64 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Since the death of the Poptarts, mainly due to HoverJets™, PPC nerfs have yet to be revised.

As a long range weapon, I find it odd they can't be used effectively at their "optimal" range, yet also share the same cooldown as many brawling weapons (4s). Seems out of place.


The only recently very useful PPC (being high mounted and exceedingly cool) was the 9S super buff, with half heat (7.5) ERPPCs, and small velocity buffs. This made them cooler than the height of the PPC meta; where normal PPCs were 8 heat and ERPPCs at 12(?).
So, the coolest PPCs that had ever existed in MWO, with brawling level cooldowns.

A pretty bad idea.

I don't suggest touching heat all that much; that limits them fairly now, but I do suggest making them worth using at that heat level.

I'm not sure if the sledgehammer approach is a good idea...but it's the only thing PGI has ever done, do I guess it'll work.
Bump the velocity on the normal PPC to 1800M/s, and a 5s cooldown. Same 10 heat.
Less than its highest rate (2KM/s), but very useful.
That scaling min range would be nice, but not a deal breaker. Linear or exponential/ramping.
Don't believe it syncs up with anything either, to prevent unintended consequences. Just Gauss+AC2 at 2Km/s and AC5s at 1150. I guess 1500 could also be done, one of their pre-nerf points.

Quirks may cause those unintended consequences...but sod it, I don't care about a Vindicator or Awesome meta. Let them have their fun.


isERPPC? Now, heat adjustment is an option here, and let's even use the rare iterative option: 14 heat.
Now let's use the sledgehammer again: 3Km/h velocity.
Yep, over double. Make it EFFECTIVE in its effective range bracket.
As a result, increase the cooldown. 5.5s as a starting point, iterate things from there.

It can hit, it can hurt, but between heat and cooldown, it shouldn't be able to keep it up. Ideally. I haven't thought it through.


cERPPC? Keep the damage spread and 15 heat. Give it the longest cooldown, up to 6-7 seconds, and a velocity to the tune of 2500M/s.
This one is probably the riskiest, as the GodTier robots have nice high mounts, and then there's the poptart Nova. Whale will be potent, but still far less damage potential than laservomit. At what point would PP FLD out-weigh overwhelming damage output? I have no idea.
Perhaps someone could chime in with what would happen. PPCs replacing LPLs?


For the isGauss, there are a couple options. Decrease exploding potential, decrease exploding damage, or likelihood.

Those are simple things, easy to adjust and iterate. Then there are other options, like turning the IS CASE into CASE II, which vents ammo explosions and Gauss damage through the rear armour, dealing a single point of damage to the Structure VS 20-200.
Not a bad thing to have, helps XL engined mechs with Gauss as well. Likely still won't be taken on ammo mechs, because ammo explosions are so rare. Gauss has the 90% likelihood, and might be worth a half ton to survive.


You could also touch variables. Make have a higher velocity than cGauss? Small but not insignificant buff (2Km/s is already very fast).
Cooldowns? Meh, not much there. Increase the cGauss? Doesn't affect the alpha.

Mechanic change? Don't let more than a single Gauss fire at once, but no charge? Quite a blow to Dual Gauss mechs, but can help single mounts. If it's on the half second wait, you can fire at either end of a laser burn, so still plenty powerful and useful, just noticeably worse than 30 PP FLD. Putting the cooldown to 5s is really only a quarter second nerf at worst, because of the 0.75 charge (up to 1.5s).

In that scenario, isGauss 5s, cGauss 6s cooldown, as an example. Still, people like their Dual Gauss and that does risk invalidating the AC20 again. You can do things without significant mechanic changes.
I'm not set on any particular adjustment, just throwing ideas around.


3 tons and 1 crit slot is the difference between the IS and Clam Gauss, perhaps someone could pinpoint what that difference can be bridged with.




TL:DR

• Buff PPCs with velocity, nerf cooldown. Make them suited to mid-long range combat, and good at those situations.
  
• Adjust the Gauss or supporting items/mechanics to bridge the 3 ton 1 slot gap for the IS VS Clam Gauss (functionally identical presently).

Well, that really wasn't much content. Flame, suggest, discuss or whine.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 September 2015 - 12:10 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I'd support the buffs you're proposing for IS Gauss, but at the same time both the IS and C variants need longer cooldowns.
Like an extra second, or second and a half IMO

[Cyborne Elemental]

Velocity kills PPC use.
OverQuirked lasers also kills PPC use.

With clanners running as fast as they do, PPC fire is just too easily dodged for how hot they are to run.
Its just not worth the effort to use them as they currently are.

As far as AC-20, it needs that ridiculous Ghost heat gone for duals, let brawlers brawl.

