144 replies to this topic

[Ashvins]

The Matchmaker does need work but I don't think it needs to be thrown out completely. I suffer in "ELO hell" 9 out of 10 matches, both good and bad. That 10th match will be a good game ending in a 10-12 or 11-12 match. Most of the time though ELO and Matchmaker gives a 2-12 or a 12-2 match. So IMO it works about 10% of the time.

What to do about it? Beats me I'm not a statistician but I do know the 6 terribad's 4 average 2 awesome player mix vs the 12 average mix, matchmaker seems to like so much really needs to go Buh-Bye.

[Joseph Mallan]

WonderSparks, on 29 May 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Some of us might not have been around long enough to remember that. It is kind of like asking someone my age what life was like back in the '60's.

To be fair most of us that were a live back in the 60s cannot remember much about it either. In my defense I was 3 in '69.

[Kristov Kerensky]

When I'm the guy that has to carry, there's a problem, especially if it's when I'm in a Light. When I get 6 straight drops where my side wins 12-0 and it's SOLO que, there's a problem. When I see 6 Trials on my side and not a single one of those 6 breaks 70 damage, there's a problem.

I'm average Elo, a little higher in my Lights, my wlr is only 1.02 so I should NOT be getting placed with brand new players on their first drop, nor should I be getting placed with the top players. I DO get placed with both, usually in the SAME drop, so the MM needs to go, it is not working as intended, unless that kind of disparity WAS the intention?

I don't know what to do about it, Elo isn't the way to match up teams of people, that's for damn sure, it was never designed or intended to do that and it's failed every time it's been used for that purpose. Hours of play maybe, since time in cockpit SHOULD be a much better indicator of skill than the wlr, especially for those who do lots of solo pug dropping. My aim is fine, my positioning and situational awareness, all fine, but I can't control the 11 other players on my team when they decide to just charge headfirst into an obvious killbox, so I get a loss on my record, which can change my Elo, for events totally beyond my control?

Time for PGI to find some other way to match players up, hours in the cockpit seems the best option to me. Yeah, you may still suck after spending 300hrs in a Mech, but at least you know which way is down!

[Johnny Z]

Awsome tutorial.

Warning that going against mechwarriors is tougher.

25 matches in newbie pool.

Warning that new mechwarrior is going up against the best mechs and mechwarriors in the galaxy and that they will have their ass handed to them until they get enough practice and have built a mech strong enough to hold its own.

Big pool.

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 May 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

I think the best part with all this, is how many in here seem to assume they have high Elos.

[SilentWolff]

FupDup, on 29 May 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

I found a logic contradiction. Here is your first sentence:




Now let's look at a later sentence:

So you complain about people having their hands held, then you complain about the MM wanting you to carry. If you practiced what you preached, you really wouldn't have any right to complain about having to carry. You would have to git gud and deal with it. Carry harder. You want Darwinism instead of a MatchMaker? This is exactly what it looks like.


Also, do keep in mind that removing the MM would more likely than not INCREASE the number of "bads" on your team, because they have the largest population of any demographic. Thus, you're more likely to encounter them if the game just picks the first random players that are available.

There is no contradiction.
The point of the post obviously went over your head.
The example I gave above was to point out just how broken the MM is. That's why I asked why it was ok for high ELO players in small groups to get rolled by comp teams, but it wasn't ok for that to happen to new players. What is the difference? Why is it ok to punish players that have skill, but to coddle new players or bads? Why is it ok for good players to have to wait 10 minutes for a game while the MM finds a way to stick it in their a$$?
Why as a high ELO player, do we feel like we are forced to take meta mechs every game or get beat like a drum?
Why aren't players treated equally regardless of their skill level? That's why the MM is a horrible joke that needs removed or at the very least, heavily tweaked.

