135 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Tikkamasala, on 21 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Those 171 votes are not undecided, they are okay with ECM. 54.2% against ECM or 84 more votes out of 1008 votes against ECM (just as i said).

171 indifferent opinions neither positive or negative. They don't care either way. That is not liking OR disliking and thus excluded from the pole. 15% undecided.

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I feel indifferent about the ECM feature

Indifferent:

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Adjective

• Having no particular interest or sympathy; unconcerned: "indifferent to foreign affairs".
  
• Neither good nor bad; mediocre: "attempts to distinguish between good, bad, and indifferent work".

by Doc

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 February 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Kaldor]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

There are 26 weapon systems in MechWarrior. ECM affects all LRMs and SSRM. That's 5 weapon systems or 19.2% of all weapon systems. Which dramatically lowers your 98% to 78.8% of the weapons are unaffected. one fifth of the MWO weapons are affected by 1.5 tons of equipment. Would you like to compare the tonnage of equipment that is too?

Dont forget how it effects Artemis and NARC. (not that anyone in their right mind runs NARC) I cant remember if it effects BAP though.

[Fergrim]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

There are 26 weapon systems in MechWarrior. ECM affects all LRMs and SSRM. That's 5 weapon systems or 19.2% of all weapon systems. Which dramatically lowers your 98% to 78.8% of the weapons are unaffected. one fifth of the MWO weapons are affected by 1.5 tons of equipment. Would you like to compare the tonnage of equipment that is too?

Yes, do the tonnage thing. I didn't understand that last sentence, I think it ends in a preposition. But if you're willing to calculate things for me, I'd appreciate the time spent on my behalf.

Second, so you're saying..

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, while nothing counters bap except a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment... Sounds like it could use a buff. ;]

And while we're doing erroneous math instead of simply using a well organized team or just not using a lock-on missile boat without support from said team...

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, along with friendly ecm, sensor boost and tag. Now out of about 60 total variants (assuming the total number of current chassis and x 4 variants each, for laziness and even numbers sake) Five of them can carry ecm. If my gorilla math is right, that's 8%.

78.8% of weapons are a hard counter to ecm, which is carried by only 8% of the total possible variants.

And it doesn't counter 100% of the lock-on missile varieties... Not when it's tagged, not when it's counter ecm'd, and as I'm sure you've noticed.. every team carries a bit of ecm..

Which then adds a strategic layer to the battle in the form of properly applying a well organized team, tag, counter-ecm, ppcs (SO effective against ecm atlases it's ridiculous) and the other 78.8% of the weapons in the game to take care of a light mech in whichever way is deemed most effective.

Even if you solo drop, you're still playing a team game, if you're prevented from taking full advantage of your teams resources, that isn't ecm's fault. I understand it's difficult to organize a pug around anything, but something as simple as "crap, get that ecm raven" is usually pretty doable.

[Rhent]

General Taskeen, on 21 February 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pretty sure PGI said they want to include things in this game like TT. But what they programmed in contradicts that since its replica w/ features that it didn't have. It does more, and for people that like TT so much shouldn't they be advocating a closer representation of something like over half of the things in the game so far?

The ECM should itself be a soft item for its weight/crit space, with its stated bonuses. If people want an pseudo-SSRM counter, then ask for Angel ECM to put into the game, although it will probably be able to bounce back any weapon fired at it to the person who fired it as a "feature." (The hard counter to Angel ECM will be a Light Saber so you can bounce your returned shots back)

Bring ECM closer to its counter-part from TT, while also reducing 100% tracking of missile systems by some means.

ECM as it stands now is fine IF there was a place for someone to aim at to remove it. Legging a mech or Coring a mech carrying ECM is not a realistic strategy to remove one weapon system because you are in effect killing the mech then.

When fighting multiple targets, I will remove the biggest weapon system first and then move to the next easiest weapon system to remove (IOW's I don't allow AC/20 or SRM6 cats to destroy me unchecked however if I remove their thread I will switch to other more threatening mechs). Simply put, you don't have that option with ECM. Either you kill the ECM mech or ECM stands. There is no inbetween, unless you have a PPC (which I do) and are fighting a DC. You will not get a PPC blast on a Raven running 142KPH, unless the Raven 3L pilot is a complete *****.

