84 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

SaltBeef, on 02 April 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

I suspect they will still be gimped even after their .5 percent quirk increases.

A little worried about the Nova...it's likely not going to get Dragon level armour quirks, even if it's equally bad hitbox wise (while also being lighter), has a chance to lose the 10% less heat (to offset the 120% and 150% heat nerfs on lasers), although it might get some agility.

Mist Lynx has a similar issue...but hopefully keeps all the armour it already has. Heat is a concern, but those arms are more of a concern.

Well, at least I've got the Banshee, that isn't likely to change much.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 05:41 AM, said:

Well, at least I've got the Banshee, that isn't likely to change much.

Indeed. I cried a few tears of sadness when they took 5% of my range and heat gen quirks away, but its still my baby. Added bonus because its IS (and not a Firestarter) no one cries about it so hopefully it wont get nerfed. Hilariously not even on the Metamechs list of approved assaults. LAWL, that guy...

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 April 2015 - 05:46 AM, said:

Indeed. I cried a few tears of sadness when they took 5% of my range and heat gen quirks away, but its still my baby. Added bonus because its IS (and not a Firestarter) no one cries about it so hopefully it wont get nerfed. Hilariously not even on the Metamechs list of approved assaults. LAWL, that guy...

I'm thinking of reverting to my Sig WubShee, for improved heat efficiency and cooling. MPLs were buffed by the LPL quirk change, and it gains a few heatsinks at the cost of losing Endo and a BAP.

While 58 damage is nice, it can't sustain fire like I want it to....and apparently as much as the MM expects it to carry.


At least the Cute Fox can only gain, like losing the S legs negative quirks.
Fridge can't get any worse, and Mr Gargles...well, maybe more agile. That'd be nice. I feel considerably more agile in the WubShee, which I find hilarious.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

I'm thinking of reverting to my Sig WubShee, for improved heat efficiency and cooling. MPLs were buffed by the LPL quirk change, and it gains a few heatsinks at the cost of losing Endo and a BAP.

While 58 damage is nice, it can't sustain fire like I want it to....and apparently as much as the MM expects it to carry.


At least the Cute Fox can only gain, like losing the S legs negative quirks.
Fridge can't get any worse, and Mr Gargles...well, maybe more agile. That'd be nice. I feel considerably more agile in the WubShee, which I find hilarious.

Have you seen the hilarious torso twist quirks on the fridge? they all get basic 180° twist now, but one of the STs has +13° - meaning if you equip it you can twist 193°. if you try that though you bump into the halfway point behind you and cant turn further. I.e. that quirk is literally as useful as the pinpoint elite skill, or an inflatable dartboard.

I play my wubshee very differently to you it seems, i use 5xLPLs and 2xSLs

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 April 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 April 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

I play my wubshee very differently to you it seems, i use 5xLPLs and 2xSLs

Alpha every day, Wub their face, get instant kills.

At 250M, at least. I'm not a fan of range, I prefer brawling.

[Almond Brown]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

No.Really it doesn't

So despite one being 15 for 15 and the other being 10 for 15, they are the same? And I thought Maths was hard. Wowzers..

I.S. ER PPC  10.00  15.00   4.00    810  1,620

C-ER PPC  15.00  15.00  4.00    810  1,620

[Widowmaker1981]

Mcgral18, on 02 April 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

Alpha every day, Wub their face, get instant kills.

At 250M, at least. I'm not a fan of range, I prefer brawling.

Ah yeah, im more of a mid range skirmisher/peeker. im generally not happy unless i have a nice hill to reverse behind if i start taking fire

[Mike Forst]

Quxudica, on 02 April 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Won't happen, but I'd like to see quirks not be so weapon centric. To much of the game is geared toward dealing damage and I'd rather see some quirks for other things. Sensor range, ECM/BAP/TAG effectiveness, damage type resistance, critical resistance. Just something more than "dull % boost to whatever current meta is"

I would love to do all these kinds of things but the quirks aren't available for many of them right now.

[FupDup]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

Shooting moving mechs at 800m should be hard. Hillhumpers and stationary enemies are the one you usually should aim for. The difficulty in efficiently using weapons systems was imo always one of the great things about MWO.

The weapon is called the ERPPC.

Extended Range Particle Projector Cannon.

Extended Range is right in the name. That kinda indicates that they were meant to be good at a distance. Otherwise, why would they extend its range? That 810m range means nothing if the weapon is not actually effective at that distance. It's just like how SRMs are pretty bad at 270m, or the LB 10-X is nearly useless at 540m, etc...

Also notice how it generates 15 heat. What's the drawback of heat? It means you can't sustain your fire as much as low heat weapons. When does sustainability matter the most? When you can't duck away from the enemy. When does that happen the most? During close range brawls.


So, this summarizes to be a weapon that has "Extended Range" right in its name, with traits like high heat to make it a liability in short range fighting. This kind of all leads to the conclusion that this is a gun designed to fight at long ranges but be outclassed by brawler guns up close.

Right now, it's outclassed at range unless you've got megaquirks while still being outclassed up close.

