Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:48 AM
Now, before blowing me up, please hear me out. As most know, by the lively debate on one of my questions, I have reservations about finding a system that will "fairly" allow access to thee Clans and Clan Tech (even for Inner Sphere forces) that won't end up making Clan Tech essentially mandatory to maintain competitive play (see MW4 online leagues).
Anyhow, I am not claiming this idea as my own, Bagheera planted the seeds of it, and this is just my "epiphany and run" take on the idea:
I actually REALLY like the idea "Parts Salvage" .. dunno if I am thinking in the same lines as you, since they pretty obviously can't just decide at the end of a match "hey, Bob gets a large laser, Mike gets a PPC, etc". Hence we get C-bill "salvage awards". Fine, but TBH loses some of the flavor of Battltech.
BUT
If each match ended with "Salvage Points" broken down into "Inner Sphere Salvage Points" and "Clan Salvage Points" awarded separately from the C-bills, I think it could set up an interesting side part to the economy.
Have Clan Equipment ONLY available (mechs too) by purchasing with "Clan Salvage Points", for instance, which cannot be gained in any way but playing matches. So to get a Clan ER Large Laser for instance might cost "X" Clan Salvage Pts (referred to from here as CSpts), the ER PPC, "Z" CSpts. These points are only earned in Drops against Clan Opponents. So one could, slowly earn enough to kit out their IS mech (with "Clan Tech Enabler Module") to Clan Weapons and Equipment, or conceivably even "salvage" a whole Clan Mech. But if RnR gets reconstituted in CW, then you would also need Clan Salvage points to repair the Weapons and Equipment, since you can't buy s new Clan Medium Pulse Laser at RadioShack.
Anyhow, NOW, if you have read all this, feel free ti rip it to shreds and point out where I am a blue bellied fool!
TL:DR.... add "Salvage Points" to the awards screen, broken into 2 categories "Inner Sphere and Clan", awarded according to which faction one faced and adjusted by W/L, Kills, Damage, etc. These points can be earned only through battle, and are the only way to access and repair Clan Mechs and technology.
***Compiled "replies" for those who cannot actually read the topic through.
Spoiler
except that eventually, people will want to load that clan Gauss onto their Atlas, and or a Member of an Established Merc Corp (or you know, the Crown Princes of the Federated Commonwealth or House Kurita) might want to drop with a salvaged Clan Mech.. which would be impossible with your suggestion. And Inner Sphere units DO eventually start getting Clan Tech (just very slowly and not for quite some time)
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Good point at the end there.
I think the basic premise is that there are going to be people playing clans, and then people playing Inner Sphere, what the distribution and how one or the other becomes accessible, I do not know.
The hope is that people choosing "Clan Factions" will be put in a 5 man drop (aka Star formation) while the Inner Sphere forces continue in 8 man teams, as group disparity has always been the actual "balance" between the advantages of clan tech over normal. But matchmaking is for another thread.
I would assume pure "Clan" players would function under a totally differing economy model to begin with, and have things like Honor points and such count toward their economy and piloting trees.
From this stand point, it is more for the dedicated "Inner Sphere Factions" to balance the acquisition and emergence of Clan Tech by IS players. It would keep any possibility of P2W out of the equation, as Salvage would NOT be a purchasable attribute, but ONLY won in battle, 2 it would slow the roll on IS forces suddenly just having everyone show up in MadCats, because one doesn't just need to drop MC, but a few atlases, resell them and bang, have enough C-Bills to buy the Uber Mech. One basically starts accumulating weapons and tech piecemeal, has to repair and maintain it separate from the normal economy and with a LOT of time, might "salvage" a whole chassis. But since, as you said, repairing it requires Clan Salvage Points too, it would mean that players would not be running it every match, and that the "Obsolete" IS builds would remain the standardized IS units for the foreseeable future.
