963 replies to this topic

[Little Details]

This change pleases me. It's not my personal, perfect solution, but I understand this game isn't made for my sole benefit. This now allows for *real* customization options to help crap mechs with just a fair bump to PGI's preferred loadout instead of pretty much forcing us to run their version of Champion mechs across every variant.

Thank you for putting this in, Russ.

[Sjorpha]

Good call Russ, I really like that approach.

[Prezimonto]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Fabulous!

All right, IS quirk pass is back on track. Perfection, this is exactly what should have happened from the start.

And before people go all over "Now the HBK-4G's still going to suck next to the AC/20 Shadow Hawk!"...ahem, no. The HBK-4G is now 12.5% better with all forms of ballistics known to Man than the Shadow Hawk is. That big stonking hunch means it's 12.5% better in most every stat that matters for a ballistigun than all Shadow Hawks are. With its signature gun it's 12.5% more effective on top of that, which is enough extra oomph to be a very nice reward for a lore-appropriate HBK driver without being such a massive increase as to render all other HBK-4G builds pointless.

Now you have a very good reason to play an AC/20 HBK-4G over an AC/20 Shadow Hawk...as well as playing a Gauss HBK-4G over a Gausshawk, or a dual AC/5 HBK-4G over a dual AC/5 Shadow Hawk, or even a triple-2 DakkaBack over a triple-2 Dakkahawk. To say nothing of the HBK-4H gaining a great deal of needed versatility in its quirk load.

NOW we can ride this train. Lahdee, I feel so much less stressed all'a'sudden.

I was about to follow up and see if you'd seen that Russ essentially did what you were asking for.... so gg.

[Bishop Steiner]

Oh, I'm not buying it.

Just waiting for the full reveal.

Soon as somebodies pet mech isn't buffed maximum in the way they want, SOMEONE is gonna start raging again. This is MWO. Someone has always gotta be complaining, lol.

But hopefully this slapped some Preparation H on some hurt butts.

[1453 R]

I offer you my solemn vow, Bishop, that it won't be me. For what incredibly little that's worth.

This really is as close to an ideal implementation of the quirks system as I think we can get. It reins in the impossible discrepancy between compliant and non-compliant T4/T5 chassis and widens the scope of customization. Which I know was part of the reason the TT folks didn't want split quirks in the first place, in an attempt to eliminate customization as much as possible without outright removing it, but I really do think this is as close as we're going to get to everybody winning.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Just for Bishop.

The f****d up my AC2 LCT-1V. Who the hell carries ERLL on a Locust anyway, instead of buffing ballistics they buffed its sole energy weapon.





In case you didn't catch it, that was all facetious I don't even own a Lolcust.

[CheeseyPeas]

Woot My Grid Iron is a happy bunny once more.

[Mercules]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

But this system is cutting out Johnny players entirely. Folks like me who enjoy digging deep into a chassis and seeing what little hidden gems of performance can be wrung from it, who smile fat and wide whenever they can surprise someone in a T2 'Mech by taking them down with an inventive, unexpected T4/T5 they thought was a free kill and turned out to not be.

I am very heavily a Johnny style. I don't see that happening at all. All I see is someone who thinks he is a Johnny but I have my doubts about. See.. a Johnny would look at something like the HBK-4G and instead of bemoaning how he can only run it with an AC/20 would see if the generic Energy buff gives him anything to work with.

Johnny would think, well, what are the OTHER types of players going to do with this mech. Realize that both types are going to put an AC/20 in the hunch and NOT do that. Why? Because that is exactly what people will be expecting and because of that they will probably try and take the 4G at range. Johnny would instead think about putting something like ERPPCs in the arms and maybe a Medium Pulse Laser in the head. If he puts anything in the Hunch it might be some MGs for some heat free damage.

When he started to take damage most enemies will shoot the hunch trying to remove the majority of his firepower and waste time and effort removing only a portion. He can twist his CT away and take it on the Hunch to encourage this. Then they only reduce him to a little more than half his normal firepower and if he stacks his LT with heatsinks he will still be able to fire a lot while using up his shield side.


See ------ Johnny approach. You are not having a Johnny approach seeing only one possible build out of that which is the Min/Max build.


EDIT: Whoops... they went and changed things on me. That is what I get for actually PLAYING the game instead of spending the evening reading the forums.

Okay... I can live with these changes. HBK-4G is still encouraged to take an AC/20 but could still take 3 AC/2s and enjoy a benefit. I'm okay with that.

Edited by Mercules, 20 October 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[King Arthur IV]

King Arthur IV, on 18 October 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

guys guys this is the first big balance change since..... ever. like finally they are going to move balancing along and i hope its just the beginning.

there are a lot of possibilities to add in weapon specific quirks so don't get your panties in a bunch since its only the start.

im just happy to finally see them picking up the pace and it really is a good sign so lets not shut it down before it even had a chance to roll out.

all ye of lil faith!
quirk phase 2 already out!

i never had a doubt!