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

Mind tho, i still think ERPPCs in general are not very good, to say the least. Very, very niche weapon, since the insane range rarely comes into play. But imagine if Clans got good normal PPCs: That would mean the IS advantage of frontloaded damage would be gone.

If you want insane range energy weapons, you currently use ER Large Lasers (both factions) or Clan Large Pulse Lasers unless your mech has pretty huge PPC quirks. Both of those choices are typically superior at most ranges with way less heat and traveling at the speed of light.

[Gas Guzzler]

I noticed a discussion on PPCs began in this thread. I have a solution. Buff the velocity of ER PPCs back to the original value (before the last speed nerf, not the 2000m/s days or anything). Buff the velocity of PPCs to 1200ish.

"But OMG then the Dire can 50 pt PPFLD and I like to stand still in light mechs so I will get one shotted!! NAAAOOOOO!!!"

Keep calm and give -10%/-15% ER PPC velocity quirks to Dire Wolf. No one uses ER PPCs on them anyway except in combination with Gauss, which will leave it more or less where it is now.

[AlphaToaster]

Summoner -> Movement type set to MEDIUM.
Summoner -> JJ thrust doubled.

So what if it allows this mech to poptart. The most it'll ever hit for is a couple erPPC or 1 PPC and 1 Guass. And with the movement type set to Medium, when it comes time for knockdown, other Heavies will be able to bowl it over.

This mech isn't heavily armed as it's intended to be a medium-style skirmisher in a heavies body.

The Summoner was so fun when clans first were released, I almost bought a gold one, and then changes happened.

PGI, you're losing money over here, fix it please.

People complaining that there are Timby's and Hellbringers all over the place. We're about to see the Cauldron Born (mini Direwolf) hit the scene, and the Summoner is still crap. Allow that one mech to poptart with it's fragile frame and low weapon tonnage and I guarantee people will be running them more.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 02 April 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

Fuggles, on 01 April 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

april 7th patch were getting
"Quirks Pass on Clan mechs both new and some iteration on others"

so what kind of quirks are you hoping to see?

i know having just leveled up warhawks id love to see them get some love, here's what id like to see:

lt/rt all variants 15 armor
prime L/R arms and A LA 15% CERPPC velocity increase, -5% energy heat -7.5% erppc heat (each arm)
A RA 10% ballistic cd
A RT 5% missle cd

for the nova id love to see + cerslas, csplas range, further energy heat reduction, as well as armor/structure buffs all over, it seriously needs some defensive love.

Summoner

Either an increase in the amount of thrust (and thus height) its JJs produce, or an increase in the 'pool' of JJ fuel it has so it can JJ longer and reach higher over time instead of quicker with increased thrust.

The entire point of the Summoner is its high mobility for a Heavy. This was partially changed for the better by the top speed increase, but will make the Summoner truly shine with having its JJs fixed.

[Weeny Machine]

Averen, on 02 April 2015 - 12:49 AM, said:

Shooting moving mechs at 800m should be hard. Hillhumpers and stationary enemies are the one you usually should aim for. The difficulty in efficiently using weapons systems was imo always one of the great things about MWO.

Exactly that's the problem. PPCs, especially ERPPCs, are supposed to be one of the best point weapons on great distances. There is even a saying in the lore "I evaded the lasers only to stumble into the PPC fire". The price for the punch and range is the heat.In MWO (ER)PPCs are close ore mid-range weapons because of the velocity. Don't get me wrong, velocity is fine but I still find it too slow even on quirked mechs. Lasers rule there surpreme (If you aren't poptarting)Mind tho, i still think ERPPCs in general are not very good, to say the least. Very, very niche weapon, since the insane range rarely comes into play. But imagine if Clans got good normal PPCs: That would mean the IS advantage of frontloaded damage would be gone.



Too much frontloaded damage was once a big issue. Frankly, i'm more than happy about the current dynamic between frontloaded and dps weaponry. Both has it's place and uses.

(ER)PPC are iconic in Battletech and THE weapon: feared for their punch and range. Too bad that in MWO this isn't the case thanks to velocity. Lasers rule their surpreme.A velocity boost across the board would be great

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 April 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Mike Forst]

AlphaToaster, on 02 April 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Summoner -> Movement type set to MEDIUM.
Summoner -> JJ thrust doubled.

So what if it allows this mech to poptart. The most it'll ever hit for is a couple erPPC or 1 PPC and 1 Guass. And with the movement type set to Medium, when it comes time for knockdown, other Heavies will be able to bowl it over.

This mech isn't heavily armed as it's intended to be a medium-style skirmisher in a heavies body.

The Summoner was so fun when clans first were released, I almost bought a gold one, and then changes happened.

PGI, you're losing money over here, fix it please.

People complaining that there are Timby's and Hellbringers all over the place. We're about to see the Cauldron Born (mini Direwolf) hit the scene, and the Summoner is still crap. Allow that one mech to poptart with it's fragile frame and low weapon tonnage and I guarantee people will be running them more.

I've commented on this before elsewhere but it's good to repeat it:

Movement types affect two things: the space (height and width) a mech can fit through and how it climbs hills. The hill climb part can be decoupled but not via quirks and the Summoner has not been evaluated for that change yet. Changing the type to medium would cause the mech to clip through the world geometry and that is a Bad Thing.