There is no excuse for keeping AC-20 like that, you let dual Gauss do 30 ppfld easy button from across the map, but not AC-20 at near point blank ranges.. ugh. UAC-20.. maybe, but its still ******** to have ghost heat on a close range brawl weapon like that.

Edited by Mister D, 25 September 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[Lugh]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 September 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'd support the buffs you're proposing for IS Gauss, but at the same time both the IS and C variants need longer cooldowns.
Like an extra second, or second and a half IMO

I'd gladly accept 2 seconds longer cool down if you remove the stupid charge mechanic.

[Khobai]

TTK doesnt need to be lowered even more. Which is exactly what would happen if frontloaded pinpoint weapons were significantly buffed.

PPCs would become a huge problem again if you increased their projectile speed. Because PPC/Gauss could be combod together again due to having similar projectile speeds. The whole reason PPC projectile speed was lowered in the first place was to prevent that unholy pairing.

The only way pairing PPC/Gauss could remain balanced is if you implemented some type of damage spreading mechanic like making ALL PPCs and Gauss do ~33% splash damage like the CERPPC does. That would prevent frontloaded pinpoint damage from reaching the same broken levels it was at previously.

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As far as AC-20, it needs that ridiculous Ghost heat gone for duals, let brawlers brawl.

Again, same problem... you cant allow high frontloaded pinpoint damage because it completely breaks the current armor system. Thats why the massive heat penalty on AC/20s exists.

The only way dual AC/20s would be balanced without a massive heat penalty is if AC/20s were burst fire weapons like clan autocannons because that would spread the damage across multiple hit locations.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

TTK doesnt need to be lowered even more. Which is exactly what would happen if pinpoint weapons were used more.

PPCs would become a huge problem again if you increased their projectile speed. Because PPC/Gauss could be combod together again due to having similar projectile speeds. The whole reason PPC projectile speed was lowered in the first place was to prevent that unholy pairing.

The only way pairing PPC/Gauss could remain balanced is if you made ALL PPCs and Gauss do ~33% splash damage like the CERPPC does. That would prevent pinpoint damage from reaching the same broken levels it was at previously.

Sorry I don't buy it, my mechs can take more 35 point alphas than 50-60 damage alphas. 33% splash damage would make them go unused again, back to laser vomit. Yeah PPFLD vs DoT, but frankly the 35-40% reduction in damage balances out the benefit of PPFLD, and even at 1500 m/s, ppcs and Gauss would not sync perfectly at range on moderately fast moving targets.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

TTK doesnt need to be lowered even more. Which is exactly what would happen if pinpoint weapons were used more.

PPCs would become a huge problem again if you increased their projectile speed. Because PPC/Gauss could be combod together again due to having similar projectile speeds. The whole reason PPC projectile speed was lowered in the first place was to prevent that unholy pairing.

The only way pairing PPC/Gauss could remain balanced is if you made ALL PPCs and Gauss do ~33% splash damage like the CERPPC does. That would prevent pinpoint damage from reaching the same broken levels it was at previously.

Current stats are roughly 800M/s apart (quirks and stuff for some)

Proposed stats are 500M/s apart for Clams, and the IS PPC could use the love.


Current stats are nearly identical for PPCs and AC5s, less than a hundred. If anything, this is spreading the damage more.


20 damage is less than 50 LOLpha damage that's being throw about, even with that PP FLD advantage, is it really worth less than half?


With HoverJets, you won't get many poptarts again. Vindicator and Nova? Not exactly gigantic threats.


Whale has the choice for 50 PP FLD or 80+laser alphas (both consisting of Dual Gauss). It is an exceptional chassis, of course.

[FupDup]

I agree with PPC velocities, but I think your values are in the crazyballs range. For example, 3000 m/s is just pure overkill, even the original 2000 m/s was almost hitscan. I would go with approximately 1300-1400 on IS PPCs, 1600-1700 on IS ERPPCs, and then figure out some kind of way to make Clam ERPPCs more unique.

For that Clam ERPPC, some ideas I've tossed around were to either:
A. Let it deal the full 15 PPFLD, but at a slightly lower velocity than now
B. Jack it up to 2000 m/s or perhaps even higher, but reduce the direct damage a bit and increase the spread/splash


For Goose Waffles, I think that both factions should get a modest cooldown nerf, and then improve the IS Goose durability to sorta counteract it (Clam Goose gets nothing in exchange, it's way lighter).

Both Goose: Increase explosion rate to 100% (from 90%)
Both Goose: Increase base cooldown time to 5.0 seconds (from 4.0)
IS Goose: Increase health to about 7.5 or so (from 5.0)
IS Goose: Reduce explosion damage to 15 (from 20)

Edited by FupDup, 25 September 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Evan20k]

So many knee-jerk reactions to the poptart meta that existed in a meta with so many less variables than the one we have now.

