135 replies to this topic

[80Bit]

I have been a long time defender of ECM, and been optimistic about all of the tweaks PGI has been putting in to balance it. But even after all the changes, ECM still seems to be a large factor in matches. Even more so now that we have Elo balancing. It is anticdotal, but it sure feels like ECM vs No-ECM matches go the way of ECM the large majority of the time.

In the following weeks as they look at Elo balance numbers, I hope PGI does one of two things.

1) If they look at the numbers and find that ECM does not have a significant impact on win chance for a team, then tell us loudly and publicly, so there is no room for doubt.

2) If they look at the numbers and find that ECM does have a significant impact in a teams win chance then tweak it more or add it as a match making factor.

[Sug]

80Bit, on 21 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

It is anticdotal, but it sure feels like ECM vs No-ECM matches go the way of ECM the large majority of the time.

Well that's completely true but is it because of ECM or because more experienced players take ECM mechs? : /

I want them to make the next trial batch the ECM carrying Raven 3L, Cicada and AtlasDC. And make the Dragon the heavy cause it needs some love.

[Fergrim]

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Expect to lose 50% of games (once you've stabilized on the learning curve and elo's working
Pet peeve, sorry.

Corrected the other mistake in there. Pet peeve also!

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ECM was never created to screw over weapons like it does, especially not streaks, not until Angel ECM.

What do you mean was never created? It's a feature, an item, a dynamic in a game created by PGI (BASED on the mechwarrior franchise which is BASED on the tabletop) created by PGI to do exactly what it does.

It doesn't "screw over weapons" it counters TWO types of weapons from working as advertised.. two, as in the number...2. And it is countered by three different items... Line of sight, and any weapon that requires aim which is like 98% of the damn weapons. Or..all except for...2. Any of which can destroy the ECM subsystem, thus rendering it useless.

What works wonders against an ECM light is quad ER ppc in the face, for one hit, you take out the ECM and the mech. Or large lasers, or a bank of mediums, or srm 6's, or AC10s.. or AC20s.. or PPCs.. the ever popular ER PPC.. oh and as always, the gauss rifle and UAC 5..

They all hard-counter ECM if you can aim.

This proves that it's your playstyle that needs to adapt, not a problem with ECM.

Although, it must be very frustrating for you, holding out hope every day that they might fulfill this fantasy. Must be difficult to even enjoy playing when the ECM fix you're dreaming of iis nowhere to be found.

Let her go man. Let her go. And just learn to play the ecm game as it is or do something you enjoy more. Maybe read books? Personally I've been enjoying "The Walking Dead" graphic novel. And the news, bbc.co.uk is always a good read, along with theguardian.co.uk

Edited by Fergrim, 21 February 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Orzorn]

80Bit, on 21 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

It is anticdotal, but it sure feels like ECM vs No-ECM matches go the way of ECM the large majority of the time.

I think its more than telling that the Raven 3L, a mech with no jump jets and one less energy hardpoint, continues to be used far more than the Jenner. Sure, the Jenner puts out more damage on slower targets, but a Raven 3L just hurts light mechs so badly it isn't even funny. They tend to run in pairs as well so their ECM can't be countered by a single ECM or a single PPC hit.

At this point, it isn't so much ECM as it is streaks. Of course, ECM enables the Raven (and Commando) to be the only lights capable of taking Streaks. Try them and on a Jenner and you'll find yourself not being able to fire them.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sug, on 21 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yeah a big slow target with ecm out in the open is no longer a problem. Ravens and other lights will be fixed once collisions are brought back in.

Seriously the ability to knock a Raven over on it's *** will make that mech completely unplayable for 90% of the people that use it now.

Fine and good, but will it bring back non-ECM lights? They will have just as many collision problems as ECM lights, except they wont have ECM.

If BAP did something useful vs ECM like letting us get locks outside 180 meters to a range of 600 meters, and/or allowing locking inside 180m but with double the lock on timer other lights would be more viable again, this is 2 reasons, 1 the raven 3L is the fastest raven, the commando 2D has some of the best punch, shifting ECM to slower/less capable variants etc.

This is a multifacted issue, my primary gripe is how ECM has led to the death of all non-ECM variants for a mech, something that imho is unbalanced and un-fun for the game - afterall why bring a non-ECM light mech when the ECM variant is ECM capable, has better hardpoints, and is faster than all the other varients?

[Thuzel]

MaddMaxx, on 21 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Does the OP truly believe his thoughts, those, that are the exact same as many other in 1000 other ECM threads was really necessary? Or perhaps it was some form of narcissism that drove to think a new Post, filled with the same stuff, as the other 1000 posts would actually turn the tide? Or just thought it good to stir **** up... again.

