other frequent posters as well. I have known Roland to be reasonable for many many years which is why I am taking his concerns very seriously even though we disagree on this particular discussion. Bish, Mystere, Mischief, and McGral, and several others have also earned my respect in these talks.
The rest of you are greeted with a great deal of skepticism and very little benifit of the doubt.
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:19 AM
Sprout, I agree mostly with that, though we are not yet considering the placement of weapons on the mech. A DS has high mounts for weapons, meaning it does not have to expose nearly as much of itself to fire the same volley.
Now, even if that only means 5% less damage per jump, that makes a big deal in terms of damage avoidance. It gives the DS an edge over the TW in the most hotly disputed role.
I kind of agree with the OP but not fully, a 5 hour a week player shouldn't expect to beat a 35 hour a week player thats true. I think people just get so pissed because the meta is boring after a while and people only keep using it because the top teams keep doing it so all the comp teams have to keep doing it in a viscious cycle. Also theres just not enough people doing 12 mans so semi-comp teams like mine don't even want to play the top teams, its a waste of time and isn't fun, it only breeds anger and it doesnt reall feel like a test of skill when you get arty dropped on you 19 times. Theres also the somewhat correct perception that the meta doesn't actually involve that much skill. Lets face it, it isn't hard to hit anything above a light mech with PPCs and Gauss rifles/AC5s. It just isn't. I can pooptart too and I can't even see well enough to drive a car in RL. It just fundamentally isn't that hard to hit things period in this game. Specific side torsos from 800m on a moving target? Ok yea that takes some skill but it still isn't fun after a while because the mechanics of achieving it just are not that hard
While Alwrath overstepped boundaries, we will police our own. I suggest you put a leash on yours as well. The insults have flown enough in here...I think the peanut gallery has had enough for one day...
As for your opinions...if they are formulated off that cocktail napkin math and generic write up that was shown earlier...you do not even have half the facts.
That is the issue there...you are simply not doing PROPER qualitative AND quantitative analysis to be able to actually form conclusions.
You guys are concocting a theory you cannot prove...like a theoretical physicist.
The difference is...he spends 20 years trying to solve one piece of an equation so big super computers cannot yet run the calculations...(nor can they confirm the formula is valid or invalid).
Meanwhile that document makes a bunch of brash generalizations about things that are unfounded entirely to begin with.
More cocktail napkin math...
How about with ballistic loadouts and PPCs? Considering the meta cares nothing for LRMs and begrudgingly accepts SRMs as a BACKUP weapon.
First:
I don't POLICE my friends, I stand behind them, or with them, this is a fundamental difference between newer competitive teams and ones that are more established, this too shall be on the learning curve for your team. That is not a knock, it is simply a reality.
Second:
I did not propose any math (s) as it is not available to us, the physics of the game (to a degree) are not allowed to us, the angle of armor, the actual mathematical geometry of the hit boxes, the width of a mech, all in relation to the profile are simply not 100% available, thus there is no "cocktail math" that can be done, nor would I personally take it on, if and when those things become available 100% (probably never) you are welcome to work it out. Until such time, practical experimentation will rule the day. If a high level pilot runs a victor in practice and does well, and then runs a Timberwolf under the exact same circumstances and doubles damage and kills, well I would call that a practical application. If you really are an engineer you understand the math is not conclusive until you have every variable and you do not. And even then, the factor of the pilot skill, the latency in game, and the sensitivity of each individual pilots mouse work are all factors to be included, not simply torso twist and speed,
I'm glad this debate is taking place, and it is a actually less of a flame war then it could be.
I do, as a member of the competitive community at large, hope you guys continue to grow as a unit and enter more and more competitions and leagues, it is only good for the game as a whole, and for your team.
You do not speak for me when you say the casuals have no place in the game, I'm pretty sure you speak for no one but yourself actually, And speaking of math, even if every competitive player in the game today had spent $400 + as you say (I'm well past that myself) we would still be only a very small percentage of the total amount paid in, heck at least half of the original "founders" don't even play anymore and they dropped some duckets. PGI has stated at least once that they are more concerned with the masses then with what the competitive community thinks (of course they are listening a bit more now and it is welcomed) but that should tell you where the bread has been buttered from.
And there is nothing wrong with starting some nice little rivalries. I believe you may have started a few here .
GL GH HF
don't forget those little abbreviations, they a actually mean something.
and please don't leash people from coming after someone (at least in a reasonable fashion), this is actually a combat game after all.......
4
MischiefSC, on 15 July 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:
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