876 replies to this topic

[jarien13]

IronLichRich, on 05 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Just a note of perspective. I am a player who absolutely loves Clan mechs and technology, but still likes some Inner Sphere tech as well. Unfortunately, that tech (templar, fafinr, devastator) is a bit far off. I am also in favor of buffs before nerfs

Hopefully constructive criticism/feedback here. Having played the late August PTS with these changes, I don't feel the changes to the ER Lasers for Clan is atrocious. On my 7ERML+Gauss Timber Wolf, my engagement distance was not unbearably short, but the IS mechs were not taking a 7 laser+gauss alpha from outside many of their engagement ranges anymore. The increased heat took a bit of getting used to, but was also acceptable. For my Dire Wolf, I run a setup similar to the prime (remove the lrm and uacs for a torso mounted gauss rifle and heat sinks/ammo), and I felt that the changes were acceptable. While I'm not too sure about the changes to the pulse lasers as I didn't use them too much on the PTS, I am more than happy to trade 150m of range in exchange for reduced ghost heat. Remember people, the ghost heat for CERLL got REDUCED and you can still shoot at freebirth scum from outside anything but LRM or ERPPC effective range.

As to my thoughts on what the largest issue the clans have is? They take no penalty for side torso loss. I feel that a heat penalty would be best, not necessarily 10 heat like in the tabletop (not sure how the numbers work exactly for heat in MWO, just manage my heat scale), but I feel that a movement penalty will just result in the mech without a torso just getting annihilated as opposed to having reduced effectiveness. There should be a price for having the ability to mount incredible firepower, but it should NOT be "hey, here's all these cool guns...now don't shoot them because they're nerfed into oblivion."

For helping the Inner Sphere pilots, I think the following would help:
-Introducing the Light Fusion Engine and ERML as soon as possible. I'm all for timeline acceleration if it means that I can keep a game I enjoy alive without the use of the nerf bat.
-Giving the IS an assault mech that can mount 2 gauss rifles ASAP. When I'm in a IS mech, this is one of the things that makes me sad as an assault pilot.

Wish I had noticed this post so I could quote it in my original post in this thread: "There should be a price for having the ability to mount incredible firepower, but it should NOT be "hey, here's all these cool guns...now don't shoot them (more than 1 at a time within 1 second, regardless of actual weapon cycle or use of chain firing) because they're nerfed into oblivion (going to send you into permanent overheat shutdown until your mech self-destructs, if the enemy doesn't finish you first)." Looking at you Nova Prime and Adder-Prime...


Well, I had this nice, long, rambling rant I was gonna post here about how these balance issues should have been worked out months before the design phase of the MW:O Clan mechs, and how PGI seem unable to anticipate the effects of their nerfs on all mechs rather than just a few "meta" build hard-point layout mechs causing the nerf, and the rip-off that the clan mechs are becoming for what is merging to IS performance metrics, and the inability to resolve the alpha build pin-point damage issue, and the "WAHH! NERF IT ALL cause I can't figure out how to counter it" forum voices, and the 12v10/ELO/MM tonnage/equipment/skill bracket/balance issues that will never go away or be satisfactorily fixed... but, meh, what's the point?

~end transmission~

[El Bandito]

Shogun459, on 06 September 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

You want balance play checkers.  Implimenting your ideas when I paid money for a product and your ideas make that product unplayable is the same as theft.

I paid money to help start this project. And I say balance is needed.

[TexAce]

Kmieciu, on 05 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I must say that I fully agree with Russ on this topic. 10vs12 was a doomed idea from the start. Who would want to be on the IS side anyway?

ME! I would have loved to play the weaker role, I dont plan to ever buy clan mechs, too. Yeah, bite your jaw out on that sentence PGI/IGP.

For me this decision sucks and perhaps its true to what MWO wants to be, but its not true to what MW or Battletech is.

Bad decision.

And all those contra points are pretty weak. Very weak and only sound like excuses.

Clan mechs ARE better than IS mechs and they should be.
There is nothing wrong with having to field more mechs to win against a stronger opponent.