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Yes. I am assuming (possibly wrongly) that the Clans will have their own unique "economy" and Matchmaking/drop system that will help balance "Clan Factions". (Probably "Honor Points and Stuff that add up from maintaining Zellbrigen and such combined with numeric inferiority in drops. Which will give the Min/Max Steamroll crowd pause, since they might have the better toys, but most people seem to be a little worried about fighting 5 on 8 or such.... which is funny since in HARD Corp, we have been in 5 v 8 due to match maker bugs and won quite a few))
So basically, this model would be solely for Inner Sphere Forces and their acquisition of Clan Tech.
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Also given is that if IS players don't have some access, then the QQing will burn the forums to the ground. Canon vs IRL money making pretty well says that PGI will have to be flexible here.
Also of note, if you read many of the "side" novels, Units like Avanti's Angels and Camacho's Caballeros had jury rigged some Clan Tech apparently pretty early on. Now given MY preferrences, such expediences would be doable, but buggy as hell. Since I doubt that would really be implementable, we will see.
But sorry "locked" Clan Tech ONLY vs IS only queues simply won't work. Wolf's Dragoons have Clan Tech NOW. Within the Next Year, the Kell Hounds will have begun to refit their 1st Regiment with it. And in about a year the Princes of 2 realms will have Daishi. By your method, they would have to drop AS Clanners and fight the IS.
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Gosh thanks for the history update, Captain Obvious. The part you are OBVIOUSLY overlooking, is that Wolfs Dragoon have not been in contact with the Clans since 3019? And at this point in Time its "Bondsman Phelan". Not even a Mechwarrior, yet alone a Star Commander, Bloodnamed OR a Khan. Therefore, totally irrelevant to the Kell Hounds and the acquisition of Clan Tech.
The Kell Hounds had a fully kitted out REGIMENT by the battle of Luthien, courtesy of salvage and help from Wolf's Dragoons. And they didn't exactly manage to do all those mods on the trip in system.
If you wished to argue that since no one will be running those canon units, then you might have had some validity to your argument. Except of course, you are trying to use canon to make the opposite point, which would again, have nullified it.
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well, since too many people would argue over actual parts, the point of "Salvage Pts" would be a pool of "salvage" that would accrue to allow you to purchase Clan tech, lets say you get (pulling number out of butt here)2 Clanner Kills, and it pays out 10 salvage pts for a match against Clan Opponents.... then to "acquire a salvaged Clan ER Large Laser costs 20 Salvage (again not trying for "balanced number, fill in XYZ as you please for purpose of illustration), so 2 matches of similar results and maybe you can get the Clan ER Large Laser (Which in all honesty, this example would be getting stuff TOO easy, probably). The down side being also, if the weapon is destroyed or damage, it might take anywhere from 5-10 salvage to repair it before being usable again. Etc.
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If you really read through the post, the end goal may be to get Clan Tech... but then, that pretty much is the end goal once people see it anyhow in Battletech.. cuz it's better.
BUT
The system I am proposing means that they will NEVER be able to run it exclusively. Because to repair it requires salvage. And it can be lost forever if instead of damaged, it is "destroyed" in the fight. I might be in favor of a Chassis never being truly destroyed, but those will be unbelievable long and hard grinds to acquire, and you would STILL need to capture a lot of salvage to repair it. Hence people will still have plenty of reason to use stock 3025/3050 IS tech because there will be no way for someone to become so rich in Clan Salvage as to never have to worry. Especially when they try to use another Clan mech to procure Clan Salvage.. and then have to spend the salvage fixing that one too.
BUT.. your point makes me think of a modifier that would definitely solve that.....Dropping in a Clan Chassis could easily be set to gain no Clan Salvage Pts (the same simple mechanic used to deny XP on trial mechs back in the day), so the only way that you COULD repair your precious clan mech would be by dropping with IS tech. Though I don't think Inner Sphere Chassis mounting clan weapons should lose out. This also would likely mean you would reserve that Madcat or whatever for the most important of missions, or for tournaments.
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Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 February 2013 - 11:29 AM.
I said yes. Needs fleshing out but yes, absolutely. C-Tech is coming, we know that. We need balancing and acquisition methods that minimize legitimate QQ, and this looks like a promising premise.
