963 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

ac20 is perfect for hit and run. Aim, shoot, twist, run. Rinse, wash and repeat.

I am a Medium Mech Jock, and ambush specialist. My primary playstyle is Hit and Run Flankers and Skirmishers. There's a reason there is a devoted Cult of the YLW. Because any time you marry decent mobility to 20 pts PP-FLD, you have a winner.

BJ-1X knife-fighter. 8 ML's and an awareness of your heat at a blazing 116 kph. Our flankers should hang out. lol

Edited by Ghost Badger, 21 October 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Not saying I havent seen Raven AC20s kill things and do well. Just that I cant do it.

I couldnt make my hunchie fearsome no matter how hard I tried. No one runs from your AC20, they just back off, or nuke you before you nuke them. Youre trying to lodge this buick sized projectile in their CT at exactly the cooldown extinction, and theyre just blasting your CT to pieces.

I find it far easier to run up, pulse you, run away. If I miss, im not kicking myself for the .17 tons I just wasted.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 October 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Mercules]

1453 R, on 21 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Well, being fair, Mercules wanted an energy-centric sniper built on a 4G.

Technically, I don't think I said "sniper". I think you assumed I meant Sniper because of the ERPPCs. The fact of the matter is that ER are better than regular up close so a Brawler mech can make better use of ERPPCs. PPCs over lasers because of the fire then twist away scenario. Being a brawler means I can snuggle up to that DDC in his ECM and shoot past him and by having a DDC or something else nearby people will not likely be targeting me with R long enough to get my loadout.

[KraftySOT]

Ghost Badger, on 21 October 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

BJ-1X knife-fighter. 8 ML's and an awareness of your heat at a blazing 116 kph. Our flankers should hang out. lol

Thats more my speed, but of course with pulse lasers lol

[Voivode]

This thread can die now. Latest update to the October Roadmap is basically splitting quirks up so that, for example, the Hunchback 4G gets a general boost to ballistic weapon cooldown and an extra, stacking buff for the AC20. Ditto for the 4H and the AC10. They said since it won't be til the 4th they have time to split it up this way.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 21 October 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I cant make my Raven ac20 work as hard as I try. The hunchy was the first mech I bought in MWO, and I couldnt get that to work to my satisfaction either. I ran 2 ERLL and AC20 forever, until switching to medium pulse. Finally sold it off and got a Banshee 3E, which does what I wanted the Hunchback to do the entire time.

Now that im branching back into mediums and lights, ive noticed that if I want to nuke mechs, I have to either be unnoticed, or come to a complete stop to hit exactly what I want with all my weapons, and then zoom off. (boom and zoom? Is that a thing here? I know its an air combat move) So I want the highest damage in the shortest amount of time, with the most accuracy.

And ive noticed if im spreading damage at a full run...I just straight up want heat management and DPS. FLD doesnt matter because most of it comes with a slow rate of fire and a projectile that doesnt hit where all my other weapons are hitting. I want to limit exposure time, thus I want DPS. FLD is nice, but not at the cost of putting my weapons where I want...and of course...ammo...im trying to maximize tonnage in these small dudes.

ac20 raven is a joke build too fragile at it's speed.

2 ER larges and ac20, well, your first problem was heat. Mpl, still hot, and short ranged.

As for not hitting where the rest hit, it's practice, man. I got no issue putting my separate weapon systems where I want.

[AlmightyAeng]

Voivode, on 21 October 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

This thread can die now. Latest update to the October Roadmap is basically splitting quirks up so that, for example, the Hunchback 4G gets a general boost to ballistic weapon cooldown and an extra, stacking buff for the AC20. Ditto for the 4H and the AC10. They said since it won't be til the 4th they have time to split it up this way.

Lol dude, you're a bit late. That was already discussed, and now they're discussing how to use it best for builds.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

ac20 raven is a joke build too fragile at it's speed.

2 ER larges and ac20, well, your first problem was heat. Mpl, still hot, and short ranged.

As for not hitting where the rest hit, it's practice, man. I got no issue putting my separate weapon systems where I want.

I dont have that problem in the Banshee...but when im whipping around at 85+kph...or Ravenspeeeed...then its an issue. The longer the range, the more the issue.

