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[Bug] So, There's This Bug With Dhs...


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#1 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:10 PM

Alright, I'm gonna start this with:

'No, I'm not complaining about how they aren't actually "double" heatsinks.'

There is, however, still an issue with the veracity of the claim by PGI that heatsinks in the engine actually are counted as 2.0, while ones outside it are counted as 1.4, because at most, only half of that statement is true. I'm not sure which half, and it's also possible that it's entirely false, at least for my example.

And yes, there are pictures.

(This is gonna be long, but it's mostly pictures anyways.)

*ahem*


As many people who play this game know, engines, both standard and XL, contain 1 heatsink for every number of times their engine rating is divisible by 25, rounded down.

Engine Size vs Internal Heatsinks:

100 -------------------- 4
105 -------------------- 4
110 -------------------- 4
115 -------------------- 4
120 -------------------- 4
125 -------------------- 5
130 -------------------- 5
135 -------------------- 5
140 -------------------- 5
145 -------------------- 5
150 -------------------- 6
155 -------------------- 6
160 -------------------- 6
165 -------------------- 6
170 -------------------- 6
175 -------------------- 7

etc.

Once it reaches an Engine rating of 250, there are no more automatic heat sinks. Instead, it provides you with space to include your own, at the cost of additional tonnage being used up, but not additional critical slots. I believe that heatsinks which are not included in the engine are counted as being outside the engine (for the purpose of determining how many heatsinks they count for), regardless of where they are actually placed. (EX: You have an XL 300, and you put 2 DHS in the critical slots where they are allowed to be placed. Despite them being placed in the engine, they are only counted as 1.4, instead of 2.0, which is what they should be.)

And the 'counted as 2.0 as they should be', is what brings me to my problem:


So, I took screenshots of my Hunchback SP, with two different engine sizes in it.

The first set is with a Standard 245 Engine in it, while the second set is with a Standard 250 Engine in it.

The screenshots of are of the same hunchback, with the exact same configuration, save for the engine size, and the amount of ammo in the one with the 250. I removed one ton of ammo from that configuration to demonstrate that even if the weapons remain the same, the heat efficiency does not change, which is not what is supposed to happen.

The screenshots are in the order of:

'master configuration' (this one shows the total number of heatsinks as well as the engine size and weapon loadout)
'head configuration'
'center torso configuration'
'right torso configuration'
'left torso configuration'
'right arm configuration'
'left arm configuration'
'right leg configuration'
'left leg configuration'
'armor configuration'

(In case the images are too small for you to read properly, you can click on them to bring them up in a separate view which shows it at full resolution.)

Here are the screenshots of the first set (Standard 245 Engine):

Master Configuration:
Posted Image

Head Configuration:
Posted Image

Center Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Left Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Arm Configuration:
Posted Image

Left Arm Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Leg Configuration:Posted Image

Left Leg Configuration:
Posted Image

Armor Configuration:
Posted Image




Here are the screenshots of the second set (Standard 250 Engine):

Master Configuration:
Posted Image

Head Configuration:
Posted Image

Center Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Left Torso Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Arm Configuration:
Posted Image

Left Arm Configuration:
Posted Image

Right Leg Configuration:
Posted Image

Left Leg Configuration:
Posted Image

Armor Configuration:
Posted Image


Notice how the weapons loadout doesn't change? Both loadouts of the mech have:
2x SRM 6 + Artemis
1x TAG
4x Medium Lasers
12x DHS.

BUT

The first variant has 9 heatsinks in the engine, (which should each be counted as 2.0 heatsinks), while the second variant has 10 heatsinks in the engine, (which should each be counted as 2.0 heatsinks).

The issue here, is that the heat efficiency for both mechs remains at 1.07/2.00 -- this is, according to the supposed rules of DHS, impossible.
For mech 1:
has 9 heatsinks in engine, counted at 2.0 each, and 3 heatsinks outside engine, counted at 1.4 each.

For mech 2:
has 10 heatsinks in engine, counted at 2.0 each, and 2 heatsinks outside engine, counted at 1.4 each.

