963 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Kodyn, on 20 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Krafty, i was the one guy i knew in my nerdy crowd that smoked, had tats, piercings, a real job, car, etc lol. Won't catch me near a PBR, nor far from weed. So yeah, it may have been the specific crowd, but I see the same kinds of attitudes on these forums all the time.

I do fully understand that this game is base of a long-standing TT game and it's lore, don't assume I'm completely clueless. I also know that if it wants to survive, be a healthy and fun game and have a bit of a lifespan, it cannot focus and pigeonhole itself that much. There simply isn't enough money in it...which is why the game does have its FPS/Twitch side. Now I'm no CoD guy, but I really enjoy the combination of FPS and actual tactics and strategy, having a mech built for your specific needs, etc. I think those are the cornerstones of this game that keep people coming back, besides just the lore guys who will play anything BT.

All I'm saying is that I feel this will be a healthier game if regardless of what they billed it as, and what it was meant to be, they stick to the parts of the game that will draw new players and keep current ones around, rather than trying to get even more technically close to an already none-too popular genre.(which has clearly hurt this game in the past)

I'm new to the genre myself, and the lore, but find it highly interesting, I just don't want to see it gimp gameplay, because they're trying to follow it so closely it just becomes a graphically prettier Megamek. I'd probably be even more interested in the lore if so many of the lore-hounds on here weren't some of the least interesting people to see type. but I guess I shouldn't judge a whole genre based on it's most annoying fans.(Not lumping you into this Bishop, referring to some other old-heads)

It was the crowd. Theres more of us than there are of them. Theres alot of that attitude here, but its also the same few people (none of which are in this thread actually) over and over again. Most of us forumwarriors are getting drunk and stoned on teamspeak and rolling noobs or getting rolled by huge groups.

We just dont generally go to comic shops to play. Or cons. Cant smoke, everyone is a ****, theyre turning off the stereo. The garage is where its at. If you didnt happen to be in one of the huge cities in the late 80s early 90s when this stuff was super popular...you missed out.

But trust me, ive been with this franchise a looooong time. Alot of the issues that come up game, after game, after game, after game, are pretty much all due to bad translations of the lore, to a PC game, not the other way around. The games succeed despite the fact that theyre horrible knock offs.

Think about it this way. Most MW games, while fun, have been like the 80s Spiderman and Punisher movies. Or say the Street Fighter movie. Bad. Enjoyable to a cult fanbase...but bad.

The more you go back to the source material and stay true to that, the better youre going to be. Like any of the Xmen, new Spiderman, or Batman movies. The proof is in the pudding. Generally the source material for an IP that "makes it" is golden. The more you start shifting away from that to appease "the masses" the sooner you end up with a flop that pleases absolutely no one.

Because what the nerds generally see in something, is value, unrefined. When you take it, and try and shove value into it, it fails. Hollywood discovered that. So you have to go back, find the value, and polish the **** out of it. That usually takes someone who really, really loves the source material and does it justice.

Its like 90s pop punk and how horrible that is. Whenever you try and placate the masses by diluting the source material to appeal to a wider audience, youre doing the wrong thing. It sucks.

Edited by KraftySOT, 20 October 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[happy mech]

PGI, you do not need to focus on specific weapon systems when you have variables like range, cooldown, heat generation, speed, duration, such

ballistic, energy and missile are too general, ac2, ac5, lpl are too specific
please try if you can to check how the system would work if you grouped the weapons into similar style of usage:
medium autocannons (ac2, ac5, uac5, mg?)
heavy autocannons (ac10, lbx10, ac20, gauss?)
light lasers (sl, spl, ml, mpl, tag)
heavy lasers (ll, lpl, erll, tag?)
blind missile (srm2, srm4, srm6, narc, artemis variants)
guided missile (ssrm2, lrm5, lrm10, lrm15, lrm20, artemis variants)
particle cannons (ppc, erppc)

for example, kintaro18
guided missile cooldown, lock speed, travel speed

kintaro20
blind missile range, cooldown
light lasers range

both kintaros can choose from wide range of weapons (well still more than just one) and still benefit from the quirks, and also being completely different

please take a look at this, does it make sense? comment, offer something constructive, do not just whine, thanks

[ShinobiHunter]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

by your reasoning any buff was a bad thing for the game, including all the ones previous, as it made something comparatively stronger to something else.