[Orzorn]

Kaldor, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Dont forget how it effects Artemis and NARC. (not that anyone in their right mind runs NARC) I cant remember if it effects BAP though.

It does.

[Tikkamasala]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

ie, no opinion, or interest in the poll, ie not in support or opposition, ie you can't add them to the people who like ECM statistics anymore than I can add them to the people who have a negative response to ECM.

If they had no interest in the poll, why did they click on the thread and vote? Besides i never added them to the i-like-ecm-crowd; read my posts again.

[Rhent]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yes, do the tonnage thing. I didn't understand that last sentence, I think it ends in a preposition. But if you're willing to calculate things for me, I'd appreciate the time spent on my behalf.

Second, so you're saying..

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, while nothing counters bap except a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment... Sounds like it could use a buff. ;]

And while we're doing erroneous math instead of simply using a well organized team or just not using a lock-on missile boat without support from said team...

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, along with friendly ecm, sensor boost and tag. Now out of about 60 total variants (assuming the total number of current chassis and x 4 variants each, for laziness and even numbers sake) Five of them can carry ecm. If my gorilla math is right, that's 8%.

78.8% of weapons are a hard counter to ecm, which is carried by only 8% of the total possible variants.

And it doesn't counter 100% of the lock-on missile varieties... Not when it's tagged, not when it's counter ecm'd, and as I'm sure you've noticed.. every team carries a bit of ecm..

Which then adds a strategic layer to the battle in the form of properly applying a well organized team, tag, counter-ecm, ppcs (SO effective against ecm atlases it's ridiculous) and the other 78.8% of the weapons in the game to take care of a light mech in whichever way is deemed most effective.

Even if you solo drop, you're still playing a team game, if you're prevented from taking full advantage of your teams resources, that isn't ecm's fault. I understand it's difficult to organize a pug around anything, but something as simple as "crap, get that ecm raven" is usually pretty doable.

Your logic is flawed, I mean badly flawed.
Counter: a statement or action made to refute, oppose, or nullify another statement or action.

All weapon systems in effect counter all other weapon systems if we go by your logic. ECM effectively counters Streaks and LRM's by preventing them from working. The only way a Large Laser is going to prevent ECM from working is by destroying the mech. The only effective counter to ECM in the game
1st) Bring more ECM to the fight than your opponent (hence why you see 8 man ECM fests, they have no choice)
2nd) Destroy the ECM using mech

Edited by Rhent, 21 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Orzorn]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yes, do the tonnage thing. I didn't understand that last sentence, I think it ends in a preposition. But if you're willing to calculate things for me, I'd appreciate the time spent on my behalf.

Second, so you're saying..

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, while nothing counters bap except a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment... Sounds like it could use a buff. ;]

Oh come on now. That's tantamount to saying that if there was a 1000 damage, 10 ton weapon in the game that the "counter" is to kill it. That's just being obtuse. The issue is how the item effects the metagame. Killing it won't stop it from preventing other mechs from taking SSRMs. I'm not going to take those systems and then hope that the ECM mech dies. Chances are it'll have killed me before I could have ever even used those weapons, particularly if I was a light mech. They hunt for people to attack that use systems like that, since they know what ECM does.

[Tikkamasala]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 February 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

171 indifferent opinions neither positive or negative. They don't care either way. That is not liking OR disliking and thus excluded from the pole. 15% undecided.

Why would you exclude votes from the poll? All it does is skew the result the way you want to read it...

[Trauglodyte]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yes, do the tonnage thing. I didn't understand that last sentence, I think it ends in a preposition. But if you're willing to calculate things for me, I'd appreciate the time spent on my behalf.

Second, so you're saying..

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, while nothing counters bap except a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment... Sounds like it could use a buff. ;]

And while we're doing erroneous math instead of simply using a well organized team or just not using a lock-on missile boat without support from said team...

78.8% of weapons counter ecm, along with friendly ecm, sensor boost and tag. Now out of about 60 total variants (assuming the total number of current chassis and x 4 variants each, for laziness and even numbers sake) Five of them can carry ecm. If my gorilla math is right, that's 8%.

78.8% of weapons are a hard counter to ecm, which is carried by only 8% of the total possible variants.