Regardless of any other math involved, those two numbers should not work out to be equal to each other.

Now, I may not be a programmer, but I think I can say with 100% certainty that there is something plainly wrong with at least one part of the coding for Double Heatsinks.

Can anyone else verify this?

Edited by Spirit of the Wolf, 04 December 2012 - 10:19 PM.


#2 Verminaard

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

I can't confirm it, But something does indeed look off. I have wondered myself a few times why my heat seemed to not change with engine size.

#3 Bigbaddaboom

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:40 PM

Very interesting.

#4 xXBagheeraXx

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:46 PM

heh...Ive known this was off ever since 17 double heatsinks couldnt outcool 3 to 4 freaking medium lasers...LOL

The sinks simply need to be 2.0, with half the heat capacity we have now...Kthxbai...

#5 Elizander

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:48 PM

All engines come with 10 weight-free heat sinks. These are the ones affected, regardless of if they are in the engine or not. Putting extra heat sinks into a large engine beyond this 10 will not convert them to 2.0.

#6 Vyc Tory

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

http://mwomercs.com/...10142-06112012/

GAMEPLAY
Double heat sinks are now 1.4 times as effective as standard heat sinks. This includes DHS's that you place on your Mech as well as those integrated into the engine.

Which means your DHS do 1.4 no matter where they are. You have 12 heatsinks, so you have the same heat efficiency.

Edited by Vyc Tory, 04 December 2012 - 10:54 PM.


#7 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:40 AM

View PostElizander, on 04 December 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

All engines come with 10 weight-free heat sinks. These are the ones affected, regardless of if they are in the engine or not. Putting extra heat sinks into a large engine beyond this 10 will not convert them to 2.0.


Given that I explicitly stated that I wasn't putting extra heatsinks into an engine, you clearly didn't read what I posted...
Also, the statement 'all engines come with 10 weight-free heat sinks' is simply incorrect. You didn't read the method (well known throughout the forums, but apparently not by everyone), of how internal heat sinks are calculated for different engine sizes.

View PostVyc Tory, on 04 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...10142-06112012/

GAMEPLAY
Double heat sinks are now 1.4 times as effective as standard heat sinks. This includes DHS's that you place on your Mech as well as those integrated into the engine.

Which means your DHS do 1.4 no matter where they are. You have 12 heatsinks, so you have the same heat efficiency.


In regards to this^
I was not aware that they had nerfed DHS again. Last I heard, the ones in the engine were counted as 2.0, and the ones outside it were 1.4

Edited by Spirit of the Wolf, 05 December 2012 - 02:10 AM.


#8 Kobura

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

View PostVyc Tory, on 04 December 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...10142-06112012/

GAMEPLAY
Double heat sinks are now 1.4 times as effective as standard heat sinks. This includes DHS's that you place on your Mech as well as those integrated into the engine.

Which means your DHS do 1.4 no matter where they are. You have 12 heatsinks, so you have the same heat efficiency.


This is from early November, man :\ WOEFULLY outdated

#9 FiveDigits

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

Guys guys guys, let's get the facts straight:
  • engine-internal DHS operate at 2.0
  • engine-slotted (275 rating and up) "DHS" operate at 1.4
  • external "DHS" operate at 1.4
The heat efficiency calculation in the mech lab assumes all DHS to operate at 1.4. Thus it shows this odd behaviour.

#10 Justa Dogtrooper

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

Must just be me but I cant make them viable...
1.5 mill +DHs cost...and there is no way I can fit enough of them (3 slots) to even equal my previous loadout.
Let alone improve on it.
Every mech I try it on ends up worse heat problem than before, or I have to strip things out to get in the sinks.

Not an upgrade in my book.
1.5 or 1.6 then just maybe it would work as an upgrade

#11 Mawai

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostFiveDigits, on 05 December 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

Guys guys guys, let's get the facts straight:
  • engine-internal DHS operate at 2.0
  • engine-slotted (275 rating and up) "DHS" operate at 1.4
  • external "DHS" operate at 1.4
The heat efficiency calculation in the mech lab assumes all DHS to operate at 1.4. Thus it shows this odd behaviour.