And I am sure the TW pilots all over the game are staying up at nights worried about their new Commando overlords.ç

Good god. It's being done BECAUSE there is a power gap that needs closing.

Perhaps I'm wrong (feel free to correct me) but Sjorpha agrees that the quirks need to happen.

The best example I can think of would be minimum wage. Let's assume Joe got out of High School, went to college for 4 years, and is making $10 per hour. Bill didn't go to college and so he's only making $8 per hour. If minimum wage gets increased to $9 per hour, Bill will get a raise and Joe won't. Inflation and whatnot will take their toll and cost of living will go up. Bill will still get the same wage relative to cost of living, while Joe actually loses $1 per hour against cost. If that makes any sense, I'm tired so that could be totally wrong lol.

(also, not just directed at you Bishop, this is just trying to explain this for everyone. Hopefully in an understandable way. )

[Kodyn]

Alright Krafty, everything you just said, I can't really argue with, I really do get your points.(Old-school Star Wars guy here, so you can imagine how I feel about Disney, etc...comparable situation, so I see what you're getting at)

I'm still all for the quirks either way though lol.

EDIT: And for the record Krafty, I was in fact referring to situations exactly as you described, Comic Shop guys, basically...I was surrounded by them from high-school through my early twenties...some were good friends, but most...*shudder* I grew up in mostly small towns near semi-large cities, so I never got to experience the good side of it you did.

Edited by Kodyn, 20 October 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[Sjorpha]

ShinobiHunter, on 20 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I fully understand your point here, but at this moment most here seem to be in agreement about the quirks being necessary, so perhaps we could drop this argument and move on with the main topic.

Sounds good, but I think these things are worth discussing both because the customization issue is real whether you think it is a problem or not, and because the idea that you should only ever buff things is a bad design philosophy and it isn't good if the community thinks like that because it forces PGI into a power creep design approach.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

The average power level is already very top heavy in MWO, hence the 12-1 curbstompings being the norm. This will bring the bottom up slightly. But if your build was uber bad in the first place, then yes, it wills till probably be uber bad. But simply by numbers, more players will have to leave upper tier mechs to use these heavily quirked ones, and even with the ir quirks, they are chock full of the weaknesses that made them low tier to begin with.

Just like if you built a weak, or 1 trick pony deck in MtG, you were going to suck, regardless the Meta.

Curbstompings have nothing to do with the mechs unless you are talking about top tier mechs vs bottom tier.
As for bringing the bottom up, not really, all you are doing is bringing some of the middle-high performance loadouts from various mech up to be able to compete with the meta. With weapon specific (ie conditional) quirks you aren't making a mech more inherently valuable (in other words trying to counter balance bad hitboxes, etc) so the bottom is still fairly unmoved (luckily most are getting some armor/internal boosts).

Think about it another way, mechs are defined by their top performing loadouts (just look at the top tier). A weapon specific quirk is meant to give a mech a better performing optimal loadout (that is geared towards what the Devs envision) at the sacrifice that it doesn't boost non-optimal loadouts completely. This makes those other loadouts even more of a liability to a team because not only are they taking a non-optimal build (which may or may not have been optimal before) but also because no mech got a direct nerf meaning the power curve increased over all so long as a team isn't composed of only tier 1 mechs.

[KraftySOT]

But that isnt to say that there arent the "purist" nerds either...everything you can like, has purist nerds. Indy rockers for instance. Everything they listen to has to be independent, even if its horrible. Be it painting, music, video games, comics, whatever.

Some people despite all reason, just wont listen to the fact that sometimes, the source material has a problem. Be it something like an old movie needing to be re-edited, or reshot with a camera that wasnt from a dollar store in the 50s. Or a great live album thats just trash and needs remastering. It happens.

You cant be so attached to it that you cant see the forest for the trees...

But thats probably those neckbeard people youre talking about. I guess ive fortunately not run into many of them.

[DarkonFullPower]

Oogalook, on 17 October 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

*snip*

Quoting you for better change to cut through the noise and actually reading this. Also happily ignoring all post before and after this. (Gotten good at that)

I'm 90% sure that they are doing it the way they are right now as a safe trial run. Once this quirk pass happens and kills Per Variant Variety (The only good thing about IS mechs) as we suspect, then I bet they will change the quirks to more general versions.