People keep posting new threads about nerfing ECM because they aren't sure that PGI gets the message. What makes it worse is when you have a very vocal minority yelling to keep it as it is.

PGI could stop this by stating exactly what they intend to do, but instead of that, we've only been given vague ideas.

So people keep on bringing it up.

[Orzorn]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

What do you mean was never created? It's a feature, an item, a dynamic in a game created by PGI (BASED on the mechwarrior franchise which is BASED on the tabletop) created by PGI to do exactly what it does.

Yeah, and they screwed it to hell and back. They don't want to change crit size or tonnage, and yet they make an item easily worth 4-5 tons.

ECM was balanced for TT play by the creators. PGI ported its mass, crits, but then also not only its effects, but brand new ones as well.

And you expect that to remain balanced? ECM is worth far more than 1.5 tons and 2 crits at this point.

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It doesn't "screw over weapons" it counters TWO types of weapons from working as advertised.. two, as in the number...2. And it is countered by three different items... Line of sight, and any weapon that requires aim which is like 98% of the damn weapons. Or..all except for...2. Any of which can destroy the ECM subsystem, thus rendering it useless.

Would you be okay with it if there was a piece of equipment that countered PPCs and Autocannons?

Besides that, "countering" a weapon by what you just said involved killing them with...an entirely different weapon system, all the while never actually stopping ECM from being ECM. That's not a counter. That's just playing the game with an entirely different build.

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What works wonders against an ECM light is quad ER ppc in the face, for one hit, you take out the ECM and the mech.

Yes, and tell me how that helps streaks out? Why the hell would I take streaks when two ECM being around means I still can't do anything? Why would I bother with indirect fire weapons when the "counter" is direct fire?

Do you even realize what you're saying? ECM kills LRM indirect fire. That is that. You either take TAG (which is direct fire and countered by ECM bubble, which is stupid as all hell anyways), PPCs (Which are direct fire and don't do jack squat if the enemy has more than 1 ECM), or you just do what I do, and don't take those weapon system anymore. Ever.

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This proves that it's your playstyle that needs to adapt, not a problem with ECM.

Making baseless accusations. I haven't used an LRM or SSRM on my mech since ECM came out (and even before that. I play Dragons and Hunchback ballistic variants mostly, so SSRMs and LRMs were never good fits, except in small numbers, of which ECM killed off. Thanks ECM). Why play by their game? Why equip a weapon only to cause yourself the frustration of dealing with it? By doing so, you're giving them something to justify taking ECM.

I could post a screenshot when I get home to show you my mech stable anyways. Not a single damn LRM boating mech.

Drop your assumptions and engage the actual discussion. Everyone will be better off.

Edited by Orzorn, 21 February 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Fergrim]

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PGI could stop this by stating exactly what they intend to do, but instead of that, we've only been given vague ideas.

They've told you, you've just refused to accept it. See the February 19th patch and equip PPCs.

Or the February 5th patch and destroy the ECM unit on the mech.

Or see every weapon in the game that isn't a streak 2 or LRM.

Your LRM boat isn't a pub-star anymore.. Just start getting good at aiming with ER PPCs or maybe some ballistics.

Edited by Fergrim, 21 February 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Thuzel]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

They've told you, you've just refused to accept it. See the February 19th patch and equip PPCs.

Or the February 5th patch and destroy the ECM unit on the mech.

Or see every weapon in the game that isn't a streak 2 or LRM.

Your LRM boat isn't a pub-star anymore.. Just start getting good at aiming with ER PPCs or maybe some ballistics.

And a lot of people don't accept that as satisfactory, thus all the spam.

-- Edit --

Btw, I don't even use LRM's, but I can still tell that a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that pretty much negates an entire class of weapon is a bit overpowered.

Edited by Thuzel, 21 February 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[DocBach]

Tikkamasala, on 21 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Yes, please provide quotes from the MWO-manual.




Are you talking about the slight advantage of 90 votes against ecm out of a 1000 votes in the poll at http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/? I would hardly call that a majority; it does show that there are still too many players who haven't adapted to ecm yet though.

Wow, are you intentionally dodging facts, or do you really don't know how to interpret polls?

People who find the game much less fun outnumber people who think it increased fun somewhat or very much combined.

Edited by DocBach, 21 February 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[Orzorn]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

They've told you, you've just refused to accept it. See the February 19th patch and equip PPCs.

Or the February 5th patch and destroy the ECM unit on the mech.

Or see every weapon in the game that isn't a streak 2 or LRM.

Your LRM boat isn't a pub-star anymore.. Just start getting good at aiming with ER PPCs or maybe some ballistics.

So the answer is "stop using these weapons forever, because ECM isn't going away."

