254 replies to this topic

[Sixpack]

So people are simply comparing equipment again?

Only way any further changes could be made is by murdering any IS quirks in regard to mobility and durability because these are meant to balance out IS and Clan engines.

[Kaeb Odellas]

kapusta11, on 08 December 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

So clans are allowed to have OP engines because otherwise STD engines would suck? What kind of twisted logic is that?

I understand your reasoning here, but the Clans should have an edge here for the sake of flavor. IS mechs can be buffed in other ways to compensate for this edge. Like making their weapons better, or toughness quirks, for instance

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Lugh, on 08 December 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Considering that the the 20% pretty much guarantees a lack of twist to protect the other side, and more often than not results in immediate death anyway? I might, depending on how many guaranteed seconds of glory you were giving away.

Oh com'on Lugh, the 20% reduction is not that crippling. Sure it hurts, but when you're working with a teammate it's far from a death sentence.

[Johnny Z]

Shutdown instead of insta blow for Inner Sphere side torso loss. Address the completely OP and free weight and crit space clan CASE. Balance the clan gauss and PPC. Done. Topic closed.

[kapusta11]

Johnny Z, on 08 December 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Shutdown instead of insta blow for Inner Sphere side torso loss. Address the completely OP and free weight and crit space clan CASE. Balance the clan gauss and PPC. Done. Topic closed.

Yes because shutdown out in the open is somehow different than death...

[Johnny Z]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 08 December 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Well this doesn't appear to e the game for you, friend. MWO will never fully follow lore.

Technically this is the 5th MechWarrior computer game not including dlc's and none of them followed lore. I find it hard to believe any computer game will follow the board game ver batem.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2015 - 02:29 PM.

[Johnny Z]

kapusta11, on 08 December 2015 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yes because shutdown out in the open is somehow different than death...

It isn't insta death(which is just uncool and this problem needs to be fixed for this reason alone) and offers more survivability. This is just better in every way. It adds immersion and tension to a mech under fire and adds the ct armor and other side torso armor of Inner Sphere XL mechs back into the game.

Its also simple and not a convoluted mess.

If for some reason this make Inner Sphere XL mechs to strong, the shut down time can be extended. But having insta blow of a mech due to RT CT LT loss is to much and always has been.

Under these conditions an Inner Sphere light which all use XL engines is still done for in almost the exact same way losing a leg dooms an Inner Sphere light. The difference is it isn't insta blow.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Assign HP to each crit slot taken up by an engine, when three crit slots are destroyed (HP=0) the 'Mech is destroyed.
Problem with simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Probably difficult to code.

[DrxAbstract]

Mcgral18, on 08 December 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Look at all the LFEs we have...

Oh, right...they don't exist.


All engine Crits does is bring TTK down, exactly what most people want to avoid.

From looking at the way they did Engine and baseline chassis weights, it's simply a matter that IS Engines, both XL and STD weigh too damn much. Adding to this the baseline chassis weights being inconsistent relative to tonnage, PGI could minimize some disparity simply by redoing those figures alone.

Take for example the 10% mandatory tonnage all Mechs pay toward Structure weight (That Endo Steel modifies by 50%). That's 2 tons on a Locust and 10 for an Atlas. Suffice to say, 2 tons means a lot more to a Locust than 10 does to an Atlas. Halving the starting tonnage cost to 1 for 20 tons and proceeding like this:

20: 1.0
25: 1.5
30: 2.0
35: 2.5
40: 3.0
45: 3.5
50: 4.5
55: 5.0
60: 5.5
65: 6.0
70: 7.0
75: 7.5
80: 8.0
85: 8.5
90: 9.0
95: 9.5
100: 10.0


Overall, this minimizes the effect of Endo Steel for Lights, Mediums and some Heavies for a total net gain with it, and less of a tonnage impact if you dont use it. The lighter end of the spectrum gets a small boost to available tonnage when factoring current structure combined with Endo Steel versus the modified structure with Endo Steel. The 20 to 45 tons would receive .5 tons of extra weight to play with. Nothing major - an extra jump jet or perhaps a slightly better engine. 50 to 65 tons get an extra .25 tons, which could be a few points of armor you dont need to shave off to make that sweet build work. 70 to 100 is business as usual.

