118 replies to this topic

[o0Marduk0o]

This thread....it feels so wrong.

[BoomDog]

I think the most telling argument about this is that PGI has demonstrated that they can do Clan vs. IS, but they aren't.

A lot of people posted their numbers during the Clan vs. IS test matches and the vast majority were the IS getting stomped. There were even Clan players saying it was too easy.

Personally, I'm fine with them being OP if they balance matches out with more numbers for the IS side. 12 vs 10 maybe?

[Tombstoner]

Torgun, on 01 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think the mods will mop up cash for the TW sales for now. Then when it releases for CBills, nerf it shortly afterwards. And then the next mech pack will somehow have another mech that slips through the balancing cracks and end up extremely good and will only be sold for real cash for a couple months. Then when it releases for CBills nerf it shortly afterwards. Rinse and repeat until there are too few whales falling for it.

The TW doesn't need a nerf in any way. It just happens to sit in a spot within the mech design rules that has the optimum weight converted into larger engin power to weight gain from using an xl engine. The dire wolf uses that tonnage savings for firepower. The TW is a blend of improved speed, weapons, ammo and heat sinks. There is nothing to nerf.

If it ever had an advantage is in a very favorable load out from TT. Many future designs are going to be just as powerful if not more so jsut from weapons layout. imagine an atlas with 8 ballistics hard points. 2 in each arm with two in each RT/LT torso. it would be a perfect ac-2 boat.... that is prenerf ac-2.

[Chagatay]

Well they will have to do something....not sure what that something is*. If they for instance released it tomorrow for c-bills, the number of fielded Timbertarts will probably outnumber everything else combined in a match.

*increase other mechs' sex appeal somehow. Make dragons puff colored smoke when they get kills, add kill animations, add melee combat**. I know, I know it is all a pipe dream but a brother can dream can't he?

**melee combat/weapons are IS only, sorry clanners. You can still DFA though and use your shiny cool lasers, blue missiles and warhorns.

[oldradagast]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Valid argument honestly and one I have made myself. However, a personal comparison takes the skill factor out of the equation. My skill and experience at playing the game remains the same, only the mechs change.

The problem is that those numbers only cover YOUR skill at the game. It proves absolutely nothing about the overall metagame except that Clan mechs are not literal "I win" buttons... which nobody was really claiming anyway. If we're going to judge the game based solely upon the results of individuals, the Awesome is a great mech and Cataphracts are mediocre (according to my stats), and the Battlemaster is a top-tier assault mech (according to your stats.) And yet if you look at what the top tier players bring to matches, I'm reasonably certain that there are a lot more Timberwolves and Cataphracts than Awesomes and Battlemasters.. You see what I mean; you need a lot of data, particularly data from good players, to get any real feel for what's going on with regard to mech power levels.

If somebody had the time, track the match end results across many matches and see how well the Clan mechs compare to the IS mechs. I bet there will be a modest, but noticeable, edge.

[Torgun]

Tombstoner, on 01 August 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

The TW doesn't need a nerf in any way. It just happens to sit in a spot within the mech design rules that has the optimum weight converted into larger engin power to weight gain from using an xl engine. The dire wolf uses that tonnage savings for firepower. The TW is a blend of improved speed, weapons, ammo and heat sinks. There is nothing to nerf.

If it ever had an advantage is in a very favorable load out from TT. Many future designs are going to be just as powerful if not more so jsut from weapons layout. imagine an atlas with 8 ballistics hard points. 2 in each arm with two in each RT/LT torso. it would be a perfect ac-2 boat.... that is prenerf ac-2.

I have to disagree. The TW clearly has too many good things going for it and hardly any drawbacks compared to all the other mechs. It's got plenty of weight for weapons since clan weapons are lighter. It's got plenty of speed to go with that, and also good cooling with plenty of heatsinks. It has the same survivability as all other clan mechs with XL due to being able to lose one side torso and still live. It also has JJ if you want to use them. What are the drawbacks? A fairly large CT? There are plenty of IS mechs that have clearly bigger CT, but none of them get all the good clan stuff. The TW clearly has too many strengths and too few weaknesses and if it doesn't get nerfed it would be used by more and more players. No it's not because it's so "fun", it's because it's fun to win more often with a better mech.

[Mcgral18]

Torgun, on 01 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I have to disagree. The TW clearly has too many good things going for it and hardly any drawbacks compared to all the other mechs. It's got plenty of weight for weapons since clan weapons are lighter. It's got plenty of speed to go with that, and also good cooling with plenty of heatsinks. It has the same survivability as all other clan mechs with XL due to being able to lose one side torso and still live. It also has JJ if you want to use them. What are the drawbacks? A fairly large CT? There are plenty of IS mechs that have clearly bigger CT, but none of them get all the good clan stuff. The TW clearly has too many strengths and too few weaknesses and if it doesn't get nerfed it would be used by more and more players. No it's not because it's so "fun", it's because it's fun to win more often with a better mech.