[FupDup]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

There is no contradiction.
The point of the post obviously went over your head.
The example I gave above was to point out just how broken the MM is. That's why I asked why it was ok for high ELO players in small groups to get rolled by comp teams, but it wasn't ok for that to happen to new players. What is the difference? Why is it ok to punish players that have skill, but to coddle new players or bads? Why is it ok for good players to have to wait 10 minutes for a game while the MM finds a way to stick it in their a$$?
Why aren't players treated equally regardless of their skill level? That's why the MM is a horrible joke that needs removed or at the very least, heavily tweaked.

To reword my post from earlier, what I'm saying is that the argument "those folks just have to adapt/get better" would, by extension, put you in a position of having to also adapt yourself. That's the weakpoint in the armor of that viewpoint, and why I don't hold that view myself.


For the MM issues, one of my own suggestions would be to use a team's median Elo instead of average. The average, by nature, will get dragged up or down if a really high outlier or really low outlier is introduced into it. This leads to the infamous example of the "one good player on a team of bads." Medians, on the other hand, are resistant to outliers and thus won't spike up or down if a high or low Elo player was added to the team, keeping it a bit more consistent and leveled out.

I'm sure there are other things to do that I can't think of right now. Maybe loosen up weight class restrictions so that it can pluck in players of whatever Elo level without having to worry about having ideal team class compositions. There was also Russ' old idea about removing mode selection in favor of somewhat closer matchmaking, but that got shot down real fast.

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

Why as a high ELO player, do we feel like we are forced to take meta mechs every game or get beat like a drum?

This specific sentence here doesn't even deal with a MM issue. This is an issue with competitive gaming itself.

In a so-called "competitive" setting, people "play to win." People who play to win will typically use the best equipment/gear available, known as the "meta," to increase their chances of winning. So, if you face skilled opponents who are using the best stuff available, it would make sense that you would also have to use the best stuff available to improve your chances of defeating them.

It would help matters a lot if the power gaps between the best stuff and worst stuff wasn't so large, but that's a whole different discussion of its own...

Edited by FupDup, 29 May 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[AlexEss]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's right, I said it. This is a PvP game after all. You play to win and test your skill against your enemy, so why are we hand holding the bads that complain they can't compete?
I can see a separate queue for the first 25 games for your cadet bonus, but after that, the big boy pants need to be put on.
For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.
Why should I have to wait 10 minutes in the group queue to get a game?
Why should I have to be in a group of 6 or more to compete because the MM thinks I should be able carry the whole team while leveling a non elited, non meta mech?
Why does the MM pit groups of 2 and 3 high ELO players against 8, 10 or 12 man comp teams? And how is getting rolled by those group of comp teams any different than a new player getting rolled by veteran players?

So yeah, the MM needs to go.
/rant off

Why?

Utilitarianism most likely based on Jeremy Bentham

You are welcome.

[DAYLEET]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.
Why should I have to wait 10 minutes in the group queue to get a game?

Let me reassure you, everyone waits 10mins, good or bad.

[Harrison Kelly]

Matchmaker has made matches a lot better for me (and I'm probably just around the average player, maybe a LITTLE better). As for whether or not Elo is suitable for team games, there are a lot of games that use Elo-based systems and do quite well with it (League of Legends being the obvious and weighty example).

And even in games with enormous populations and people with thousands of games playing to gave MM a really good idea of how strong you are, you still get dumb posts about how broken matchmaking is. Why?

Because bad games happen and mismatches are more nuanced than just win/loss. Maybe you have an ace Firestarter pilot, but by bad luck, he wanders around the wrong corner and gets lit up by a dual Gauss 'Mech. Maybe you have a pilot who normally is a great LRM pilot, but this time, he's trying out a close-range wub build. And the more even the teams will be, the swingier games will be, because one slight thing can push one team to snowball a win.The point of matchmaker isn't to create epic 12-11 games every time. It's to match players of roughly equal skill against each other.

There will ALWAYS be one-sided games.

Also, I really hope that guy complaining about 2-3 minute queue times wasn't serious . . . that's nothing lol. Even 5 minutes isn't bad.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 29 May 2015 - 12:08 PM.

