73 replies to this topic

[Night Thastus]

Hello all!

As a player since closed beta, and a long-time 'Mechwarrior fan, I've got to say my part on heat.

I'm throwing my hat into the ring after seeing the topic about heat scale ideas here:

http://mwomercs.com/...at-scale-ideas/

I'm going to keep posting about the heat scale, even though I have before, until something changes. The current state of heat in MechWarrior Online is simply not sustainable.

My idea is simple enough, and should eliminate the major issues with the current system.

1: Remove ghost heat. This mechanic is: Arbitrary as to what weapons generate what heat, confusing to new players, stagnant and unchanging with the meta (most of the time) and illogical.

2: Double Heatsinks now all have 2.0 dissipation but NO heat capacity. Currently, with only 1.4x dissipation for double heatsinks, lights get the short end of the stick if they can't mount a 250 rating engine or greater. If we need to pay 1.5 million flat-out for this, it should be worth it.

3: Single heatsinks now have 1.0 dissipation but HIGH heat capacity. This gives singles a niche. They allow for higher alphas, but slower re-fire rates. Gives singles a purpose.

3: Drop the heat capacity of all 'Mechs to 30 (currently at 60). As well, heatsinks would no longer add to this value, as they do now. This helps counter the previous changes, making boating a huge collection of energy weaponry much more difficult.

These changes promote:

1: Mixed weaponry, some high-heat, some lower heat. Ballistics, which generate more continuous heat, benefit from the increased dissipation, while laser-vomit suffers due to lower alpha-striking capability.

2: Increased TTK. Alpha-strikes get lowered in general. I understand, it's nice to have a 60+ alpha. However, this knocks TTK down significantly when a 'Mech is hit with a blast so large it dies near instantly. This means longer, more intense fights, with less insta-kills and more constant fighting rather than alpha-striking, hiding, waiting a while to cool off, then repeating.

3: Balance between IS and Clan. People constantly complain one way or the other about IS and clan balance, but this heat system really puts each one in their place. With Ultra-Autocannons, more weapons in general, ER lasers and more, clan 'Mechs run hotter. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Want to run a 2x LPL + 4x ER Medium Timber? That's 44 heat there on an alpha-strike. Not going to happen man. Guess mixed builds will be the new "meta".

The much cooler-running IS 'Mechs will have a leg up in that respect, helping to balance the two. It's not perfect, but it's clear it helps the IS, even if the clans have smaller double heatsinks.

OPTIONAL EXTRAS (TESTING REQUIRED, MAY BENEFIT BALANCE, MAY NOT, BE WARNED):

The above changes would go some way to fixing the heat system, but they can't fit everything. More changes are required to fully "fix" what I believe is broken with this game.

1: Jump-Jets become as powerful as they are in the lore. Right now, they're roughly 20% as powerful as they were in the lore. However, to balance this, they would generate significantly more heat, and the initial thrust would be quite powerful, so much so that JJ spamming (like on the Timberwolf) becomes impossible, you'll be flying up with a huge kick, rather than hovering.

This makes all 'Mechs with JJ's suddenly have a huge boost to mobility, as it should. However, falling damage and heat will keep this from being overly advantageous.

Pop-tarting you say? Well, here's the deal. With the heat cap dropped to 30, and increased heat with JJ's, pop-tarting with PPC's will be impossible. Due to the high speed you'll be going, even IS short-duration lasers aren't worth it. Gauss perhaps, but it won't be powerful enough to be any kind of issue.

Now that 2-ton investment per JJ on assaults is actually worth it. Whod've thought?

2: Make heat dissipate faster at higher temperatures. This is both scientifically accurate and allows 'Mechs to "Run hot" to an extent. Not much else to say, a very possible change.

3: Add penalties for running hot. Many people have suggested this, and I generally disagree with most (A chance of shut-down at 5%? What the heck man?), but some have the right idea.

As you go up in heat, top speed and maneuverability (arm actuation, torso twisting, etc) go down, while chance of ammo explosion goes up. As well as other things, such as malfunctioning electronics (ECM, BAP, your HUD, etc). All of these would need a lot of tweaking to get right. It would be a massive under-taking within itself. With the lower heat cap, I'm not sure it's necessary. If the heat cap isn't changed, however, this may be very viable/useful.

3: Laser weaponry doesn't get 2x max-range. Currently, lasers and ballistics do damage outside of their "ideal" range. While this is more realistic, it is a poor implementation. The problem is that most ballistics are are hard to hit anything with inside their ideal range, let alone out-side of it. This means that ballistics get literally nothing from this increased range. However, lasers, which are hit-scan and pinpoint (I'd discuss convergence somewhere else) take full advantage, which is yet another reason the laser-vomit meta is king right now.

I'll add more if I've forgotten anything, but I believe that is all.

Thank you all for reading this far! I hope you take the time to think it over and offer your thoughts.

If you think it's wrong, tell me why these changes would be bad. If you think they're good, tell me why you think these are good changes.

Thanks!