[AlmightyAeng]

Cool, now we'll see if this takes the Hunchie out of line from where it should be, or if it makes it a solid Tier 3...'cause it's not like the Shadowhawk wasn't JUST as known for a bigass shoulder cannon, too

If these buffs make the Hunchie preferable over the SHawk all the time, then there needs to be a numbers adjustment.

Just going by the current example. Still, could be a nice compromise.

[VanillaG]

My only complaint about the previous quirks revolved around mechs getting specific weapon quirks for non-stock weapons. The Centurion-9D got a SRM-4 quirk even though it has ALRM-10 and the infamous Locust LL quirk. In those cases they should have gotten generic missile and generic energy weapon quirks instead of specific "meta approved" quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 21 October 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Cool, now we'll see if this takes the Hunchie out of line from where it should be, or if it makes it a solid Tier 3...'cause it's not like the Shadowhawk wasn't JUST as known for a bigass shoulder cannon, too

If these buffs make the Hunchie preferable over the SHawk all the time, then there needs to be a numbers adjustment.

Just going by the current example. Still, could be a nice compromise.

No JJs, means the SHD will always have that over the HBK.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

No JJs, means the SHD will always have that over the HBK.

That's because the Hunchback is a tough SoB. He doesn't jump for anybody! That's how he roles.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

That's because the Hunchback is a tough SoB. He doesn't jump for anybody! That's how he roles.

well, with it's thunder thighs and cankles, not sure it COULD jump, lol.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

well, with it's thunder thighs and cankles, not sure it COULD jump, lol.

I like how he has a Semi-Truck air ride suspension for legs LOL.




He might stomp around, but the ride is really comfortable.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 21 October 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 October 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I like how he has a Semi-Truck air ride suspension for legs LOL.




He might stomp around, but the ride is really comfortable.

ac20s are dang heavy yo! Don't want Hunchie to get lower back problems, do you?

Especially wearing his KISS Platform Boots

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 October 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[1453 R]

Mercules, on 20 October 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

I am very heavily a Johnny style. I don't see that happening at all. All I see is someone who thinks he is a Johnny but I have my doubts about. See.. a Johnny would look at something like the HBK-4G and instead of bemoaning how he can only run it with an AC/20 would see if the generic Energy buff gives him anything to work with.

Johnny would think, well, what are the OTHER types of players going to do with this mech. Realize that both types are going to put an AC/20 in the hunch and NOT do that. Why? Because that is exactly what people will be expecting and because of that they will probably try and take the 4G at range. Johnny would instead think about putting something like ERPPCs in the arms and maybe a Medium Pulse Laser in the head. If he puts anything in the Hunch it might be some MGs for some heat free damage.

When he started to take damage most enemies will shoot the hunch trying to remove the majority of his firepower and waste time and effort removing only a portion. He can twist his CT away and take it on the Hunch to encourage this. Then they only reduce him to a little more than half his normal firepower and if he stacks his LT with heatsinks he will still be able to fire a lot while using up his shield side.

Just because this argument caught my attention:

First of all, your Crouching Tiger Hidden Sniper thing comes apart the moment someone presses 'R' - or in fact the moment that someone realizes that HBK-4G in the background there just slammed a couple of particle bolts in one's general direction. If people after that waste time firing on an up-armored, empty hunch instead of going after the thinly armored arms which contain effectively all of your firepower, well, that's their issue.

The reason your "the HBK-4G gets energy buffs too, idjit!" argument never really bothered me was that the HBK-4G is a p!ss-poor energy platform to begin with, carrying only two main weapon-sized energy hardpoints and those in low-slung, easily wrecked arms. Certainly you could ignore the ballistics entirely and try to put together a plasma-fists Punchback, but even then, the energy quirks aren't really suited to PPCs, ER or otherwise. The heat gen would certainly help, but range isn't the PPC's problem these days as a sniping weapon, it's shot velocity. A much better idea would be to use ERLL, at which point you would get Clan-like range from the beams (776-meter effective range post-quirkage, exceeding the effective range of the stock C-ERLL) as well as much more manageable heat over a pair of ER PPCs, which would have run hella hot even with the energy heat gen reductions.

Remembering that this is pre-splitquirks, you're left with a choice - STD 275 for zombie potential with a handful of machine guns and other assorted support gizmos, leaving your pair of ERLL as your only effective armament - which is an 'effective' armament bettered by many Spheroid light 'Mechs - or go with a 275XL and count on range as your shield, which gives you enough weight for a single AC/5 (heaviest gun that still leaves room for ammo) in that up-armored hunch. It could be argued either way based on pilot preference; I happen to be an incurable XL junkie, but I know a lot of people who shudder with horror at the thought of an XL Hunchback.