EDIT: also make the terrain-collision box for PPCs significantly smaller.

Edited by Evan20k, 25 September 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I'm on board with the proposal.

[Nori Silverrage]

If you nerf cooldown then you need to reduce heat too otherwise this is a overall nerf.
I love PPCs, but outside of a couple of mechs they aren't really that viable. And it isn't the velocity or difficulty of hitting targets. It's the fact that they have terrible damage per heat. Each missed shot is devestating because that is 10 to 30 heat wasted.

Also, PPCs usually are only good in pairs and it is rare that you will see only one used. The exceptions are in a Gauss/PPC build.

I would like to see velocity stay where it is at and just reduce the heat while removing all PPC related quirks. Maybe give IS slightly higher velocity to compensate for their lowered dissipation.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 25 September 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[Khobai]

The ramifications of PPC/Gauss builds making a comeback still havent been fully addressed.

How do you prevent those builds from dominating the meta again? At least laser builds require more face time and spread the damage more due to beam duration. FLPPD builds require minimal face time and apply all the damage instantly to a single location.

You would be significantly reducing TTK by bringing that kindve frontloaded pinpoint damage back to the game. I do not believe that is the direction we want the game to go in.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 25 September 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I agree with PPC velocities, but I think your values are in the crazyballs range. For example, 3000 m/s is just pure overkill, even the original 2000 m/s was almost hitscan. I would go with approximately 1300-1400 on IS PPCs, 1600-1700 on IS ERPPCs, and then figure out some kind of way to make Clam ERPPCs more unique.

For that Clam ERPPC, some ideas I've tossed around were to either:
A. Let it deal the full 15 PPFLD, but at a slightly lower velocity than now
B. Jack it up to 2000 m/s or perhaps even higher, but reduce the direct damage a bit and increase the spread/splash

I agree, excessive, but that's the only type of change PGI seems to do.

I wanted to avoid syncing with Gauss (isPPC at 1800 is very close, but it has its own downsides). Maybe accurate 1KM shots are too much, but I'd like them to be worthwhile systems.


Honestly, I don't want the cERPPC do deal 15 PP FLD, nor do I want more useless damage. We've got lasers for that.

And don't you think the isERPPC needs something worthwhile to keep it afloat? The LPL deals more damage for the same tonnage. Clam and IS. 3KM/s prevents Gauss sync, but keeps it VERY effective at long range. Heat prevents sustained use up close (hard to get 20 DHS on is mechs), and the cooldown is nearly half again what is presently is.


With current mechanics, even an 8 second cooldown 15 PP FLD cERPPC would be too much, with the Whale being what is it. Then you've got heavies with 45 PP FLD strikes.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 September 2015 - 11:27 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

The ramifications of PPC/Gauss builds making a comeback still havent been fully addressed.

How do you prevent those builds from dominating the meta again? At least laser builds require more face time and spread the damage more due to beam duration. FLPPD builds require minimal face time and apply all the damage instantly to a single location.

You would be significantly reducing TTK by bringing that kindve frontloaded pinpoint damage back to the game. I do not believe that is the direction we want the game to go in.

Reducing TTK, by reducing damage numbers? That's not really how it works. For good shots, perhaps, but that is rare.


Increase the cooldown to the point where they can't out-brawl you. That was one of the prime issues (along with JJs), with multiple terrible weapon systems. Now, we're still at the multiple terrible weapon system point, but now PPCs belong in that group.


You don't let the weapon groups sync up. isPPCs? Give it a shot. Drop it down to 1500M/s if its too much. Lasers are still easier to use, being completely hitscan, on moving targets.

[Khobai]

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And don't you think the isERPPC needs something worthwhile to keep it afloat? The LPL deals more damage for the same tonnage.

The LPL should do more damage. It has considerably less range than the ERPPC. Shorter range weapons should do more damage than longer range weapons. That is a core balancing principle for pretty much all games.

Another core balancing principle for MWO should be that ballistic/missile weapons should be better than energy weapons ton for ton because of their ammo limitations. Energy weapons like PPCs should feel a bit on the weak side compared to an AC/10 because they have the massive advantage of not using ammo.

MWO violates BOTH of those fundamental balance principles which is why weapon balance is so bad right now.

Quote

Reducing TTK, by reducing damage numbers? That's not really how it works.

Reducing damage will always increase TTK. But increasing cooldown doesnt necessarily reduce damage. Because increasing cooldown fails to account for the fact that there are many mechs on a team that can all focus fire the same target. The game is not just 1v1.