Can you cite a developer reference for this please. The last developer notification I read was as quoted above:

http://mwomercs.com/...10142-06112012/

GAMEPLAY
Double heat sinks are now 1.4 times as effective as standard heat sinks. This includes DHS's that you place on your Mech as well as those integrated into the engine.

----

This is the most recent comment I can find ... all more recent patch notes do not mention heat sinks.

------------

Before they implemented the change above to ALL heat sinks being 1.4 there was an issue with engine heat sinks being single and external ones being 2.0. The only way to telll for sure is in-game testing. Get in-game in a Jenner with 10 internal heat sinks and 6 medium lasers ... time the heat dissipation. Refit to add 5 external heat sinks and time the heat dissipation again.

#12 FiveDigits

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostMawai, on 05 December 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Can you cite a developer reference for this please. The last developer notification I read was as quoted above:

http://mwomercs.com/...10142-06112012/

GAMEPLAY
Double heat sinks are now 1.4 times as effective as standard heat sinks. This includes DHS's that you place on your Mech as well as those integrated into the engine.

[...]



Here you go! (Bryan Ekman, 2012-11-23)

Quote

1) Double heat sinks internal to the engine are set to increase the heat scale by 2 points and provide -0.2 heat/sec cooling. Double heat sinks that you add to your Mech increase the heat scale by 1.4 points and provide -0.14 heat/sec cooling. (For reference, single heat sinks increase the scale by 1 and cool -0.1 heat/sec. The heat scale starts at 30 and is then is increased based on the heat sinks in your Mech.)


We got this response after several days of community testing and datamining which led to the same conclusions.

Dhs Effectiveness
You Hear That? (The Sound Of Silence Over Dhs)

Edited by FiveDigits, 05 December 2012 - 05:30 AM.


#13 Targaryen X

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:49 AM

Okay fair enough but the 11/23 Ekman info does not seem to be correct considering the OPs info.
Course it could just be the heat efficiency meter thing is wrong in its calculations, using the 11/5 version and has not been updated to the 11/23 HS spec.
Dev comment would be nice as the OPs test is pretty simple to reproduce.

#14 BrightCandle

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:58 AM

The 2.0, 1.4, 1.4 behaviour has been confirmed through play testing and found in the xml files to be correct. The 3 different types of heatsinks (internal of engine, slotted and external) have the heat dissipation figures FiveDigits says they have. You can go look in the pak files yourself if you like.

The mechlab continues to not reflect the bug, or rather the bug still hasn't been fixed and the devs seem to have their fingers in their ears on the topic now.

#15 HighTest

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:30 AM

You know, if they just made DHS heat sinks all real 2.0x double heatsinks like they are supposed to be in-game (TT, previous games, whatever), then this problem would cease to exist.

I'm still a little confused as to why DHS need to be 'balanced' to 1.4x in-game when anyone that played TT or previous MW games knew that the absolute first upgrade to make was to upgrade to DHS.

I'm just fuzzy on why Gauss rifles need to be just as good as PPCs which should be just as good as MLASs and LRMs and SSRMs, etc. Some weapons have always been 'better' than others in-game (at least for certain scenarios/uses).

If everything works pretty much all the same, why do we need any choice at all? Just make each mech have one full-range laser and the same speed and armor and heat dissipation as each other and be done with it. Then no one can complain.

If players don't like SHS, then they can save up and put proper 2.0x DHS on their mech. It doesn't need balancing -- anyone can make the CBills to do it.

My $.02. Sorry for the rant.

#16 FiveDigits

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:54 AM

View PostHighTest, on 05 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

You know, if they just made DHS heat sinks all real 2.0x double heatsinks like they are supposed to be in-game (TT, previous games, whatever), then this problem would cease to exist.

I'm still a little confused as to why DHS need to be 'balanced' to 1.4x in-game when anyone that played TT or previous MW games knew that the absolute first upgrade to make was to upgrade to DHS.