Assuming this, we now have an XL-fragile energy-centric Punchback with a non-compliant stock AC/5 in that hunch instead of its compliant megafine AC/20. With two long-range, low-heat ERLL as its primary weapons backed up by an even lower heat stock AC/5 for situations where one's riding the red, this Punchback makes for a semi-half-competent sniper...except that its beams are low-mounted in fragile arms, it can't jump to move around terrain and find good sightlines, and it wastes the 'Mech's excellent torso mobility. Certainly any other sniping fit wastes the 'Mech's torso mobility as well, but hunch-mounted sniping does, at the least, offer it some ridge-peeking capabilities.

It wouldn't necessarily be a horrible fit (though it's still T4.5 at best), but it would also very clearly not be a proper fit for the chassis. It would not be taking two bucks and figuring out how to make two bucks do the same job as five bucks. It might be making two bucks do the same job as three and a half bucks, but that still leaves me a buck and a half short.

'Course it doesn't matter nearly so much now Mostly I just wanted to compare notes and point out some of the differences in end results. Discussions like this one are a guilty pleasure of mine, and part of the thing I was going to miss with the old quirk system interpretation. Now those discussions are back! Whee!

BISHOP! PPCs or ERLL in the 4G's arms for a weird off-quirk HBK-4G! Which would you go with and why?

[KraftySOT]

I dont even take JJs on my shadowhawk. Taking up valuable tonnage to GO FASTER.

Jumping very rarely puts me into a position to nuke you with SRM6s, and it sure as hell never gets me out of a situation any faster than another 4 tons of engine would.

And im not even whining I lose a "Quirk" because it has something ill never take.

So what.

Who hates free cake?

At least this thread was derailed for a while and seems to have calmed down a bit.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

ac20s are dang heavy yo! Don't want Hunchie to get lower back problems, do you?

Especially wearing his KISS Platform Boots

If that's what the Hunchback needs to carry its AC20 I can't imagine what my Cicada needs to carry BOTH its AC20s.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 21 October 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[KraftySOT]

1453 R, on 21 October 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Just because this argument caught my attention:

First of all, your Crouching Tiger Hidden Sniper thing comes apart the moment someone presses 'R' - or in fact the moment that someone realizes that HBK-4G in the background there just slammed a couple of particle bolts in one's general direction. If people after that waste time firing on an up-armored, empty hunch instead of going after the thinly armored arms which contain effectively all of your firepower, well, that's their issue.

The reason your "the HBK-4G gets energy buffs too, idjit!" argument never really bothered me was that the HBK-4G is a p!ss-poor energy platform to begin with, carrying only two main weapon-sized energy hardpoints and those in low-slung, easily wrecked arms. Certainly you could ignore the ballistics entirely and try to put together a plasma-fists Punchback, but even then, the energy quirks aren't really suited to PPCs, ER or otherwise. The heat gen would certainly help, but range isn't the PPC's problem these days as a sniping weapon, it's shot velocity. A much better idea would be to use ERLL, at which point you would get Clan-like range from the beams (776-meter effective range post-quirkage, exceeding the effective range of the stock C-ERLL) as well as much more manageable heat over a pair of ER PPCs, which would have run hella hot even with the energy heat gen reductions.

Remembering that this is pre-splitquirks, you're left with a choice - STD 275 for zombie potential with a handful of machine guns and other assorted support gizmos, leaving your pair of ERLL as your only effective armament - which is an 'effective' armament bettered by many Spheroid light 'Mechs - or go with a 275XL and count on range as your shield, which gives you enough weight for a single AC/5 (heaviest gun that still leaves room for ammo) in that up-armored hunch. It could be argued either way based on pilot preference; I happen to be an incurable XL junkie, but I know a lot of people who shudder with horror at the thought of an XL Hunchback.

Assuming this, we now have an XL-fragile energy-centric Punchback with a non-compliant stock AC/5 in that hunch instead of its compliant megafine AC/20. With two long-range, low-heat ERLL as its primary weapons backed up by an even lower heat stock AC/5 for situations where one's riding the red, this Punchback makes for a semi-half-competent sniper...except that its beams are low-mounted in fragile arms, it can't jump to move around terrain and find good sightlines, and it wastes the 'Mech's excellent torso mobility. Certainly any other sniping fit wastes the 'Mech's torso mobility as well, but hunch-mounted sniping does, at the least, offer it some ridge-peeking capabilities.

It wouldn't necessarily be a horrible fit (though it's still T4.5 at best), but it would also very clearly not be a proper fit for the chassis. It would not be taking two bucks and figuring out how to make two bucks do the same job as five bucks. It might be making two bucks do the same job as three and a half bucks, but that still leaves me a buck and a half short.

'Course it doesn't matter nearly so much now Mostly I just wanted to compare notes and point out some of the differences in end results. Discussions like this one are a guilty pleasure of mine, and part of the thing I was going to miss with the old quirk system interpretation. Now those discussions are back! Whee!

BISHOP! PPCs or ERLL in the 4G's arms for a weird off-quirk HBK-4G! Which would you go with and why?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Your synopsis that as soon as someone hits R the jig is up is ******. Depending on your position, if youre not off by your lonesome, no one comes to harrass your sniper position.