Quote

Increase the cooldown to the point where they can't out-brawl you

Increased cooldown wont help. Even with increased cooldown its possible to cripple or destroy most other mechs with only two or three alphas (very easy with 12 players on a team that can focus fire). The problem is the sheer amount of damage hitting a single location. It doesnt take very much damage to blow off a side torso in this game, and losing a side torso means losing a good portion of your combat effectiveness for most mechs.

Again the last thing we need is massive alphas of 30-40 pinpoint damage getting tossed around. We tried that before and it didnt work. Its time to move onto something different.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

This is a five minute .XML change. Make it so!

(and bump up AC/5 and UAC/5 velocity while you're at it >)

Hell, I wouldn't mind ghost heat being revised (since someone won't get rid of it) to allow triple PPCs fired without penalty. (looks suspiciously at a CTF 3D)

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 25 September 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

The LPL should do more damage. It has considerably less range than the ERPPC.

Shorter range weapons should do more damage than longer range weapons. That is a core balancing principle for pretty much all games.



Of course reducing damage reduces TTK. Thats exactly how it works.



Increased cooldown wont help. Even with increased cooldown its possible to cripple or destroy most other mechs with only two or three alphas. The problem is the sheer amount of damage hitting a single location. It doesnt take very much damage to blow off a side torso in this game, and losing a side torso means losing a good portion of your combat effectiveness for most mechs.

The last thing we need is mechs getting side torsos blown off even faster. It happens fast enough already.

And some do. That's the issue with SRMs right now, they do not.


Also, break down that acronym: Time To Kill.

You want to die faster, you have a lower Time To Kill.
You want to die slower, you have a longer Time To Kill. Less damage means you live longer, meaning a higher TTK.

If you can fire twice in the same span the other guy can fire once, you'll probably win.

[Lightfoot]

No.

PPC's and ERPPC's (both factions) are fine, maybe a little slow, but I am not going to worry about it. The high heat balances out the range. At least for MWO which has fragile mechs and fast recharge. Mechs are really limited to 2x if not quirked for 3x due to the heat and that balances with other projectile weapons which are cool.

The Gauss Rifle needs a longer cool down and drop the charge-up. Maybe replace the charge-up with a block to firing 2x Gauss at once since this would discourage boating Gauss better than the charge-up and is more in line with canon attributes. Gauss just needs a 5-5.5 second cool down to be balanced for long range. It will always be a long range favorite.

What you want when balancing the Clans and Inner Sphere is for the weapons to be as similar as possible and the PPC vs the CERPPC is balanced with the PPC doing all point damage and the CERPPC getting spread damage and 5 more heat.

And the Gauss is identical except for the tonnage, but the Clan mechs have such large engines they have lower payloads than Inner Sphere can run so for most of them 2x gauss is impossible already or maxes out the payload. Only the DWF can boat anything. In fact all the other Clan assaults are washouts except the Warhawk's energy abilities.

So the game should not be balanced for the Dire Wolf and I think that is where this is coming from.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I think a smart change to Gauss would be to just stop the bleedover from explosions.

Let it blow, and take the section it is in with it, but either allow CASE to block transfer, or stop the explosion transfer completely by default with or without CASE.

That is the biggest disadvantage IS gets with their Gauss, because even if you put it in your arm it still transfers a massive amount of damage.

IS mechs can't put CASE in that arm to stop the transfer, you get screwed over by the explosion where Clan mechs do not get any transfer at all thanks to full body CASE.

[Davegt27]

The game is like an un-calibrated Volt meter

All the weapons work differently on whatever Mech and there constant nerfing and buffing makes any changes pretty iffy

Picture trying to send a man to the moon without a navigation computer

Problems with PPC/ERPPC
1) The animation of lightning bolts makes it hard to hit anything
Look at the stats

They use tracer rounds in real life to help the shooter get on target (Vietnam era helicopter door gunners used all tracer rounds so they could get and stay on target)

2) The heat--the crazy heat that ERPPC have make them a joke weapon (since you can carry LPL with more power and less heat)

I recommend normalizing weapons (by class at least if a BJ get a PPC boost so does a Clan Medium)

Next PPC/ERPPC are supposed to be the ultimate 31 century energy weapon damage needs to go up
But at very high heat penalty


Next change the animation of the PPC/ERPPC I like MW2 style but add a contrail instead of the lightning bolts


Next two modes single shot or 3 shot burst (the 3 shot burst at reduced power level)
This is mostly for the coolness factor and not designed to make the weapon OP

It would also help to get on target

Next tweak hard point system to prevent and or reduce boating

They have a basic concept of hard points but there is more

All jet fighters have hard points but they can’t carry any weapon on all hard points
For example you might want to carry some 2000lb bombs but you can only carry them on
2 hard points (this is both logical and practical)

A 12 ton PPC can only be carried on certain hard points (like AMS)

Sorry for the poor writing