And yeah heat wasnt great, but I got enough shots off to do 130 damage before im in 90%. Which if its all in the CT, is enough to ill just about everything out there.

My issue was as I said, if theyre out of my best range, well now im down 70 damage I did. Since the AC20 and lasers arent cycling the same, and I want to do as much damage as possible, as well as being rocked by enemy fire, im down to 45 or so to the CT, if theyre twisting effectively, I either have to wait to fire, or im spreading it (why I hated ERLL, the burn time) so im down to 30 or so to CT.

Now I killed nothing and im near shutdown.

Whereas in the Banshee, I round a corner, and its 107.2 damage in your CT in 3.5 seconds. Ill still leave the coffee sitting securely in your coffee mug in your cockpit, with a giant gaping hole where your engine used to be.

Thats more what I expect out of a hunchback lol. But I just couldnt do it. Once I discovered the Pulse lasers tho...I realized my personal problem was the burn time. The more damage I do in the least amount of time, the more all that damage goes into what im shooting at.

Which is why im also super against our pin point convergence on every bloody weapon instantly. Id totally prefer if I couldnt nuke you. Im just kind of prone to those sorts of builds.

Heat to me generally doesnt matter unless the enemy isnt dead before shutdown, or on the alpha that shuts me down

I know im terribad.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 October 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[KraftySOT]

So basically im looking at a hunchback in one way. How can I kill the most amount of mechs on the field, as fast as possible.

Well that means a couple things. I need killer initial heat management, so above the usual 35% or so for big nuke builds, for one extra alpha when using the cooling module. I need to do 140 damage (brawling) or 50 damage (back shotting) in 10 seconds and shut down on the last strike, but not enough to kill me.

I need speed so I can get position.

I need to be in a position where I can shoot the most fragile part of the enemy.

I need to do alot of DPS so I can destroy that enemy as fast as possible, with the most amount of damage in the least amount of time at the highest level of accuracy.

I dont want to rock the enemy like a hurricane, so he stops paying attention to whatever he's paying attention to then pay attention to me.


If I can achieve that, im going to rock face. If not. I suck wind and did 110 damage with no assists and no kills, because the first thing I ran into, killed me, one alpha before I killed it.

And theres Kraftys life as a Mechwarrior. Its not glorious. Its not heroic. It doesnt even always work. But its hard bein spacepoor. Gotta do what ones gotta do.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 October 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 21 October 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

So basically im looking at a hunchback in one way. How can I kill the most amount of mechs on the field, as fast as possible.

Well that means a couple things. I need killer initial heat management, so above the usual 35% or so for big nuke builds, for one extra alpha when using the cooling module. I need to do 140 damage (brawling) or 50 damage (back shotting) in 10 seconds and shut down on the last strike, but not enough to kill me.

I need speed so I can get position.

I need to be in a position where I can shoot the most fragile part of the enemy.

I need to do alot of DPS so I can destroy that enemy as fast as possible, with the most amount of damage in the least amount of time at the highest level of accuracy.

I dont want to rock the enemy like a hurricane, so he stops paying attention to whatever he's paying attention to then pay attention to me.


If I can achieve that, im going to rock face. If not. I suck wind and did 110 damage with no assists and no kills, because the first thing I ran into, killed me, one alpha before I killed it.

And theres Kraftys life as a Mechwarrior. Its not glorious. Its not heroic. It doesnt even always work. But its hard bein spacepoor. Gotta do what ones gotta do.

First rule of Mediums..:maximum Carnage, Shortest time, is the bailiwick of Assaults. Mediums thrive on the periphery, looking for ways to flanks and lay our damage in backs, and open armor.

Toe to Toe Juggernauting will kill you every time.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

First rule of Mediums..:maximum Carnage, Shortest time, is the bailiwick of Assaults. Mediums thrive on the periphery, looking for ways to flanks and lay our damage in backs, and open armor.

Toe to Toe Juggernauting will kill you every time.

Thats my issue then. I mean im usually not trying to toe to toe, but I end up running with the mechball until they engage, flanking someone theyre engaged with, then they all back off and im left sitting there surrounded by the enemy.

Not a bad position for my Wubshee...that sir is a target rich environment...

But in a Hunchback its doom.