Short version you can get rare salvage, rare salvage you have to pay cbills to repair it if you break it or pay cbills to arm it. Great if you win, hurts your cash flow if you loose. Not better, not worse just different.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:04 PM
HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:
I said yes. Needs fleshing out but yes, absolutely. C-Tech is coming, we know that. We need balancing and acquisition methods that minimize legitimate QQ, and this looks like a promising premise.
Oh totally agree that what I posted is, at best, formative bare bones. And that was formed off even more formative seeds from Bagheera, which just sorta made something go "click" in my head... (or that could have just been a blood vessel breaking as I stroke out...)
But hey, even though PGI I am guessing has their own ideas mapped put quite a bit, fomenting POSITIVE and insightful discussion on a possible work around can't hurt.. heck, might even help.
(OK< probably being to unrealistically positive here..... this is the GenDis forum after all, home of trolls and flaming.. not facts)
Look so long as they do Stars Vs Lances so 10 clanners vs 12 IS its a balance anyways. Clan tech can only drop clan IS can only drop IS or could drop in Clan. Clan could never drop in IS groups though.
Long skinny is 1 clan mech makes it stars no clan makes lances.
Short version you can get rare salvage, rare salvage you have to pay cbills to repair it if you break it or pay cbills to arm it. Great if you win, hurts your cash flow if you loose. Not better, not worse just different.
well I tried to "like" your Post.. but apparently "I have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"... yup.. what did I say about trying to be positive around here..........
Eric darkstar Marr, on 31 January 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:
Look so long as they do Stars Vs Lances so 10 clanners vs 12 IS its a balance anyways. Clan tech can only drop clan IS can only drop IS or could drop in Clan. Clan could never drop in IS groups though.
Long skinny is 1 clan mech makes it stars no clan makes lances.
There does not need to be a special system.
except that eventually, people will want to load that clan Gauss onto their Atlas, and or a Member of an Established Merc Corp (or you know, the Crown Princes of the Federated Commonwealth or House Kurita) might want to drop with a salvaged Clan Mech.. which would be impossible with your suggestion. And Inner Sphere units DO eventually start getting Clan Tech (just very slowly and not for quite some time)
Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.
If clan tech is as OP as it should be, 10v12 would be no match at all. Too weighted in clanners favor.
5v12 seems a bit weighted toward IS, tho, so, who knows?
maybe 5v8? Seems kinda small-ish to me, scale-wise, but maybe thats the magic number.
And IS should not get clan tech. Not for a long time. Keep the game as IS vs Clan and i think you have a winner. Start mixing and matching the tech up, and everything they've done for the last year w/ IS weapons and balance (such as it is) goes right out the window cuz clan tech trumps all.
Edited by 8RoundsRapid, 31 January 2013 - 12:10 PM.
Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:
well I tried to "like" your Post.. but apparently "I have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"... yup.. what did I say about trying to be positive around here..........
except that eventually, people will want to load that clan Gauss onto their Atlas, and or a Member of an Established Merc Corp (or you know, the Crown Princes of the Federated Commonwealth or House Kurita) might want to drop with a salvaged Clan Mech.. which would be impossible with your suggestion. And Inner Sphere units DO eventually start getting Clan Tech (just very slowly and not for quite some time)
Yes but it is YEARS later not in 3050 as clan mechs explode when tinkered with it wasn't till 3052 that clan tech was truly being seen in IS on mechs.
So look at the ssrm6 it was not till 3058 till the IS could even use it however the clans had been using it since 2826
Then the uac/20 wasnt used till 3060 for IS but again 2825 for the Clans.
Overall no IS mech right now in this time line and since they are doing a day to day true time line will ever and my mean never ever ever be able to use CLAN TECH ever.
3053 for the first true tech conversion and some salvaged tech was recovered all prior was destroyed and useless or took years to try and reverse engineer.
So I stick to my 2 stars versus 3 lances. Also it was very very rare for the clans to refit an older model with newer clan tech.