EMP isn't some magical effect that remove ECM's influence. It only acknowledges how ridiculous it is. It'll get rid of ONE ECM for 5 seconds, while any other still leave the effect going. Raven's rarely come in singles, at least in 8 mans. Its almost always 2 of them. If I have enough clout to hit a Raven with ERPPCs, then I might as well put a Gauss on my mech as well and just go full direct one or two shot fire. Why the HELL would I mess around with so many counters to use a weapon system that moves at 100 m/s?

Face it man, ECM is an exclusivity field for SSRM. Tell me how one can use SSRMs when more than one ECM is around? TAG doesn't work in ECM's field. PPCs will only get rid of one of the fields.

Tell us how to use SSRMs if one don't have ECM on one's mech.

Edited by Orzorn, 21 February 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Fergrim]

Streaks, a weapon that automatically hits in any situation where it isn't hard countered, doesn't need help.

What I'm saying is that they've presented fixes and you've refused to accept them. You're entitled to think them insufficient, but the fact is that they've been presented.

This is a beta, you're supposed to report bugs, not gripes with design decisions.

ECM works, and some people like it and some people don't. PGI has announced no big plans for it because they have no big plans. Consider the fact that they simply don't agree with your position? They've obviously heard it a ton of times, as you've said, with no substantial response.

Obviously balance is ongoing, as shows with their recent PPC effect changes, but they've already moved firmly in the direction of using ECM as a cornerstone of game balance.

It's not going anywhere no matter how many hundred out of thousands upon thousands of players say they aren't fond of it. This isn't because I want it that way, it's because it IS that way. I like this game, so I adapt. My team takes counter ecm, ppc, tag.. or my LRM buddies just target mechs not covered by ECM.. Which happens frequently as light mechs move, atlases get hit with ppcs and ecm mechs generally die.

But seriously, all it does is stop you from using two types of weapons, SOME of the time. I'm not saying stop using these weapons, I'm saying use them in coordination with a team and it doesn't come up. Between your teams counter ecm, ppcs and direct fire weapons you will quickly remove the ecm from the game. Especially when it comes to Atlases now, which just eat up ppc all day, allowing for locks.

Now I can tell this matter means a lot to you and honestly, I just like enjoying to play, and I don't like complaining so I make things work (if I couldn't, I wouldn't play)

Unless, again, you're a 100% pug dropper and don't get the opportunity to communicate with your team pre / duringgame.. Then it must be very difficult to account for the many and varied ecm counters without proper communication with your team. In this case, I feel for you, and offer for you to join my lance for a few drops at

www.houseliao.com

ts3 houseliaovoice.com

Edit: I only fire my streaks at non-ecm'd mechs.. and I carry a large enough direct fire weapons bay to deal with those times when streaks can't fire. As they are generally a secondary weapon for finding holes in armor.

I can't speak for those who boat 6-8 of them as a primary.. I'd think it was a dumb idea because ECM could totally make your build irrelevant all match long.

Same reason I don't ever only load up PPCs.. because any mech hugging me makes my PPCs irrelevant due to minimum range and that doesn't even cost ONE ton. lol

Edited by Fergrim, 21 February 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

The game is designed around the application and use of ECM. The only real problems stem from:

1- the sheer number of ECM systems carried in any game (been complained about forever and is why many don't play 8v8)
2- the sheer power of the ECM system (something that is going to be continually tweeked over the weeks to come)

So, if the community doesn't want to play 8v8 cause the game is nothing but 3Ls and D-DCs, there is a problem. And if the system is so powerful that PGI has, themselves, said that they're going to continue to tweak it, then there is a problem. Arguing the extent of that problem isn't really pragmatic but offering up ideas is.

Of course, arguing otherwise does boost your post count and I guess that is something.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 21 February 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Xenosphobatic]

Orzorn, on 21 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Tell us how to use SSRMs if one don't have ECM on one's mech.

Don't. Use. Them.

SSRMS were horrifically broken previously. Now if you carry SSRMS without ECM it's more of a gamble. If you don't want to take that gamble, carry regular SRMS, or lasers. SRMS still hit ravens and lights just as well as they used to.

[Harrison Kelly]

Xeanth, on 21 February 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

[/size]

So...what you are saying is, weapons, armor and engines need to be taken out too, because they are considered mandatory on all builds that can possibly equip them..and therefore are not balanced...seems logical.