Edited by TexAss, 07 September 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Grey Death Storm]

Ill post this here as this is original feed Back thread

Remove clan weapon Nerfs and try to fix 10 vs 12 so it works.

Also another idea from ThatDwag - good work
-------------------------------------------------------ThatDwagPost--------------------------------------------------------------
Keep the clan tech the way it is, was....

simple add research modules to the IS mechs, all of them, allowing them (after unlocking modules) to add clan tech.

Hey, instead of the community grabbing pitchforks, Paul, Russ, they would be spending money to unlock modules....

The "lore" covered this I thought, first the clan kicked ass...then the IS caught up and all was equal again.......equal cause they had gained better tech, NOT flat lined the weapons..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how anyone else feels about that idea but I thought id post it please feel free comment, giving inner sphere pilots ability research Clan tech and use weapons will bridge gap between inner sphere and Clans

[Malleus011]

PGI negotiates the rights to the Battletech/Mechwarrior IP;

Proceeds to make game that barely resembles the IP.

Well played, sir. Well played.

[GrizzlyViking]

Sounds great to me! I think you have avoided creating a great divide in the community by keeping things balanced with 12 v 12 and continuing to keep Mech balance as well. Keep up the good work!

[RustyBolts]

So we are going to take clan mechs that rely heavily on energy weapons and add more heat then make their engines, which we have zero options with, and add more heat when damaged or make them move slower when they are already slow.

We end up with a mech that cant shoot due to heat and cant move due to a movement penalty. WOW!

[Sancho Kabrinski]

RustyBolts, on 07 September 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

So we are going to take clan mechs that rely heavily on energy weapons and add more heat then make their engines, which we have zero options with, and add more heat when damaged or make them move slower when they are already slow.

We end up with a mech that cant shoot due to heat and cant move due to a movement penalty. WOW!

So right! The amazing logic of PGI uh?
What they think is going to happen when they make the clan mechs garbage? They think ppl will still use them? Force us to use IS mechs? Back to the IS meta pinpoint? Back to the QQ's about nerfing this or that ballistic or srms or lrms?
Want balance PGI? Put the same nummers for IS and Clan weapons, same systems, all equal, just change colors, there you have, balance. Anyway, game is screwed. They want a robot game for "e-sport" having a famous franchise name as bait, not "A Battletech game". Again. Remove " A Battletech game" from the logo.

Edited by Sancho Kabrinski, 07 September 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Shogun459]

MoonUnitBeta, on 07 September 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

Why bother asking if you won't believe me? I think it's because you actually would believe me.
And even if you don't, why does it matter how many clans mechs I have? Is a number supposed to mean something?

So for the record....
Clan mechs: 24
IS mechs: 60

surprised you did answer. I stand corrected.
Have you run cmpls lately? Had to pull them off my Kit and TW. (the only mechs I could afford) Too hot, got the same heat firing 3 cmpls on chain as I did Alphaing them, the 5% diff is the 5 seconds it takes to chainfire them.
So, can't run Clan ERLs, LPs, MPLs, or plasmas. PGI themselves said, 'We could do something bad or something worse and we choose worse' NOT a good business model.

So if that's what you call balance, I'm taking my money elsewhere.
I've seen this before in 'Warhammer' the Devs picked a side and nerfed them till there was a mass exodus out.
enjoy the IS war. I've been this since closed beta. thought I'd never quit, I was wrong.

[Shogun459]

ThatDawg, on 07 September 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

le' ouch


well, this thread will be locked soon with a note "we are aware of the situation (never a problem) and are working on solutions to fix it"

I think the 'Problem" PGI is working on is they want players like me, who've been here spending money from closed beta, to quit.
Mission accomplished.

[Sancho Kabrinski]

Will be fun to see a CW with a clan invasion without clan mechs.

[BSK]

Have you guys tried turning off ghost heat for IS mechs while leaving it on for Clan mechs?

[Shogun459]

Shredhead, on 06 September 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

So. *******. What?
Clan weapons have still more damage, range and less weight.
Boohoo they made my precious machines more like the others, and now I have to take less weapons and have to think about my loadouts.
My Nova still works fine with 1 ERLL and 5 ERML. L2mechlab!