You must understand that general quirks are VASTLY HARDER to balance then weapon specific ones. A +20% increase to the AC/20's bullet speed is awesome, but that same 20% would make AC/2 and AC/5's ridiculous hit reg weapons. They had to push back the date to Nov 4 even with these simple buffs. Take a guess how long and how much testing it would take to do general buffs?

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 20 October 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Kodyn, on 20 October 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Alright Krafty, everything you just said, I can't really argue with, I really do get your points.(Old-school Star Wars guy here, so you can imagine how I feel about Disney, etc...comparable situation, so I see what you're getting at)

I'm still all for the quirks either way though lol.

EDIT: And for the record Krafty, I was in fact referring to situations exactly as you described, Comic Shop guys, basically...I was surrounded by them from high-school through my early twenties...some were good friends, but most...*shudder* I grew up in mostly small towns near semi-large cities, so I never got to experience the good side of it you did.

Yeah thats just geography for you. It sucks you had a bad experience. Were not all like that I promise. I totally know of the types of which you speak. They were just fewer and far between in Socal. Huge city, fast moving, big incentive to be hip and to not get your ass kicked. So you stopped acting like a **** to people you played games with.

[Kodyn]

Ah, here we go, everyone just got what they wanted...

http://mwomercs.com/...38#entry3835438

[Mothykins]

Well. Looks Like i got what I asked for.

Check it out.

http://mwomercs.com/...tober-road-map/

[DarkonFullPower]

It's only about half of what we wanted. It's just funny to know that what I speculated about only 5 minutes ago became fact.

[1453 R]

Fabulous!

All right, IS quirk pass is back on track. Perfection, this is exactly what should have happened from the start.

And before people go all over "Now the HBK-4G's still going to suck next to the AC/20 Shadow Hawk!"...ahem, no. The HBK-4G is now 12.5% better with all forms of ballistics known to Man than the Shadow Hawk is. That big stonking hunch means it's 12.5% better in most every stat that matters for a ballistigun than all Shadow Hawks are. With its signature gun it's 12.5% more effective on top of that, which is enough extra oomph to be a very nice reward for a lore-appropriate HBK driver without being such a massive increase as to render all other HBK-4G builds pointless.

Now you have a very good reason to play an AC/20 HBK-4G over an AC/20 Shadow Hawk...as well as playing a Gauss HBK-4G over a Gausshawk, or a dual AC/5 HBK-4G over a dual AC/5 Shadow Hawk, or even a triple-2 DakkaBack over a triple-2 Dakkahawk. To say nothing of the HBK-4H gaining a great deal of needed versatility in its quirk load.

NOW we can ride this train. Lahdee, I feel so much less stressed all'a'sudden.

[Johnny Z]

Cavale, on 20 October 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Well. Looks Like i got what I asked for.

Check it out.

http://mwomercs.com/...tober-road-map/

Not even one complaint reply about this? Cmon trolls you arnt even trying.

[Rhaegor]

I am amazed. Seems like people are happy?

[Kodyn]

i think this should satisfy both sides of the argument, or at least I'd hope it would.

Certainly still gives us the choices of customization we enjoy now, with more incentives and bonuses to specific weapons/weapon families on certain chassis. I'm sure someone will still find fault with it, because it wasn't what they wanted specifically for the game, but this should appease the largest chunk of player-base, while still adding some much needed balance and variety to the IS choices.

Good sheeet.

[Joe Mallad]

ok, the new quirk pass is great! This allows the lore junkies to take their mechs to heart with using them how they were intended, but still give the others a bonus for using other weapons over the intended weapons. I like this a lot.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Am I happy? Content would be a better term for the moment.
Do I think this is a better compromise? Yes indeed.

[gregsolidus]

Great, now shut this nonsense topic that should have never even existed down.

[Tezcatli]

At least now you don't have to feel like it's a complete loss when you equip a weapon other then specialization. And they way they did it is smarter then what I was suggesting. Good job! I hope people appreciate that they listened and didn't simply push the Quirks as they were.