Jump jets do not have any quirks available aside from the ones used to hardwire jets to an OmniPod. There is no way currently to make one mech have more thrust than another.

As much as I'd like to help the Summoner in this way I simply don't have the tools available.

[Sorbic]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 April 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

Boating PPFLD that you cant sustain for very long. Waarhawk can fire 7 times, then has to slow down to 1 shot every like 3 seconds or so, and that is to ride the 83-99% line...1 shot, 99%, cool off, 83%, fire, 99%...not a good way to go....or back up to cool off, dealing 0 dmg for the duration. Lesser mechs can do less than that, and dealing like 30 dmg for 45 heat is not a worthy trade off....you do realize that after 8 shots, its only 80 dmg? THat is barely enough to scare a heavy, then velocity will ensure half that 80 misses or spreads...

Adder, it can fire like 4 times and its shutting down...and for 40 dmg? 60 heat? That seems right?

Large Pulse Laser? You can dual fire them like 6 times before shutting down.

I get the whole "Unlimited ammo Gauss RIfle", but GRs and ERPPCs are very different. GRs are 1 heat, 15 dmg.....so you can fire till the bin runs dry. ERPPCs? Your limited by your heat, that leaves you in very bad ways when its not managed right...shutting down at just the wrong moment?

The heat more then balances a 13-15 dmg CERPPC....

"you do realize that after 8 shots, its only 80 dmg" No it's 120 dmg as CERPPC's do 15 dmg not 10. And no the "PP is only 10" argument won't fly when you are comparing them to LASERS.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Deathlike, on 01 April 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Would it make sense at this point to have the IS ERPPC be faster in terms of velocity than the Clan ERPPC, given that the Clan ERPPC does additional damage?

I mean... the IS PPC is generally better than the Clan ERPPC when it comes to heat, but that's it... and the PPC being slower than the Clan ERPPC is fine.. but adjusting those numbers in that order would be the only way to differentiate the PPCs.

To visualize, I'd like the velocity of the PPCs go in this order (from slowest to fastest):
PPC
Clan ERPPC
IS ERPPC

Yeah, basically..

PPC: 10/10, 3.75s CD, 1200ms, 540? range
ISERPPC: 10/13, 4s CD, 1300ms, 810 range
CERPPC: 15/15, 5s CD, 1150ms, 810 range.

Then, IS ERPPC quirks for speed and heat reduction get dropped or vastly reduced on all mechs but the AWS and CPLT-K2.

CERPPC quirks are dropped or reduced for all mechs except the WHK, ADR, HBR and SMN, Those 4 mechs get quirks that buff velocity up between 1200-1300ms. I can see a slight difference in the ADR's 1200 and the Warhawk's 1050, barely, but its noticeable. Warhawk at 450m, I can count to about "one one thous..." ADR, I get to like "One one Tho". And firing it, there is a slight speed buff. I feel that 1300ms really would be about the perfect speed, an additional 100ms would put ERPPCs in a good spot. Needing lead, but not a country mile like we need now.

And if people and PGI are worried about troll builds like Dire Stars, 6PPC Stalkers and other troll builds.....that should not sway their decision to buff PPCs at all. THose builds are troll builds and nothing more. Barely functional, good for a 1 time lol or w/e and the mech dies.....yes, its irritating as **** to see, but its a very bad build that should not be. Its a 1 in a million occurance, and it goes away once the people see it and have done it...then the fun is gone....

So, PGI, buff back up PPCs......let us add PPCs to our arsenals once again. And if PGI is worried we will all go to PPC builds, it will only be because we have only had laser vomit for over a year and wanna see some other variety...

PPC TBRs, PPC everything just cuz everyone will be breating a sigh of relief and be all FREEDOOOOOMMM!!!! Of getting away from laser vomit everything.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 02 April 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Sorbic, on 02 April 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

"you do realize that after 8 shots, its only 80 dmg" No it's 120 dmg as CERPPC's do 15 dmg not 10. And no the "PP is only 10" argument won't fly when you are comparing them to LASERS.

No, its 80 PPD, that 2.5 split is redundant and very pointless....it has no worth while effect. Sure, its 2.5 damage, but seriously? CERPPC are 10/15s for all practical intents and purposes.

[BigJim]

Mike Forst, on 02 April 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

I would love to do all these kinds of things but the quirks aren't available for many of them right now.

Mike Forst, on 02 April 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

As much as I'd like to help the Summoner in this way I simply don't have the tools available.

Not the answers I was hoping for as such, but I like how this guy is open about the limitations he's working with (or against) at a given time - reasonable discussion like this is what I hope to see (from everyone, us included) when I come here.

Thumb.

*EDIT* Why am I a blue fist? Gah, contrac'ss.. :s

Edited by BigJim, 02 April 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Mike Forst]

Update on posting the preview: due to the long weekend it won't be available until mid Monday.

[Fuggles]

Mike Forst, on 02 April 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Update on posting the preview: due to the long weekend it won't be available until mid Monday.

thanks for the update!