Also the main reason clan tech is so much better is they kept improving upon it and didn't suffer from a technological dark age like the IS.
As I have said before, Id prefer to keep the drops themselves separate. However using cbills to buy clan stuff does seem weird. My issue with your idea is the fact that there will be some type of clan faction and why would they have to get clan salvage to buy clan tech if they were clan? Shouldnt a "clanners" income be in whatever currency allows them to buy clan tech? Or if you are dropping as a clanner shouldnt you get that currency?
Heck, they could even combine it with a return of Repair & Rearm. To repair and rearm Clan weapons, you also need Salvage.
Salvage could really just work like C-Bills, except they are C-Bills for paying for Clan Tech in all its forms. And the best way to get it is fight Clans.
I think the only problem here is - someone will still need to have CLan Mechs in the first place. There is no way around, unless the devs find a way to play all the Clan opposition the game will need themselves. That may be the ultimate stumbling point of the idea. Unless you need to do something drastic to play on the Clan side (new player account?), why not do it. And even if it's drastic, is that incentive enough to not play Clan from the start?
A Clan Salvage system could work much better if there was a PvE mode. But there won't be any in the forseeable future.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:42 AM
MustrumRidcully, on 31 January 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:
Yes, I like the idea of a salvage system.
Heck, they could even combine it with a return of Repair & Rearm. To repair and rearm Clan weapons, you also need Salvage.
Salvage could really just work like C-Bills, except they are C-Bills for paying for Clan Tech in all its forms. And the best way to get it is fight Clans.
I think the only problem here is - someone will still need to have CLan Mechs in the first place. There is no way around, unless the devs find a way to play all the Clan opposition the game will need themselves. That may be the ultimate stumbling point of the idea. Unless you need to do something drastic to play on the Clan side (new player account?), why not do it. And even if it's drastic, is that incentive enough to not play Clan from the start?
A Clan Salvage system could work much better if there was a PvE mode. But there won't be any in the forseeable future.
Good point at the end there.
I think the basic premise is that there are going to be people playing clans, and then people playing Inner Sphere, what the distribution and how one or the other becomes accessible, I do not know.
The hope is that people choosing "Clan Factions" will be put in a 5 man drop (aka Star formation) while the Inner Sphere forces continue in 8 man teams, as group disparity has always been the actual "balance" between the advantages of clan tech over normal. But matchmaking is for another thread.
I would assume pure "Clan" players would function under a totally differing economy model to begin with, and have things like Honor points and such count toward their economy and piloting trees.
From this stand point, it is more for the dedicated "Inner Sphere Factions" to balance the acquisition and emergence of Clan Tech by IS players. It would keep any possibility of P2W out of the equation, as Salvage would NOT be a purchasable attribute, but ONLY won in battle, 2 it would slow the roll on IS forces suddenly just having everyone show up in MadCats, because one doesn't just need to drop MC, but a few atlases, resell them and bang, have enough C-Bills to buy the Uber Mech. One basically starts accumulating weapons and tech piecemeal, has to repair and maintain it separate from the normal economy and with a LOT of time, might "salvage" a whole chassis. But since, as you said, repairing it requires Clan Salvage Points too, it would mean that players would not be running it every match, and that the "Obsolete" IS builds would remain the standardized IS units for the foreseeable future.
Dang I just typed a lot.
Now how to get this idea transmitted to Paul or Garth or Russ........
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:45 AM
Cerlin, on 31 January 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:
As I have said before, Id prefer to keep the drops themselves separate. However using cbills to buy clan stuff does seem weird. My issue with your idea is the fact that there will be some type of clan faction and why would they have to get clan salvage to buy clan tech if they were clan? Shouldnt a "clanners" income be in whatever currency allows them to buy clan tech? Or if you are dropping as a clanner shouldnt you get that currency?