[Mystere]

Mister Blastman, on 29 May 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

I have a few. And a carry permit plus lots of ammo, too.

Joseph Mallan, on 29 May 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

I use swords. Not a lot of accidental discharge accidents with swords. Plus... Up close and personal you know.

Meh! I can bring these anywhere, and are functionally just as good as their Japanese counterparts, if you get my drift.

Mister Blastman, on 29 May 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Mmmm, swords. I like swords too. But I can't carry them around with me into stores and such without getting all sorts of looks (and perhaps violating laws).

But there's just something really sexy about a properly hand-made, folded steel Katana... (and expensive, too)

You just reminded me of a trip I took some time ago that spanned a few countries. In each of them, no one took a second look at the bokken I was hand-carrying ... well at least until I landed in Tokyo. Soon after exiting the plane, a trio of security personnel quickly approached me and politely asked if Japan was my final destination. When I said no, they inquired if they could package the bokken, hold on to it during my stay, and finally check it in for my flight out of the country. They were so nice about it i just had to agree.

It's a good thing they did not inquire about the pair of pens in my breast pocket.

Also, I wonder where Quentin Tarentino got the idea for this shot:



He might have been on one of my flights.

warner2, on 29 May 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

I remember the days of no MM, 4-man teams with no MM, and on top of that the whole synch-dropping thing.

Those day were brutal but extremely fun, especially for a solo player like myself.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 May 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

To be fair most of us that were a live back in the 60s cannot remember much about it either. In my defense I was 3 in '69.

Ah! 1969. What a year:

[Void Angel]

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

That's right, I said it. This is a PvP game after all. You play to win and test your skill against your enemy, so why are we hand holding the bads that complain they can't compete?
I can see a separate queue for the first 25 games for your cadet bonus, but after that, the big boy pants need to be put on.
For me, the biggest issue is you actually punish the higher ELO players.
Why should I have to wait 10 minutes in the group queue to get a game?
Why should I have to be in a group of 6 or more to compete because the MM thinks I should be able carry the whole team while leveling a non elited, non meta mech?
Why does the MM pit groups of 2 and 3 high ELO players against 8, 10 or 12 man comp teams? And how is getting rolled by those group of comp teams any different than a new player getting rolled by veteran players?

So yeah, the MM needs to go.
/rant off

SilentWolff, on 29 May 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

What a thorough, insightful and elegant explanation of your point of view, backed up by solid facts.
/sarcasm off

I'm tempted to let your own snarky comment (admittedly to a rude poster) stand in opposition to your own post, but on the off chance that you might mislead the ignorant, I'll point out a few things.

First, people who say "bads" often are. Having such a hostile attitude isn't common amongst the truly top-tier players I know, and referring to players with a slur instead of treating them with respect regardless of their skill is a major hit to your ethos. If you really want to convince people that we should go back to random matches

Then there's your odd lack of self-awareness. You don't seem to realize that none of your criticisms (leaving aside the errors, fallacies, and subjective claims) actually support your thesis. All you can get out of any of your assertions is that the matchmaker could be better, and that you would like it to be so - nothing you've said logically leads to scrapping the matchmaker so that the game doesn't even try to prevent you from being the only "high-Elo" player on a team of "bads."

Complaining about the matchmaker doing things we'd rather it not do may be reasonable - whining about its existence is asinine.

[Sarlic]

It all starts when you hit that big beautiful blue button on your top right corner.



Honestly: Why can in this game nobody work together in solo que?

Your team looks probaly like this: (Yes i made this graphic, mind you?)



Clearly ELO is just a underlying problem. Clearly the introduction of VOIP is a underlying problem (Quality has been since the last patch improved).

You have all the tools. Seriously i can safetly say: you guys are bad working together. Big time. 12 man and no teamwork is a instant auto loss.

It's the players who are not willing to work together in this game when they are thrown in a pool of 12 man.