And it doesn't counter 100% of the lock-on missile varieties... Not when it's tagged, not when it's counter ecm'd, and as I'm sure you've noticed.. every team carries a bit of ecm..

Which then adds a strategic layer to the battle in the form of properly applying a well organized team, tag, counter-ecm, ppcs (SO effective against ecm atlases it's ridiculous) and the other 78.8% of the weapons in the game to take care of a light mech in whichever way is deemed most effective.

Even if you solo drop, you're still playing a team game, if you're prevented from taking full advantage of your teams resources, that isn't ecm's fault. I understand it's difficult to organize a pug around anything, but something as simple as "crap, get that ecm raven" is usually pretty doable.

Now you're just arguing to argue for the sake of being a good. If I spend 10 tons and 5 slots on an LRM20 plus another ton and slot for Artemis plus another 4 tons and slots for ammo (15 total tons and 10 slots) just to have it completely negated by someone who spent 1.5 tons and 2 slots on a piece of equipment that doesn't require a weapon hartpoint, something is wrong. If I am required to either spend an energy slot on another piece of equipment just so the prior 15 tons/10 slots can be utilized OR have someone else on my team do it, something is wrong.

This isn't a lrn2ply issue and it isn't something that teamwork should be reliant upon because ECM isn't restricted. By requiring TAG or another ECM while allowing 8, or 12 later on, people to carry ECM, you're creating an environment similar to the 70s/80s Cold War nuclear missile buildup. It never stops and it never ends well.

[Orzorn]

Tikkamasala, on 21 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

If they had no interest in the poll, why did they click on the thread and vote? Besides i never added them to the i-like-ecm-crowd; read my posts again.

A good, unbiased poll should include a neutral option so people do not feel forced to vote one way or the other. Otherwise half the posts in the thread are "I didn't vote because blah blah".

[Vassago Rain]

DocBach, on 21 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

No personal attacks, just general concern. You just said everything you do is inspired by making other people angry. That's a sign and symptom of a sick psyche, and I hope you get help with it soon buddy. We're all rooting for you.

No, those are quite clearly personal attacks, and you're acting like a child. On the internet.

Please crawl back to where you came from, and take the ECM discussion with you. It's been explained why it's not an issue. Repeatedly. PGI have made no attempts to 'fix' it, because there's nothing to fix. It puts a blanket on that prevents lock, and hides you at range. That's what it's for. Now you have more of the tool sthey were telling us would go in to act as counters to ECM at your disposal.

The biggest one is PPC EMP effects.

[Rhent]

Trauglodyte, on 21 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Now you're just arguing to argue for the sake of being a good. If I spend 10 tons and 5 slots on an LRM20 plus another ton and slot for Artemis plus another 4 tons and slots for ammo (15 total tons and 10 slots) just to have it completely negated by someone who spent 1.5 tons and 2 slots on a piece of equipment that doesn't require a weapon hartpoint, something is wrong. If I am required to either spend an energy slot on another piece of equipment just so the prior 15 tons/10 slots can be utilized OR have someone else on my team do it, something is wrong.

This isn't a lrn2ply issue and it isn't something that teamwork should be reliant upon because ECM isn't restricted. By requiring TAG or another ECM while allowing 8, or 12 later on, people to carry ECM, you're creating an environment similar to the 70s/80s Cold War nuclear missile buildup. It never stops and it never ends well.

You should see my LRM 50 + Tag + ERPPC + Extended Sensor Range + BAP LRM boat. The crap is hilarious at this point. I need 3 pieces of equipment to fire my main weapon system, and even then no guarantee I will be allowed to fire, excluding the 160M minimum range also placed on LRM's.

[Orzorn]

Rhent, on 21 February 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

You should see my LRM 50 + Tag + ERPPC + Extended Sensor Range + BAP LRM boat. The crap is hilarious at this point. I need 3 pieces of equipment to fire my main weapon system, and even then no guarantee I will be allowed to fire, excluding the 160M minimum range also placed on LRM's.

Not sure if you knew, but BAP doesn't help missiles, actually. It doesn't increase lock speed nor help against ECM last I heard.

Also, its 180 min range.

[General Taskeen]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Which then adds a strategic layer to the battle in the form of properly applying a well organized team, tag, counter-ecm, ppcs (SO effective against ecm atlases it's ridiculous) and the other 78.8% of the weapons in the game to take care of a light mech in whichever way is deemed most effective.