First off, your argument sucks. This is a classical case of the "Slippery Slope" logical fallacy, where you take something I said, and blow it WAY out of proportion. Nice try, but I'm not going to fall for that asinine logic.

http://www.logicalfa...slippery-slope/

Second, let me explain why making an item a must-bring on all chassis that can equip it is bad. Not "a class of items," or "a particular type of item," but AN item. It stifles build diversity, for one. Let's say there was a SXL (Small Extra Light) engine that only came in a 300 rating. It does everything an XL300 does and also weighs the same, but without the side-torso slots. Is there any reason not to run an SXL300 in a chassis that can support it? Of course not, and doing anything else is a bad choice. Running a SXL300 over an XL300 won't win you the game, but it gives you a build advantage over an identical 'Mech that has an XL300. Back to ECM, if you're not running ECM in a chassis that can support, you're probably Doing It Wrong. The other problem with ECM from a "Every 'Mech that can run it does run it" standpoint is that it limits the team composition in the sense that if your team doesn't have one of these special 'Mechs, you're at a substantial disadvantage. Can you say that about any other item, that if you don't have it, you're at a specific disadvantage that can't be made up via positioning/strategy? To avoid any spurious comparisons, saying that not bringing any Lights or Assaults gives you a disadvantage is true, but it's beyond the scope of the analogy. Talking about a single item: E.g. Gauss Rifle, PPC, LRM, AC20, jump jets, AMS, etc.

Now come back with some real logic and let's see what you have. FWIW, I play mostly direct-fire 'Mechs, and ECM doesn't affect my ability to see someone on Thermal and pop them from 800 meters. I still find its current implementation annoying and symptomatic of bad game design.

[Thuzel]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

This is a beta, you're supposed to report bugs, not gripes with design decisions.

Yes. Yes you are.

Our job is to test this game, and that includes the technical aspects as well as gameplay. Gameplay includes balance and design as well as other things.

[Orzorn]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Streaks, a weapon that automatically hits in any situation where it isn't hard countered, doesn't need help.

Hell no it doesn't. It needs a nerf. That's why ECM is ridiculous.

Think about it. Think about the exclusivity it creates, and why Ravens are so widely used. ECM lets them use Streaks, while nobody else can. Streaks are very strong (too easy to use, really. Damage could be kept if it wasn't so easy to land it. You can search my history for posts relating to SSRM balance).

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What I'm saying is that they've presented fixes and you've refused to accept them. You're entitled to think them insufficient, but the fact is that they've been presented.

And they're all steps in the right direction, but they beat around the bush and refuse to acknowledge the real issue with ECM, which is that the skill and tonnage involved in countering it are far outweighed by how simple it is to use.

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This is a beta, you're supposed to report bugs, not gripes with design decisions.

I do both, thank you very much. And no, betas are absolutely about player reception. Closed beta saw many changes because of player feedback.

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Unless, again, you're a 100% pug dropper.. Then it must be very difficult to account for the many and varied ecm counters without proper communication with your team. In this case, I feel for you, and offer for you to join my lance for a few drops at

I'm the commander of my corp. I rarely single man drop.

Xenosphobatic, on 21 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Don't. Use. Them.

SSRMS were horrifically broken previously. Now if you carry SSRMS without ECM it's more of a gamble. If you don't want to take that gamble, carry regular SRMS, or lasers. SRMS still hit ravens and lights just as well as they used to.

I never used them anyways.

But if SSRMs are "horrifically broken previously", how is that any good now that ECM users are the only ones able to effectively carry them?

Answer: Its not good.

Edit: Misread one quote.

Edited by Orzorn, 21 February 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Inertiaman]

Vassago Rain, on 21 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I like your tears, and when I see gold, I always counter-post. It brings more tears, and more nonsense.

Change the record to one that looks at an argument first and forms opinions second. Doing it the other way around makes you look like a cretin.

[Wildstreak]

ECM is just too good as implemented.

[Vassago Rain]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Corrected the other mistake in there. Pet peeve also!



What do you mean was never created? It's a feature, an item, a dynamic in a game created by PGI (BASED on the mechwarrior franchise which is BASED on the tabletop) created by PGI to do exactly what it does.

It doesn't "screw over weapons" it counters TWO types of weapons from working as advertised.. two, as in the number...2. And it is countered by three different items... Line of sight, and any weapon that requires aim which is like 98% of the damn weapons. Or..all except for...2. Any of which can destroy the ECM subsystem, thus rendering it useless.

What works wonders against an ECM light is quad ER ppc in the face, for one hit, you take out the ECM and the mech. Or large lasers, or a bank of mediums, or srm 6's, or AC10s.. or AC20s.. or PPCs.. the ever popular ER PPC.. oh and as always, the gauss rifle and UAC 5..

They all hard-counter ECM if you can aim.

This proves that it's your playstyle that needs to adapt, not a problem with ECM.

Although, it must be very frustrating for you, holding out hope every day that they might fulfill this fantasy. Must be difficult to even enjoy playing when the ECM fix you're dreaming of iis nowhere to be found.

Let her go man. Let her go. And just learn to play the ecm game as it is or do something you enjoy more. Maybe read books? Personally I've been enjoying "The Walking Dead" graphic novel. And the news, bbc.co.uk is always a good read, along with theguardian.co.uk

I like you.