" Clan weapons have still more damage, range and less weight "

All that doesn't count for squat if you shut down every other time you fire, oh and the change to clan heat sinks means it takes way longer to cool down before you can chainfire again.

Fired 3 CMPLs on my kitfox, chain was 5% less than alpha, due to the time it takes to fire them.

Chaining cMPLs creates the same heat as an alpha minus the cooling during firing, ie 5%

[stjobe]

Sancho Kabrinski, on 07 September 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Will be fun to see a CW with a clan invasion without clan mechs.

OMG here comes some unknown enemy from beyond the Inner Sphere! Take cover!
Oh, wait, it's just these Clan lads we've been mixing it up with for the last year. 'Ello lads, what's happening?

Very lore. Much BattleTech. Wow.

[Meta 2013]

Hey all,

The simplest tool to help balance already exists. Yet its unused. We of course all know why ... PGI couldn't balance a simple check book, yet alone a complex set of weapons variables. They failed to balance IS weapons with out resorting to absurd tactics like ghost heat. Those who actually thought Clan stuff was going to get balanced ... what are you smoking? PGI has a consistent track record of not being able to balance. Though eventually they dream up enough weird crap to get close.

That said, the simplest and most sensible way to balance the clan stuff... longer recycle times. You don't screw with builds,you lower the dps, but retain the "flavor" of the tech. No need to screw with duration, heat, range, or what ever other gimmick PGI can dream up. Yes, in the overall course of balancing, some weapons may need a heat tweak, or a damage tweak. But that would be to balance with-in the clans weapons, not to nerf so NOOB IS pilots can live.

Caveat* I have very limited battle tech lore knowledge, only played the pc games 1 through 4 and the expansions.

To my understanding, Clan pilots are supposed to be much better pilots overall than IS pilots, given that, the longer recycle times would lend to clan pilots needing to make each shot count, and supports clan pilots having better skills. IS mechs would still be a match for them given the ability to shoot 1.5 times to 1 ...or what ever ratio pgi comes up with.

Second, the only really high powered clan mechs reside mostly, not all, on the heavy side, any good IS light mech pilots can wipe clan lights.

IS mechs can mount AMS much easier than a lot of clan, AMS is more effective against clan missiles since they are streamed in. vs a big glob. I have watched 4 mechs with AMS chew 2 clan LRM 15 missile streams completely up. Since most people won't give up the minimal weight for AMS, Nor do they get that it is a net of several mechs to be effective, lrm cry babies will always exist. -talking strictly public matches, not competitive builds, where it makes sense they don't carry AMS. Every trial mech should have AMS.

Skill sets have quite a bit to do with how clan vs. IS tech has been perceived. A guy I've dropped a lot with, doesn't own a clan mech, put this guy in any mech, he does well, seen him do 1200 damage and get 5 kills in a locust... 600-900 damage and 3 or 4 kills in any mech he runs is the norm for him. He doesn't even blink at clan mechs...just kills them. He doesn't see them as over powered, he see's them for having the exact same armor amounts as IS mechs, and just as killable. Yes he also is smart enough not to stand in front of a dashi and try to trade shots. Yes he can use cover and not run out to get hammered by missiles. Yes he actually... AIMS. No, he does not try to use a joystick or game pad. Yes he looks at the mini map. No he does not shoot through teammates to get kills. His favorite mechs to use ... k2, Jester.


Longer recycle times:

The price for firepower; less chances to shoot it, need better piloting skills, must make each shot count. Now its balanced.

PGI's default hard-on for using heat to solve everything is really nerfing the flavor of the whole game.

Edited by Meta 2013, 07 September 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Shogun459]

money can't buy skill,
but whining to the Devs to nerf your opponents seems to work.
bye

[Shogun459]

Aresye, on 05 September 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

[/list]So in other words, it would be "too much work." How in the freaking heck are those (relatively minor btw) problems unable to be addressed? Like, it absolutely baffles me, how you've had 2+ years to work on this game, are making MILLIONS of dollars from purchases, yet you can't do the normal tasks that a freelance team could code in a few weeks.