It's actually got Stalker like hitboxes, so very good ones.

How do you propose to "fix" it?

[Bulletsponge0]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

My Catapult A1 and HGN-733 has way more KDR than my Dragon Slayer--yet everyone know DS is better mech than A1. Your story does not mean much, especially in pugs or you have been clubbing seals with 12 mans. What only matters is whether people are preferring T-Wolves or BLR-1G in high level play. Cause they know which is overpowered and use it constantly.

I don't understand the whole "what do high level players say about it" argument.
Can't those guys make any mech look OP? and conversely, can't they make any mech they face off against look UP?

[Torgun]

Mcgral18, on 01 August 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

It's actually got Stalker like hitboxes, so very good ones.

How do you propose to "fix" it?

What I think should be done matters little, what PGI will do since it's the easiest thing is probably to give it the Victor treatment. Make it turn and twist a lot slower than its' weight. And of course after it's available for CBills will they suddenly realise this mech is too good, as not to anger the paying customers who bought it. So it will be the people who bought the mech packs that will actually get to use the powerful TW for more than a few weeks. Yeah not P2W at all, not even close.

[Moomtazz]

Well I upgraded from Dire Wolf to Warhawk package today. Hope I get my money's worth!

[oldradagast]

Bulletsponge0, on 01 August 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

I don't understand the whole "what do high level players say about it" argument.
Can't those guys make any mech look OP? and conversely, can't they make any mech they face off against look UP?

A high-skill player can play ANY mech better than a lower-skill player. That doesn't mean a Locust with a Standard 100 engine and 1 small laser is effective just because a high level player can actually do some damage with it.

In EVERY other collectible, competitive game with a mix of pieces / cards / units / whatever of different power levels, the game designers always look to the top tier players to determine what is good and what isn't. MWO should be no different in that regard, and I strongly suspect the top tier has nothing but jump-sniping, ECM, strikes, and plenty of Clan mechs.

[Sorbic]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Just wanted to give a Timber Wolf P2W update

Timber Wolf - Prime

1.89 K/D
1.125 kills per match
428 average damage per match

Battlemaster BLG-1G (stats only since clan release)

How do people get their stats for a particular time period?

[Sorbic]

Oh and playing devils advocate. Are the TW stats only recent ones that reflect a mech you've had as much experience in as the BM and is fully unlocked? Are you running lrms on either?

Only semi related, just started leveling my first BM's. So far I'm enjoying the 1D.

[Adiuvo]

Sorbic, on 01 August 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

How do people get their stats for a particular time period?

You can't, unless you track all of your stats manually. Or you guess...

[Bulletsponge0]

oldradagast, on 01 August 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

A high-skill player can play ANY mech better than a lower-skill player. That doesn't mean a Locust with a Standard 100 engine and 1 small laser is effective just because a high level player can actually do some damage with it.

In EVERY other collectible, competitive game with a mix of pieces / cards / units / whatever of different power levels, the game designers always look to the top tier players to determine what is good and what isn't. MWO should be no different in that regard, and I strongly suspect the top tier has nothing but jump-sniping, ECM, strikes, and plenty of Clan mechs.

so by only using their input, the variety in the game flies out the window and it turns into nothing more than a meta-fest...

[Undercover Brother]

Just to point out something:

My K/D in my Shadowhawks is twice that of my Summoners (Thors)
My K/D in my Summoners (Thors) are approx. 1.25x better than my Timberwolves (Madcats)
My K/D in my Dire Wolves (Daishis) is...SAD.

Now, at the same time, my DWs run approx. 300 DMG per match.
My TWs run 450-600 DMG per match.
My Summoners average 600-650 DMG per match.
My Shadowhawks only average 250-350 per match.


Simple reasons for these stats are as follows:

My Shadowhawks are all brawlers. Their direct-fire weapons and speed allow for lots of kills (with little damage) because of SPEED.

My DWs punch out massive amounts of damage in just a few seconds, but once I'm left behind by my teammates, or find myself out in the open, I get picked apart in seconds by LRMs or by 2 or 3 light mechs.

My TWs are slightly more maneuverable, and slightly heavier armed Catapults. My LRMs knock off armor from range, and my lasers and MGs finish the job. BUT, my slower speed (when I can be run down by 2 or 3 I.S. assaults, this ***** is SLOW) and the fact that losing arm lasers are easier than taking out the torsos on a Catapult, I can find myself overwhelmed pretty quick.