EDIT: Remove 2 vulgarities (they were censored anyways), fixed a few spelling/grammar issues, cleared up a few thoughts, and added the third optional change.

Edited by Night Thastus, 27 October 2015 - 04:18 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Not a single reply? Shameless bump. I know that the heat system has been talked over again and again, with countless "good" and "bad" ideas presented, but I'd like to get a feel for what community thinks right now.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, I've been posting about the Heat System for quite a while.

One thing is that we start with 30 + Heat Sinks, then 2xHeat Containment. I'd reduce that value to 14 + HS and no Heat Containment or have Heat Containment boost Dissipation instead.

That brings SHS to 0.135 and DHS to 0.27 in engine and external DHS to 0.189

[Rushmoar]

I would like then to drop the heat pool as well. This would cut the need for ghost heat on practically all weapons. Having double heat sinks cool off fast would make sence as well.

I think this would all so promote brawling and mix builds. So now intsead of seeing 7 medium pulse on a Thunderbolt. You could see 3 or 4 medium pulse and the rest of the hardpoints be small pulse. I know some mech only have energy hard point but instead of the Black Knight running 8 medium lasers like the [R] variant. It would be better for it to run 4 medium and 4 small lasers or just 6 medium lasers to run more efficiently.

[gloowa]

This was suggested years ago. Not going to happen becasuse reasons.

[Karl Streiger]

What about the Gauss? Bringing a Machine Gun into a medieval battle?
Or can we correct the mistake now?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 October 2015 - 04:16 AM.

[Nesutizale]

From someone who is just started playing again...is it just my imagination or are all the other results of the heattable gone?
Like you are getting slower, targeting gets harder and so on when you heat up.
Now it feels like an on/off kinda way. You are either shut down or you ride the red line without consequenzes.

I could imagne that haveing more drawbacks on the heat table could get people to use less heat intensive weapons like AC or Missiles.
Also an Alpha would become risky as you can't just fire, ride the red line and withdraw till you are cool enough. Now you would be very slow and vision could get blured (for example)

[Karl Streiger]

Nesutizale, on 15 October 2015 - 04:40 AM, said:

From someone who is just started playing again...is it just my imagination or are all the other results of the heattable gone?
Like you are getting slower, targeting gets harder and so on when you heat up.
Now it feels like an on/off kinda way. You are either shut down or you ride the red line without consequenzes.

There were "real" heat penalties in MWO? I did start playing in August 2013.... although i had once the feeling that my overheated 85kph Catapult was running slower as an Atlas i didn't had prove.

[Apathy Enrage]

+1 to OP, I think these would make excellent changes!!!

[Khobai]

the problem with ideas like this is theyre not particularly well thought out

gauss is already overpowered now. what do you thinks gonna happen when you make the heatscale more punitive? dual gauss builds would run around totally unpenalized, while anyone not using dual gauss is forced to suffer awful speed/targeting/whatever penalties. so why would players not use dual gauss at that point?

essentially youd usher in a whole new dual gauss meta, where any mech that isnt running dual gauss is completely obsolete.


not only that but redoing the heatscale still doesnt solve the actual problem with weapon balance which is convergence. because youd still have dual gauss rifles, plus whatever other weapons can be fire simultaneously without incurring heat penalties, converging on a single hit location.

you wanna fix weapon balance for realsies? fix convergence. simple as that.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2015 - 06:24 AM.

[Nesutizale]

The Gauss may be very heat efficient but its also a heavy, bulky weapon that explodes quite nicely if destroyed.
It's ammo per ton isn't the best balance.

So while it might be valid to run with two or three gauss rifles it limits you in tactical options to direct fire. LRMs can easly counter an gauss build with indirect fire.

On the other side you can build lots of different configurations that are not depended on the gauss and still work well...its just that the so loved "I shoot my laser" mechs aren't valid anymore....and that is more of a problem for most people as it seams.
The have do use mixed weapons loadouts.

[Kyynele]

Nesutizale, on 15 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

LRMs can easly counter an gauss build with indirect fire.

What.

[Nesutizale]

He can't hit what he can not see...an LRM can. That is if anyone bothers to look on to the gauss mech.

[Kyynele]

Nesutizale, on 15 October 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

He can't hit what he can not see...an LRM can. That is if anyone bothers to look on to the gauss mech.

That's kind of the problem of that scenario. Someone has to be taking that gauss to the face, so that the LRM mech can lob the indirect LRMs on the gauss guy. That gauss is going to hurt someone badly, and when they either die or retreat out of sight, the gauss mech can still completely avoid all the LRMs that are in the air, thanks to everyone having radar derp.

[Khobai]

Quote

The Gauss may be very heat efficient but its also a heavy, bulky weapon that explodes quite nicely if destroyed.

Except clan gauss is only 12 tons and 6 crits. So its really not all that heavy or bulky. Clan mechs also get built-in CASE to help mitigate the explosion damage. Not to mention CXL is less susceptible to being destroyed by gauss explosions.