I am just absolutely livid at this point. If all these things like: recoding the matchmaker, making a map, tweaking the UI, etc. are such complicated tasks, then do the entire IP a favor and just back away. There is absolutely no reason that a GAME STUDIO that's being PAID can seriously be this incompetent at their own freaking JOB!

You change numbers in a spreadsheet. Anything above and beyond that takes months (or years) to accomplish. I recall it was even ADMITTED in the past that issues would always try to be resolved within the framework of what's already been designed. That's cute. Except when those issues CAN'T be resolved by the framework, in which case, it's called doing the job of being a GAME COMPANY to design the way to fix those issues.

I'm freaking done here. I am absolutely not paying 1 cent more for any item in this game, no matter how much I want it. Hopefully some day a competent game company that can actually write code and do their own freaking jobs will take this IP out from under you. I only hope there's something left once you're done with it.

HAHAHA
I just realized PGI is the CANADIAN company OBAMA HIRED TO DO AMERICAN HEALTHCARE WEBSITE THAT FLOPPED!

[Vanguard319]

In regards to balance: engine damage should affect ALL mechs with mobility and heat penalties, regardless of whether they are IS or clan. I can't agree with the improvement to IS heat sink efficiency, Clan weaponry tends to run hotter to begin with, though I agree adding relevant quirks is one of the few good ideas you've had. As for increasing armor, how about looking into breaking up PPFLD like people have been suggesting for the last several months? The last thing this game needs is a Spider with armor to rival an Atlas.

Edited by Vanguard319, 07 September 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Quaamik]

As to the current tweaks / nerfs:

Assuming hey are the same as was in the test server over labor day weekend, the energy nerfs need re-thinking regards to certain specific clan (and IS) mechs. A stock build, ANY stock build, should not be hampered to the extent hat its marginal or unusable.

The Nova with current energy nerfs is broken. I tried it over the weekend (BTW, cudos for giving c-bills on the test server and opening clans for purchase). The stock prime build is not playable without serious overheating. I had to delete 4 lasers and add heat sinks to make it useable. Perhaps a variant specific buff (better heat management, lack of ghost heat) would work. If so, that could go into all mechs where the stock builds are broken due to weapon nerfs.

As to proposed ideas you listed:

• - Clan Heat and Movement penalties if a Right or Left torso is destroyed.
  
• No way that will work right. Already clan mechs have most of the weapons in the arms, lose that arm if the side torso is lost (therefor half their weapons). In addition, some of the mechs that are complained about (the Timber for example) has huge side torsos that are the first thing destroyed.
  
• 
  
• - Small increase in IS Mech heat efficiency.
  
• That might work.
  
• 
  
• - Complete IS mech Quirk pass to give more uniqueness and ability when used within their respective roles.
  
• That WOULD work. I don't know if it would be all that was needed, but it would help the flavor of the game.
  
• 
  
• - Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much.
  
• That WOULD work. It would have the benefit of "nerfing" ballistics and missiles, as chassis running them would either need more ammo, or run the risk of finding themselves out of ammo (and weapons) and still facing live opponents.
  
• 
  
• The last two should be implemented soon.
  
• 
  
• As an additional idea, what about including a bonus for TAG / Narc in the scores? Something like a percentage the missile damage done by allied mechs being credited to a mech that TAGs or Narcs a target for them. Something like if the missiles are 10% more effective, crediting the mech supplying TAG or Narc with 5% of the damage done in their score.

[Malleus011]

To seriously address the decent ideas in the patch:

Engine Crits for everyone would be fair; so yes, Clans lose heatsinks when losing an ST, but *all* mechs can take engine criticals.

The best way to increase TTK at this point is to lower the rate of fire, not increase armor and structure. There's nothing wrong with slow RoF weapons, it gives far more time for maneuver.

Not implementing 10v12 - like all solutions that run contrary to the IP you licensed - are generally bad ideas. People don't play this title because they love PGI's vision of big fighting robots. They play it because they want more Battletech.