I just couldnt bring myself to sit at the edges of a fight in a Hunchback. Its....a Hunchback. I still feel like weapons in the arms are just preventing me from firing them since im going to be punching Theres still some transitioning I need to do to this bloody game.

That said I have huge fun in my Raven with 2xERLL, doing exactly what you describe. Im just playing mediums wrong.

[IceSerpent]

KraftySOT, on 21 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Thats my issue then. I mean im usually not trying to toe to toe, but I end up running with the mechball until they engage, flanking someone theyre engaged with, then they all back off and im left sitting there surrounded by the enemy.

That's where your issue is - a medium should always be moving, sitting anywhere near the enemy is generally a Bad Idea ™.

[Pjwned]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 19 October 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

Here's the thing though: If those quirks were all general ("+X% Energy Weapon Range" and similar) or even if they were a general/specific stacking, how is PGI to balance them across 100+ variants without making every variant a big generic blob with the same quirks? It wouldn't be very different than how it is now, you would just look at the variants that got a ballistics quirk, then use the one that's heaviest/has the best hitboxes for your AC20/Gauss mech, and ignore all the other ones.

Just like how the Shadowhawk is an empirically better AC20 platform than the Hunchback, right now.

With specific quirks instead, PGI can make them larger, noticable buffs and since they're more specific they can more easily distinguish variants. Does this mean we're likely to see less build diversity within a specific variant? Probably. But the other side of that coin is that (if done right) it will result in seeing more variants being played, ultimately INCREASING build diversity.

The idea is that instead of simply choosing the 'best' mech and loading up whatever preferred guns you want on it, instead you will think to yourself "Hey I like X type of weapons, which chassis/variant takes advantage of those?"

With that sort of system in place, now there is a reason to use an HBK-4G instead of a Shadowhawk variant if you want an AC20 - because the 4G is better at leveraging it. Now if you want AC5s then the Shadowhawk is likely to get buffs to that, or you can move up 5 tons and play a Dragon that gets 50% faster cooldown on them.

The idea is to get more types of mechs actually being played, instead of the same half-dozen 'meta-approved' ones constantly. There are other ways to do that, but people don't seem open to the idea of sized hardpoints or removing customization entirely. The proposed quirks system (no nerf, just buffs if you choose to build to take advantage of them) strikes me as a decent enough compromise between "I should be able to do anything I want!" (you can) and "This is how Mech A is supposed to be played" (you don't have to, but you get a bonus for doing it).

A rather late response but with an example like the HBK-4G, where the mech is well known for/was designed around a somewhat specific build, I do agree that weapon specific buffs are good, hence why I said "not every single mech should have quirks that are almost universally good for each basic weapon type," but looking at the list it just seemed like there were a couple examples where the quirks could be a little more broad without really hurting balance and it might indicate a worrying trend.

EDIT: I didn't get the chance to read this part

Quote

IS Quirk pass update.

I spent the entire day and got about half way done implementing a global change to the initial IS Quirk pass. It always felt that phase 2 of this IS Quirk pass was going to help broaden the reach of what weapons they impacted.

Therefore I decided since the Quirk pass was delayed until Nov 4th anyhow I had time to implement these changes now.

So here is where we ended up by way of example:

Hunchback 4G - Tier 5 Brawler

[color=#4A86E8]Additional Armor (RT) +18[/color]
[color=#9900FF]Additional Structure (RT) +12[/color]
[color=#E69138]AC/20 Range +12.5%[/color]
[color=#E69138]Ballistic Weapon Range +12.5%[/color]
[color=#E69138]AC/20 Cooldown +12.5%[/color]
[color=#E69138]Ballistic Weapon Cooldown +12.5%[/color]
[color=#E69138]AC/20 Velocity +12.5%[/color]
[color=#E69138]Ballistic Weapon Velocity +12.5%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Energy Weapon Heat Gen -15%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Energy Weapon Range +15%[/color]


- Yes all of the values stack with each other.
- Yes Cooldown is represented with a + symbol but that means being able to fire your weapon faster.

So you can see that we still completely accomplish our goal of making a statement that this 4G is about the AC20 and the quirks will stack in a way to make it just as effective as the previous quirk pass I teased last week. However now if you simply must take out AC2's then you will still bring in half of the ballistic benefit.