Quote

So while it might be valid to run with two or three gauss rifles it limits you in tactical options to direct fire. LRMs can easly counter an gauss build with indirect fire.

You still need a spotter, spotter gets hit by gauss, no more spotter. And then theres Radar deprivation. You cant LRM what you cant see. And ECM will still help vs LRMs by making their lock-on times pretty ridiculous. Even if you can see me and get a lock ill just move behind cover and your LRMs still wont hit. And theres also the triple AMS kitfox which totally facerapes LRM boats. So really LRMs arnt gonna counter gauss builds at all...

Plus youre going to be incurring heat penalties by firing LRMs. While Gauss mechs wont be incurring heat penalties at all. Again this whole idea of heat scale penalties is poorly conceived and will literally just elevate Gauss from being slightly overpowered to being absolute god-level.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

The Gauss i really hate this weapon.... a quick "check" (damage/range vs heat/ammunition/weight) simple says the Gauss is absolute OP - (in TT) not to mention the Clan Gauss.
In this quick TT check the Gauss got a value of 13.... while the next weapon of course the broken IS LBX only got 9 (firing slug)

Just to bring the Gauss "in line" with the LB10X need to increase the heat of this weapon towards 8. And we are still just talking about TT - and the IS weapon.
In MWO terms the Gauss no matter the charge mechanic (that is not a serious problem), or its good chance to go boom - nothing to prevent usage - need a serious heat nerf to work with the heat mechanic at all

[adamts01]

I freakin love this. I hate laser spamming. I play my fun mechs as much as I can but there comes a time when you just need some wins and switch to a cheesy carry Timby. My big idea before this was more ghost heat and an increasing spread effect the more lasers were fired at once. It would fix the Cheetah, Firestarter, Timby, Crow etc without penalizing something like my shadow cat with 3 medium pulses. The currently proposed 40% range restriction unless a mech is targeted is crap, it makes lasers almost worthless to carry unless you do boat them. It's one more thing to manage and personally it'll make me want to keep my loadout simple, and diversity is what we're hoping for. I don't really like the idea of removing convergence unless a mech is targeted, that penalizes even the weaker chassis that are already hard to do well in. At most, slow down convergence to avoid poptarting. An automatic range finder would still take a half second to adjust weapon systems. So those were my ideas. But this is pretty cool. Mechs with limeted energy hardpoints which are now sub-par wouldn't be effected so much. Jump jets would be awesome but not OP as they'd very much limit combat ability. Maybe increase cockpit shake to make sure there's no poptarting. The all energy builds wouldn't be nerfed to death, a mix of long range and short range lasers would make it so they always have an efficient weapon to use. As someone else mentioned, guass would be the only real problem. I think there's a system in place where you can only fire 2 at once. Make that 1 at once. If the cooldown or charge time was worse than it is now no one would run it but assaults. Don't punish the shadowcat that tries to make it work. Also nerf ECM so LRMs have a place again, with all that heat it won't be a steady stream of pain. This would be a good time to introduce the light guass, so that mediums and lights would have a low heat alternative. Now you have me all excited about possibilities. I hate you.

[adamts01]

If they leave the guass how it is but limit the amount you can charge at once to 1 that pretty much fixes it. A single guass won't be able to trade with a dual ppc. There will be a an assault that runs dual ppc one guass but he would absolutely suck in a brawl with the new heat scale. The guass problem isn't that hard to fix. I think this is a very solid plan. It'll never happen but it is well thought out.

Edited by adamts01, 15 October 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[stjobe]

Night Thastus, on 25 September 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

3: Drop the heat capacity of all 'Mechs to 30 (currently at 60). As well, heatsinks would no longer add to this value, as they do now. This helps counter the previous changes, making boating a huge collection of energy weaponry much more difficult.

First off, heat capacity isn't 60. It's (number of single-heat-sink-equivalents + 30 + pilot skills). A comes-with-the-engine DHS is 2.0 single-heat-sink-equivalents, an external DHS is 1.4.

Secondly, while it is interesting to try a reduced capacity, please remember that in TT, you get to subtract your single-heat-sink-equivalents from your accrued heat before applying it to the heat scale.

These two, taken in concert, means that the only difference between MWO heat capacity and TT heat capacity is the strange interpretation of the word "double" in Double Heat Sinks in MWO, and MWO's pilot skills that increase heat capacity.

This old graph tries to illustrate that concept (it is missing pilot skill increases though, and was made a long time ago, so take it for what it is):


Some notes:
Please observe that 0 heat is located after the blue portion of the TT heat capacity bar, not at the far left as on the MWO one - this is because you got to subtract your heat sink value from your heat before applying it to the scale.
Please also note how the MWO bars are missing any form of red parts; that's the missing heat penalties we so sorely need.
Also note how the bars are equally long for TT and MWO; this is because while the mechanics are different, the capacity actually is functionally equivalent (sans pilot skill increases).

Edited by stjobe, 15 October 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[Mordric]

Pgi id adding more heat dissipation In the test server. So my guess throw all othere weapons out. And lets just build extremely high Alpha laser builds.