Since Trial Mechs are in the game... I think balance starts there. That is the fundamental thing that is often overlooked, being a free-to-play game. Its tough to get new players into this game with such balancing measures.

Mech Warrior may imply victory through organized team work, having specific equipment, etc. That is not a luxury a Trial Mech has. Yeah, people can save for their C-Bills, but they shouldn't have to have a specific piece of equipment to contribute or hard counter.

Edited by General Taskeen, 21 February 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fergrim, on 21 February 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yes, do the tonnage thing. I didn't understand that last sentence, I think it ends in a preposition. But if you're willing to calculate things for me, I'd appreciate the time spent on my behalf.

25.5 tons(21.6% of all weapons) affected by 1.5 tons of equipment.

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Second, so you're saying..


78.8% of weapons counter ecm, while nothing counters bap except a single piece of 1.5 ton equipment... Sounds like it could use a buff. ;]

Yes now how would you feel if that 1.5 tons of equipment affected Ballistics or energy weapons instead of LRMs?

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And while we're doing erroneous math instead of simply using a well organized team or just not using a lock-on missile boat without support from said team...

and...?

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78.8% of weapons counter ecm, along with friendly ecm, sensor boost and tag. Now out of about 60 total variants (assuming the total number of current chassis and x 4 variants each, for laziness and even numbers sake) Five of them can carry ecm. If my gorilla math is right, that's 8%.


78.8% of weapons are a hard counter to ecm, which is carried by only 8% of the total possible variants.

now that 8% of the Mech populace becomes roughly 40%-50% of a drops team (2 raven, 1 Cicada & 1 D-DC)

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And it doesn't counter 100% of the lock-on missile varieties... Not when it's tagged, not when it's counter ecm'd, and as I'm sure you've noticed.. every team carries a bit of ecm..

I said affects not counters. TAG can be broken on an ECM carrier and the more feared carriers can do it rather easily thanks to speed, So the D-DC is the only mech that TAG is useful against.

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Which then adds a strategic layer to the battle in the form of properly applying a well organized team, tag, counter-ecm, ppcs (SO effective against ecm atlases it's ridiculous) and the other 78.8% of the weapons in the game to take care of a light mech in whichever way is deemed most effective.

Which is a small percentage of the player base.

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Even if you solo drop, you're still playing a team game, if you're prevented from taking full advantage of your teams resources, that isn't ecm's fault. I understand it's difficult to organize a pug around anything, but something as simple as "crap, get that ecm raven" is usually pretty doable.

you pose some good arguments but that still doesn't reduce teh effect 1.5 tons has on the game.

Yes ECM can be worked around. I myself do it. But the reduction in missiles usefulness by ECM is over the top. Specially since teh larger and more powerful Cousin don't negate SSRMs it just dumbs them down. ECM is over powered, it can be defeated, but that still does not change the impact it has.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 21 February 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

The one thing that would, in my opinion, make ECM in a state where it would be acceptable is if the blocking of detection and lock on beyond the maximum effective range of the equipment is removed. No other piece of gear has full effectiveness outside it's range of effectiveness, yet it seems ECM gets this because some Dev wanted a power trip.

If they want ECM to block lock-on's within it's 180-meter range, then that could be accepted. But having it do so when the other unit is beyond the range the ECM can effect anything is illogical. That's -why- it has an effective range.

This aspect is, in my opinion, the single largest imbalancing aspect of ECM, and is what has to go if ECM is going to be acceptable at all. As long as it is in, ECM is unacceptable because it breaks game logic and has an effect when it should not.

[Bguk]

ECM will never be in a state where everyone can live with it. Nothing will ever be in a state where everyone can live with it. Even if it were free money given to players some would scream why so little.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tikkamasala, on 21 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Why would you exclude votes from the poll? All it does is skew the result the way you want to read it...

if the there are 45% in favor 45% against 10% don't care. Who has the greater percentage? that 10% that doesn't care Can be leaning 5% for 5% against. You cannot give either side the undecided votes because they haven't made a choice. That's why you notate the undecided and factor them out of the equation.

[sycocys]

Here's a thought that's been mentioned before - only allow 1 ecm per team.