The new rule set is that each Weapon Specific quirk gives half to the specific weapon and half to the global family.


As compared to the Hunchback 4H - Tier 4 Skirmisher

[color=#4A86E8]Additional Armor (RT) +18[/color]
[color=#9900FF]Additional Structure (RT) +12[/color]
[color=#E69138]AC/10 Range +10%[/color]
[color=#E69138]Ballistic Weapon Range +10%[/color]
[color=#E69138]AC/10 Cooldown +10%[/color]
[color=#E69138]Ballistic Weapon Cooldown +10%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Medium Laser Cooldown +10%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Energy Weapon Cooldown +10%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Medium Laser Heat Gen -10%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]Energy Weapon Heat Gen -10%[/color]
[color=#FF0000]

[/color]

That's pretty awesome actually, I suppose you could still argue that it's a bit limiting for certain variants but that pretty much addresses any concerns I had.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 October 2014 - 02:09 AM.

[Oogalook]

Please see update to original post.

http://mwomercs.com/...84#entry3826584

This argument got a bit out of hand, but I thank those who got the point and honestly discussed it. Those who got butthurt and couldn't quit shouting may take a break to ice it down and think about life. Those who indiscriminately shot down complaints about the original proposition can go boil your bottoms in empathy.
Good day!

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Oogalook, on 22 October 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Please see update to original post.

http://mwomercs.com/...84#entry3826584

This argument got a bit out of hand, but I thank those who got the point and honestly discussed it. Those who got butthurt and couldn't quit shouting may take a break to ice it down and think about life. Those who indiscriminately shot down complaints about the original proposition can go boil your bottoms in empathy.
Good day!

Way to be a bad loser. This was a decent post until you decided to take potshots.

[Bishop Steiner]

Oogalook, on 22 October 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Please see update to original post.

http://mwomercs.com/...84#entry3826584

This argument got a bit out of hand, but I thank those who got the point and honestly discussed it. Those who got butthurt and couldn't quit shouting may take a break to ice it down and think about life. Those who indiscriminately shot down complaints about the original proposition can go boil your bottoms in empathy.
Good day!

yes because only those who disagreed with your premise caused any issues.

GGClose.

[Johnny Z]

JozefK, on 17 October 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

And i thought that WG and Gaijin are greedy.

I'm playing this game for over a month now and all what i have seen PGI is doing is trying to maximize profit. Every single change is aimed at making players desparate to visit the shop. No improvements on other fields whatsoever.

Quirks - basicaly PGI has figured that players are not motivated to buy many mech variants because they can simply reconfigure the one they have. With quirks, they will make your gameplay less variant and therefore you will need to obtain new variants.

EDIT: wow looking at the replies, so many people completely missed the point.

Quirks or the proper word characteristics but less usable, are an excellent example of how building the game, the right way can benefit both the players and the company doing the building. Its true that this isnt always the case and that straight out money grabs can be the norm but not in this case.

The norm in the game industry very recently is push out blue vrs red tdm. Until this game offers alot more I wont be happy either, but luckily Mechwarrior seems to be close to offering more fairly soon and will continue on using its profits to growing the game. One of the main benefits of free to play/pay for content games.

Most importantly, quirks will make Mechwarrior mechs more Mechwarrior.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 October 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

KraftySOT, on 21 October 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Thats more my speed, but of course with pulse lasers lol

Jester with 350 (or 360XL) and MPLs. Wub wub wub!

[Johnny Z]

The next question when it comes to mech quirks or characteristics is will they add sized hard points at some time in the future.

Its seems to make sense that there has to be some of this added at some time even if very loosely for appearance sake. An ac 20 in a Raven shouldnt be possible for instance.

[Dracol]

Johnny Z, on 22 October 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

The next question when it comes to mech quirks or characteristics is will they add sized hard points at some time in the future.

Its seems to make sense that there has to be some of this added at some time even if very loosely for appearance sake. An ac 20 in a Raven shouldnt be possible for instance.

A good, something we can debate about and continue this thread to 50 pages!

No to sized hard points because that would kill customization. And who says a 35 ton mech shouldn't be able to mount an ac/20? The mech police?