[...]


This post by Garth Erlam is why :)

Quote

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.


This quote has been laughed at in many a previous DHS discussion threads. So, I won't withold it here either.
Needless to say nothing in it is factual. Most ironically, a standard Jenner build (4 ML, 2 SRM4) with a 300 XL engine has 10 in-engine DHS at 0.2 HPS dissipation and (optionally) 2 slotted 0.14 HPS "DHS" for a total of 22.8 HPS - in game, as of now. True DHS would give the same Jenner 24 HPS - a mere 1.2 HPS increase.
I can totally see said Jenner "core an Atlas in roughly 3 seconds" ... not.

Edited by FiveDigits, 05 December 2012 - 07:57 AM.


#17 HighTest

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 08:11 AM

Exactly.

First off, I'm not sure if DHS increase a mech's heat threshhold, but if they do, they shouldn't. Never really checked to see if they made a difference that way.

Secondly, sure, DHS dissipate heat faster, but it still doesn't increase a weapon's rate of fire. Sure, the duration of sustained fire would increase to some degree, but DPS wouldn't change in the slightest until the 'SHS' model would have gone into shutdown.

I just don't see how a 2.0x cooling factor is that unbalanced. Now, at 1.4x, I just find it's hard to justify the 1.5m CBill charge for them.

HEY! That's it! PGI, you need to fix the game imbalance. DHS are way too expensive. You need to balance them out as a (1,500,000 CBills x (1.4 - 1) = ) 600k CBill upgrade instead. Let everyone pay 1.5mil CBills when they're actually DHS again. :)

#18 Spirit of the Wolf

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:16 PM

View PostHighTest, on 05 December 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Exactly.

First off, I'm not sure if DHS increase a mech's heat threshhold, but if they do, they shouldn't. Never really checked to see if they made a difference that way.

Secondly, sure, DHS dissipate heat faster, but it still doesn't increase a weapon's rate of fire. Sure, the duration of sustained fire would increase to some degree, but DPS wouldn't change in the slightest until the 'SHS' model would have gone into shutdown.

I just don't see how a 2.0x cooling factor is that unbalanced. Now, at 1.4x, I just find it's hard to justify the 1.5m CBill charge for them.

HEY! That's it! PGI, you need to fix the game imbalance. DHS are way too expensive. You need to balance them out as a (1,500,000 CBills x (1.4 - 1) = ) 600k CBill upgrade instead. Let everyone pay 1.5mil CBills when they're actually DHS again. :)



The 2.0 Cooling factor was 'unbalanced' because it basically made all energy weapons extremely powerful, to the point that they had too much of an advantage over ammunition-based weapons to justify using anything else, save for maybe LRMS because of range.

As for the 1.5 million, I think it's fine where it is for assault mechs, but I think the cost should be decreased for smaller mechs.

Here's an idea:

Light mechs = 600k
Medium mechs = 900k
Heavy mechs = 1200k
Assault mechs = 1500k

An incremental increase, with an even amount increasing each time. (Maybe fine-tune it for specific weights, idk.)

Endo-steel is practically a required upgrade for most mechs, and that is something I'm fine with -- it changes based on tonnage.
But DHS benefits almost all mechs, and it's a static 1.5 mil :lol:

Sense: It makes none.

#19 Kobura

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 09:40 PM

Especially since it's effectively either buff #84625903475623908475 to mechs ~40tons and below, or softnerf #10 to mechs above.

MAKE THE SWAYBACK VIABLE

#20 AC

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

The balance to double heat sinks is the number of slots they take up. You can fit (At most) 4 in each LT and RT of the mech (for 8 total) if you do not place any weapons there or do not have an XL. That is equal to 11 single heat sinks. You can't fit doubles in the legs, or CT, which really limits how many you can take. They balance themselves due to space constraints. They did not, nor do not need to be 1.4. You really have no way to get superior cooling over single heat sinks in their current state.

Which makes me wonder how they are an 'upgrade' and you pay out the nose for them.

Edited by AC, 05 December 2012 - 10:30 PM.






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