Small summary: (based on so many factors, i cant name them all but most common are:) (=Sarcastic)

• Nascar (We all like to race to each other)
  
• Leaving Assaults behind (Just because you are fater and totally indepedence, right?)
  
• Splitting up like a piece of glas smashed on the table (Oh, we're all specialists here, we need to split up in order to solo anyone)
  
• Blocking and jumping in front of other people (I need that kill for my tournament, man and you don't deserve it in any way)
  
• Cowardice (Yo, i am saving up my KDR, yo)
  
• Blatantly ignoring call locations and or movement. (I don't follow anyone, i like to play with myself in the dark with my stick)
  
• There's alot more to be named.

I have been long enough here to know what's all about and this is the only game which i get bad experiences with. 8 vs 8 was back in the days a far much better choice. Even in the minority you could still outmatch the other team. Teamwork was more common, people got more on TS, pilots actually doing something trying to make it work.


It's gets very dull and boring when practically 8 out of the 10 matches are no close games, and the 2 later are somewhat to very close games.

This week was very painful to play. As of today you can actually predict in some cases wheter you going to lose a match or not. Not blaming anyone or teams here, i try to work with others but most of the time there is ni magic happening.

It could been worse you think? Let me help you: it is going to be worse! I do not see a solution in sight. But with Steam release on it's way we will likely see more bad new player experience and more 'greenies' to the team. Greenies are not bad, they just need a oppertunity to learn the game..which this game does not have. A hard learning curve.
But when you and other have to carry teams it's no fun anymore but rather boring and wasting my time in the first place.

Please, just work together. The team have all the tools they need to work together, yet they don't.
When i see a bad match my eyes is going to water and a grey hair will grow on my head. Painful to watch one by one getting slaughered.

I am so tired of screwing around with teams who refuse to do some teamwork. All i fight here is the small teamwork i see here, and that my friends; is uncommon.

Reward system could be improved. Then again; it's a underlying problem.

So enlighten me: For a AAA game you expect to have fun. Instead you get thrown in a pool of full randomness and are put up with another 11 tryhards who rocketeer their own way in each direction. Correct?

Edited by Sarlic, 29 May 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[DONTOR]

Mister Blastman, on 29 May 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

I have a few. And a carry permit plus lots of ammo, too.

Now your name makes sense!

[Void Angel]

It's a beautiful graphic - well done.

And you're right about the lack of teamwork being the main problem. Very few times do you simply get out-shot by the enemy team, without some kind of tactical/teamwork failure on your side of the match. There are a couple of reasons for the teamwork problems you're seeing.

First, and most importantly, the game trains players to be that way. It has to do with classical conditioning - like Pavlov's dog, I kid you not. People learn by comparing their actions with the results, good and bad (rewards and punishments.) The game punishes and rewards long-range combat immediately, while immediately punishing players who screw up trying to get close to the enemy. However, it defers the rewards for fighting close-in (increasingly as your range decreases) - and since brawling often requires team support, you may get no rewards entirely for closing in, if your team isn't willing to fight along side you.

This situation leads us to the Hillbilly Moonshiner school of Battlemech combat we so often see in PuGs (and in organized teams if we're not careful.) Two clans of moonshiners have gotten into a fracas; things are out of hand, but nobody really wants to get shot over it yet - so they scatter out to their favorite rocks and start sampling the product while exchanging desultory gunfire. After a while, either one side or t'other gets lucky, or people have imbibed enough liquid courage to get frolicksome, and people start leaving their rocks to go finish the fight. This is what you're seeing with people all scattering out to the winds: they've learned that their team won't help them, so they just find their favorite sniper perch and try to maximize their individual damage.