Add to this an Engine weight re-scale and you start seeing the cumulative effects take shape, because a 400 STD engine weighing 59.5 tons makes it a a fool's endeavor, however amusing a 70 kph, 6 Medium Pulse Atlas might be. 50 Tons wouldn't make it so outlandish though--At least then you could fit an AC20 with 6 Medium Lasers. The point being currently the STD's survivability gain vs. weight isnt worth it and the XL's survivability loss vs. weight also isnt worth it. They both weigh too much for their respective ups and downs to matter compared to Clan XLs to such an extent your choice is essentially between being outgunned or outgunned+outlived.

[Azzgaroth]

This is the way to go imho. And dont be fooled by my FRR tag, im a die hard clanner.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Johnny Z, on 08 December 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Shutdown instead of insta blow for Inner Sphere side torso loss. Address the completely OP and free weight and crit space clan CASE. Balance the clan gauss and PPC. Done. Topic closed.

I dunno. A valiant last stand in a dying mech seems far cooler than simply shutting down and hoping your in-game pilot avatar pushes buttons fast enough.

[Mystere]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 December 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

So would you reasonably take a standard engine over a Clan XL in your Clan mechs or not?

And while you're whining about Clan nerfs, understand that PGI is pretty much dead set on having roughly 1:1 IS vs Clan battles, because the things that would actually give the IS a chance on the battlefield (superior numbers, artillery support, air support, combined arms tactics with tanks and infantry, and zellbrigen) would be too difficult and resource intensive to implement or impossible to enforce in a multiplayer shooter.

I don't know if it's really "too difficult" or even just "difficult". Methinks it's just an excuse to really not do it (i.e. X Clan vs. Y IS, where X < Y). And since were on this topic:

Mystere said:

The general problem I am seeing is that almost everybody, PGI and players alike, are only looking at gear for balance, for an IP that is inherently asymmetrical. It has already failed several times, miserably, and yet people still insist on repeatedly doing the exact same thing -- the definition of insanity.

So why not stop this insanity? Why not have a real balancing system based on more than just gear? Use all of the following:

• only IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, IS vs. Clan fights
  
• lore formations
  
• game modes
  
• drop weight
  
• respawn size (as reinforcements)
  
• victory conditions
  
• Mech construction rules
  
• weapon attributes and mechanics
  
• equipment attributes and mechanics
  
• reward system
  
• etc. etc. etc.

We already have 6 of these in Community Warfare. Make CW the central feature as it's supposed to be and significantly de-emphasize the public queues. Make the latter part of the "training" component of MWO.

Edited by Mystere, 08 December 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Destoroyah]

I agree the clan XL engine is still superior to IS Standard and IS XL and the answer is not to nerf the Clan XL more but Buff IS Engines.

Since Standard Eats up so much tonnage compared to a XL Engine which results in slower speeds(usually cause for the tonnage you get from a XL is now being used on the engine so you have to generally use a smaller engine so you got enough tonnage for your equipment.) and less weapon and armor space so it should get the biggest buff.
Standard should apply like 50-40% additional Structure to all the torsos(maybe even more for 20-40 tonners like 75%) and 25% additional leg structure to 20-40 ton mechs, this applies to Clan Standards to give them a reason to downgrade from the Clan XL and take the penalties of doing so.

IS XL should stay as the you lose any torso you die, but get like 25% beefed structure in your torsos so it takes longer to go down.

IS Light Fusion Engines - when these are released they should be just like Clan XL but since they weigh more maybe reduce the lose of side torso penalties from 20% to 15 or 10 percent.

This way the type of engine you use matters and each gots it's pros and cons.

Standard = Pros: Great survivability. Cons: Heavy/slower speed/less tonnage for equipment-armor.