As for my Summoners, they are slow, and the hardpoints suck. BUT, jump jets have saved me from taking on more than I can handle, more times than I'd care to count, the Summoner tanks damage (and when twisting the torso towards the enemy, your profile shrinks by almost half) well, and with the hardpoints you DO have, you can strike at a distance (LRMs/ERPPC/ERLLAS), pound at medium range (SRMs/SSRMs/ERMLAS/MPLAS/AC-10), and just DEVISTATE at short range (AC/20,LPLAS,SRM/SSRM), without ever worrying about heat.

Out of every mech in the game (and I've had EVERY chassis at one point), I've never mastered a chassis faster than the Summoner (less than 12 hours).

As for my "oh-so-overpowered Timberwolf (and Dire Whale), I've been banging my head against the wall for 4 weeks, trying to master them...

[Roland]

So this thread is about how the op is bad at driving mad cats?

[oldradagast]

Bulletsponge0, on 01 August 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

so by only using their input, the variety in the game flies out the window and it turns into nothing more than a meta-fest...

Ah, you hit upon a delicate part of all this - the challenge of keeping the game diverse, fun, AND balanced.

It's not easy, and, yes - you do run the risk of turning everything into a meta-fest. The key, IMHO, is to gather the data from the higher level players on balance, but look across the board for fun (since while higher level players are the best at exploiting balance problems, everyone should be having fun.) Also, don't just listen to high level players regarding the game since some of them might be quite happen to keep their dominate position via continuing the current meta.

[Angel of Annihilation]

oldradagast, on 01 August 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

The problem is that those numbers only cover YOUR skill at the game. It proves absolutely nothing about the overall metagame except that Clan mechs are not literal "I win" buttons... which nobody was really claiming anyway. If we're going to judge the game based solely upon the results of individuals, the Awesome is a great mech and Cataphracts are mediocre (according to my stats), and the Battlemaster is a top-tier assault mech (according to your stats.) And yet if you look at what the top tier players bring to matches, I'm reasonably certain that there are a lot more Timberwolves and Cataphracts than Awesomes and Battlemasters.. You see what I mean; you need a lot of data, particularly data from good players, to get any real feel for what's going on with regard to mech power levels.

If somebody had the time, track the match end results across many matches and see how well the Clan mechs compare to the IS mechs. I bet there will be a modest, but noticeable, edge.

Actually you inadvertently bring up a very important fact. How well a mech performs is all about that persons personal perception of the mech. I have many times now, preformed personal tests on mechs that people have claimed to be underpowered or overpowered and rarely have the claims held up to actually testing. However you have a factor going on called "Mass Psychology".

Basically people hear something over and over so it must be true and even if it isn't they still believe it is true and that belief becomes fact. Most people do not actually attempt objective tests that either prove or disprove what is actually true, they just accepted because, "if everyone is doing it, it must be true". I see this time and time again in these sort of games.

A prime example of this is the number of, "Clans are OPed" posts we see that are created by people that don't current own or operate Clan mechs. How can you accurately judge something without actually testing it? Yet more and more people jump on that idea every day and everyone who claims different or even shows proof is shouted down as being in error or crazy.

Anyway the point is, maybe that Awesome is actually better than the masses believe which is why, inexplicably, it performs as a great mech for you. However, because of its reputation, many won't even try it and/or experiment with it and if asked by a friend if that friend should play an Awesome, they would respond, "Gods no, they suck!!" even though they have never even played it.

The Awesome was one of the mechs I tested back when it was claimed to be Under Powered. My results were mixed. If I used a mixed LRM/PPC build and made sure to always to keep at mid to long range, the Awesome was an fairly good mech. However if I attempted to brawl at all, even with a brawling build, it failed miserably. The point here is that if 90% of the players that used an Awesome attempted to use it primarily as a brawler, then it isn't surprising that it is considered a failed design and that by sheer amounts of negative post, got the reputation it does. However, this doesn't change the fact that used in that mid to long range build, it preformed very well. If the shoe had been on the other foot and 90% of the people used it in this fashion, it would quite likely have a much different reputation.

This is what I am talking about with the power of mass psychology and the fact that a mech is popular doesn't always mean that it is actually better.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 01 August 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I'd be more impressed if you actually showed your anecdotal experiences in an apples to apples sorta way, aka TW vs Orion or CTF perhaps.

Now, I am not one of the people out there crying that TW's are OP. They are (imo), the Clan's most effective platform, but that doesn't make them OP. It certainly helps them standout from the small group of Clan mechs available tho.

That being said, your comparison is not particularly impressive imo, simply because it's two very different mechs and differing classes. Interesting thread though.