Finally, many people assume that a close match is one with many 'mechs on both sides dead - this is simply incorrect. It can happen that way, but a close match can also end with only a few 'mechs dead on the opposing team, for a number of reasons. First, there's the First Mistake principle. The first guy to screw up in a close match can be killed or crippled without a corresponding amount of damage done to the enemy. This leaves you with a weakened or destroyed teammate, and gives you a marked disadvantage, especially if that teammate was also piloting an Assault. This in turn leads to Cumulative Fire Superiority: when your team is up in kills, it can put more firepower onto the enemy, killing them faster than they kill you, and getting you even farther ahead. There's also 'mech rotation, where damaged teammates hang back so that less-damaged 'mechs can take the brunt of return fire - this hurts the side with more 'mechs much less than the losing team, obviously. All these things can make a match with evenly matched players snowball into a lopsided final score - arguably more so with better players, since they focus fire and cooperate more effectively.

PS: You are using the slur, "tryhards" incorrectly here. "Tryhards" is what people who don't want to communicate or cooperate call those who are annoyed with them for ruining the match, or who tell them that no, their 1ML/TAG ASRM45 Atlas D-DC is in no way a good 'mech.

[Exoth3rmic]

Pretty sure they could turn off any matchmaking and you wouldn't even notice.

The number of threads on this matter would still be the same; the content of the threads the same.

And the player-base? The player base would be the same.

[CDLord HHGD]

One one hand I like playing within my skill level +/- whatever.

On the other, the current MM tries to balance the equation so it seems like higher elo (no idea where I am at but I am no slouch) players get to also play the "carry harder" mini-game.

[SilentWolff]

FupDup, on 29 May 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

To reword my post from earlier, what I'm saying is that the argument "those folks just have to adapt/get better" would, by extension, put you in a position of having to also adapt yourself. That's the weakpoint in the armor of that viewpoint, and why I don't hold that view myself.

This specific sentence here doesn't even deal with a MM issue. This is an issue with competitive gaming itself.

In a so-called "competitive" setting, people "play to win." People who play to win will typically use the best equipment/gear available, known as the "meta," to increase their chances of winning. So, if you face skilled opponents who are using the best stuff available, it would make sense that you would also have to use the best stuff available to improve your chances of defeating them.

It would help matters a lot if the power gaps between the best stuff and worst stuff wasn't so large, but that's a whole different discussion of its own...

I'm not saying people have to adapt or get better. That isnt the point. The point is this is a 100% PvP game and being such, all players should be on an equal footing imo. And just like in real life, some people are going to excel and some are going to sink to the bottom. That's just the way it is.

While I agree with your point about the power creep, I totally disagree that it isnt MM issue. Sure people want to play the best loadout, or the best mech or mechs at the current time. But what would be nice is to be able to drop into a game with a lulz build and not have to worry that 9 times out of 10 it will be futile because of who the MM will pit you against. If everyone is on an equal footing, then taking a lulz build would be a hell of a lot less punishing to the person taking it and they might actually have a bit of fun, which is the whole point isnt it?

[SilentWolff]

Void Angel, on 29 May 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

I'm tempted to let your own snarky comment (admittedly to a rude poster) stand in opposition to your own post, but on the off chance that you might mislead the ignorant, I'll point out a few things.

First, people who say "bads" often are. Having such a hostile attitude isn't common amongst the truly top-tier players I know, and referring to players with a slur instead of treating them with respect regardless of their skill is a major hit to your ethos. If you really want to convince people that we should go back to random matches

Then there's your odd lack of self-awareness. You don't seem to realize that none of your criticisms (leaving aside the errors, fallacies, and subjective claims) actually support your thesis. All you can get out of any of your assertions is that the matchmaker could be better, and that you would like it to be so - nothing you've said logically leads to scrapping the matchmaker so that the game doesn't even try to prevent you from being the only "high-Elo" player on a team of "bads."

Complaining about the matchmaker doing things we'd rather it not do may be reasonable - whining about its existence is asinine.

The fact I've never seen you in game means your obviously not a higher ELO and really dont know or understand how the MM works at higher ELO's. People in higher ELO's are punished for it, period. Thats a fact whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
For the record I do just fine in the higher ELO bracket and I enjoy the challenge. What I dont enjoy is being pigeon holed into one playstyle because other playstyles arent as effective, even if they are more fun to play.