IS XL = Pros: Great tonnage saving/generally greater speed/some structure reinforcement. Cons: Fragile Body

LFEs and CXL = Pros: The general benefits of both the IS XL(tonnage saving and greater speeds) and Standard(Good survivability) Engines. Cons: No structure bonuses and penalties if you lose a Side Torso.

Since most of the structure quirks were probably done because of the engine disparity they sjould be readjusted with mechs with BAD hitboxes or poor weapon loadouts getting the better values.

Looking at the new IIC pack only the hunchback and jenner would have any reason to go standard however with the clan XL bringing almost the survivability of a standard engine plus all the bonuses of a XL I don't see anyone seriously going to use a standard in any of them unless they make it matter. Right now all lights and most very small mediums are required to go XL cause speed is their defence since they can't soak up hits worth very well. Now if they were noticeable beefier with a sacrifice of a little speed you might see standard engines on some lights.

Edited by Destoroyah, 08 December 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Kaeb Odellas, on 08 December 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

I dunno. A valiant last stand in a dying mech seems far cooler than simply shutting down and hoping your in-game pilot avatar pushes buttons fast enough.

I havnt thought about alternatives to the shut down. If this is a better alternative then fine. I just think the insta blow sucks and should be fixed asap. It was always uncool. For the new player experience this should be fixed to.


Again insta blow on RT CT LT is to much. Any so called lore pushers can screw off. Shut down should be in game 2 years ago. Once its in I think players will have hard time thinking how harsh insta blow actually is.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Mystere]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 08 December 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Gee, aren't you pleasant? The engine slowdown mechanic is not that bad, and in my honest opinion the latest patch has come as close to balance as we've ever been.

My greatest fear is harmonization, and we are slowly heading in that direction.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 08 December 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

And actually, if he doesn't like how things are in lore, he can keep playing, because PGI has explained time and time again that they will break lore, when necessary, for balance convenience.

I suspect that is the real reason.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 08 December 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

I don't know if it's founded, but PGI fears 10 v 12 would be a bad business model, so it's not going to happen. Since it's not PGI is pursuing other avenues of balance. Good on them for that.

Has everyone already forgotten about their "minimally viable product" goal?

Edited by Mystere, 08 December 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Mystere, on 08 December 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

My greatest fear is harmonization, and we are slowly heading in that direction.

I agree no character for the two techs should be avoided at all costs and the game loses any character it does have without it. There isn't anything else separating the factions after all. This needs to be built upon not reduced.

Your greatest fear as a player should be easy mode though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Assign HP to each crit slot taken up by an engine, when three crit slots are destroyed (HP=0) the 'Mech is destroyed.
Problem with simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Probably difficult to code.

This doesn't solve the problem of instant death on IS XL side torso loss, since losing the torso means losing 3 crits slots on the engine anyway. Plus, it opens up the possibility of a single AC20 round hitting a mech in the rear CT, blowing past the armor, and triple critting the engine, which would blow. Not unless you give each slot more than 20 hp, which would then defeat the purpose of the exercise.

[Tombstoner]

DrxAbstract, on 08 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

When you take the TT game into consideration a fast assault with a 400 engine is basically a charger. It charges things.
Why its got speed and the armor to beat the ever loving stuffing out of anything in melee range. yea MWO is a different game.

to fix IS XL's just add a huge heat penalty to IS mechs..... problem solved.

[Mystere]

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 December 2015 - 02:32 PM, said:

Simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Assign HP to each crit slot taken up by an engine, when three crit slots are destroyed (HP=0) the 'Mech is destroyed.
Problem with simple, lore/TT friendly solution: Probably too difficult to code ().

FTFY.

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 08 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I agree no character for the two techs should be avoided at all costs and the game loses any character it does have without it. There isn't anything else separating the factions after all. This needs to be built upon not reduced.

Because almost everybody seems intent on forcing balance based on gear alone, instead of something like what I listed a few posts above this.