Yes. I am assuming (possibly wrongly) that the Clans will have their own unique "economy" and Matchmaking/drop system that will help balance "Clan Factions". (Probably "Honor Points and Stuff that add up from maintaining Zellbrigen and such combined with numeric inferiority in drops. Which will give the Min/Max Steamroll crowd pause, since they might have the better toys, but most people seem to be a little worried about fighting 5 on 8 or such.... which is funny since in HARD Corp, we have been in 5 v 8 due to match maker bugs and won quite a few))
So basically, this model would be solely for Inner Sphere Forces and their acquisition of Clan Tech.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 01 February 2013 - 05:51 AM
Eric darkstar Marr, on 31 January 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:
Yes but it is YEARS later not in 3050 as clan mechs explode when tinkered with it wasn't till 3052 that clan tech was truly being seen in IS on mechs.
So look at the ssrm6 it was not till 3058 till the IS could even use it however the clans had been using it since 2826
Then the uac/20 wasnt used till 3060 for IS but again 2825 for the Clans.
Overall no IS mech right now in this time line and since they are doing a day to day true time line will ever and my mean never ever ever be able to use CLAN TECH ever.
3053 for the first true tech conversion and some salvaged tech was recovered all prior was destroyed and useless or took years to try and reverse engineer.
So I stick to my 2 stars versus 3 lances. Also it was very very rare for the clans to refit an older model with newer clan tech.
Also the main reason clan tech is so much better is they kept improving upon it and didn't suffer from a technological dark age like the IS.
um.. yes.. I do believe all those points are given?
Also given is that if IS players don't have some access, then the QQing will burn the forums to the ground. Canon vs IRL money making pretty well says that PGI will have to be flexible here.
Also of note, if you read many of the "side" novels, Units like Avanti's Angels and Camacho's Caballeros had jury rigged some Clan Tech apparently pretty early on. Now given MY preferrences, such expediences would be doable, but buggy as hell. Since I doubt that would really be implementable, we will see.
But sorry "locked" Clan Tech ONLY vs IS only queues simply won't work. Wolf's Dragoons have Clan Tech NOW. Within the Next Year, the Kell Hounds will have begun to refit their 1st Regiment with it. And in about a year the Princes of 2 realms will have Daishi. By your method, they would have to drop AS Clanners and fight the IS.
Looking at it from a pure unbiased (meaning build things to be fun and NOTHING else) game design and balance perspective I'd favor such a system. Thus I voted: YES!.
BUT:
I don't see this happening. In order to monetize the stuff PGI WILL (don't be fooled, there can't be any doubt about it) make Clantech as superior as it is in TT and they WILL put a MC pricetag on it thus undermining any attempt to balance things on the "no real money involved" side of things.
I like it for the most part, although I'm a touch uncertain about the whole using CSpoints for repairing your Clan tech, wouldn't that mean that you'd HAVE to go farm Clanners on a regular basis? As Boromir would say, "One does not simply FARM the Clans."
I'd guess that they intend to balance Clan tech in general through Community Warfare (that's what CW stands for, not Clan Warfare) by making part of the struggle in holding a planet attrition based; where repairs deplete a pool of resources the faction has to defend it with, and Clan tech depletes it faster.
They really should do the bit with the module for letting people mount Clan tech. Although, I would suggest calling it a "Clan Tech Adapter" and making you need one for each Clan upgrade or piece of Clan gear. It would complement the system where they balanced out some mechs by giving them more module slots.
Yeah, because this game needs more stuff to grind and farm. Sure.
I guess it's better than a $25 Timber Wolf and $20 Summoner or clan tech weapons available for MC or people with giant credit pools being able to purchase it all up and deck out their 'mechs on the day of release, but there has to be another way.
Short version you can get rare salvage, rare salvage you have to pay cbills to repair it if you break it or pay cbills to arm it. Great if you win, hurts your cash flow if you loose. Not better, not worse just different.
I really like this idea. Would really add to the game.
how you acquire it is pretty irrelevant, if you play alot then you'll have lots of cbills, or you'll have a lot of clan salvage points, it doesn't really make a huge difference either way
also, cost/time to acquire isn't really a balancing factor, it just means that the more you play the game, the more OP your mech can be
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