189 replies to this topic

[Commander Kobold]

-Tag is countered by ECM(and trying to tag a raven/commando is an unecesary greivance)
-PPCs only disrupt an ECM carrier (if you can hit it) for 4-5 seconds which is barely enough time to have the missles on their way let alone hit their target)
-Death way to go captain obvious, I'm sure none of us knew that.
-ECM countering itself is only a working fix if A} you have more ECM than the other team. B} the matchmaker even puts someone with ECM on your team

ECM is still un balanced there little to no valid argument about it.

[Death Weasel]

IFF
Identification Friend Foe
A radio signal transmitted constantly by a vehicle to notify those with the proper equipment that the vehicle is either an ally or a threat.
IRL almost every aircraft transmits an IFF signal whenever there is power in the aircraft.
Mostly used by the military forces of the world as well as private aircraft.
This signal is what allows the red and blue arrows above mechs on the field.

Hope this helps.
I didn't see anyone else answering that part of your questions.

Quite honestly I don't normally get past the first page of ECM posts, and I didn't read everything that was posted, but I didn't see anyone that actually said anything about IFF.

Edited by Panzershriek, 25 February 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

Fiachdubh, on 25 February 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

In the canon only certain mechs are able to take ECM. This gives a useful role to some mechs that otherwise would be pointless. That is not to say that PGI should always stick rigidly to canon because it is not always appropriate but I think in this case ECM and in the future other relevent equipment should be confined to specific chassis to make them more useful.
The whole point of the Raven was that it was built around ECM and BAP, it is its reason for existing.

PGI already threw canon to the wind with this garbage ECM.

[Commander Kobold]

Tetrabor, on 25 February 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

How to fix ECM, Ravens, and Pretty Babys:

Bring back Tripping.

Bad ECM Raven pilots trip over big mechs then get shot up on the ground. Centurions and Pretty Baby get a new role of running over lights. Everyone is happy.

pretty baby has a purpose in that it's fast, which only really matters on alpine (stalkers and atlai can't keep up and slow the group down,unless the atlas/atlai have ECM then everyone likes to stick in the OP LRM negation field)

[Fiachdubh]

Omni 13, on 25 February 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

PGI already threw canon to the wind with this garbage ECM.

Canon as in the fiction or the TT rules? I do not remember much about ECM in the fiction (if there is even much mention of it) but with TT it was impossible to hide mechs from your opponent (obviously sitting across the table from you) so ECM had to be given a different role. It is one of the areas where I think TT rules are irrelevant to this game. As far as I remember ECM and BAP in MW4 and MC worked in a similar capacity to its current role in MWO.

I have never had the oppertunity to play TT advanced enough to use ECM so not entirely clear on how it worked (effected missile locks?) so I would be interested to know.

Streaks I never used in TT either but I believe they are not a garunteed hit every time you use them but they only use ammo if you role a hit, if you missed the game considers it a fail to lock on and fire in the first place?

Maybe they could work on streaks in that case, I do not care as they are a girly toy weapon for people who miss their aimbots.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 25 February 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Omni 13, on 25 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

-Tag is countered by ECM(and trying to tag a raven/commando is an unecesary greivance)
-PPCs only disrupt an ECM carrier (if you can hit it) for 4-5 seconds which is barely enough time to have the missles on their way let alone hit their target)
-Death way to go captain obvious, I'm sure none of us knew that.
-ECM countering itself is only a working fix if A} you have more ECM than the other team. B} the matchmaker even puts someone with ECM on your team

ECM is still un balanced there little to no valid argument about it.

Tag is countered by ECM(and trying to tag a raven/commando is an unecesary greivance)

Sorry you cant aim, I can hit them w tag.

-PPCs only disrupt an ECM carrier (if you can hit it) for 4-5 seconds which is barely enough time to have the missles on their way let alone hit their target)

Sorry you cant do damage sans LRMs.

-Death way to go captain obvious, I'm sure none of us knew that.

Thats my way of saying, if you kill them, their ecm turns off, self explanatory but effective, so it makes the list.

-ECM countering itself is only a working fix if A} you have more ECM than the other team. B} the matchmaker even puts someone with ECM on your team

ECM can counter itself, but on my DDC, my best counter is heat vision and the ability to aim my non-lrm weapons.
(This last answer actually combines the above 3, and are all beyond your skill apparently, since you seem to largely ignore their potential successfullness.)

I hope you play mechs better than you argue, but i doubt it, as you said you cant even tag a leght mech w a tag that sweeps like a 750 M long light saber. Besides, you can hurt them without LRMs so wheres the issue there. Lasers ballistics and SRMs al still work, and if you damage him enough you can even knock it out, but either way once hes dead, its impact dies too.

Sidenote: I like you all using ecm, the radar jamming effect gives me a 2-10 second heads up your in teh neighborhood as you try to sneak up on me. Was on ice city today and passing the cave going to E5 my radar jammed, then it came back. I held back and told the team. 1 minute later 5 mech soured out, one or 2 had ecm, we were ready, and they got annihalated.

Keep using ECM, imho, it can actually add some detriments for the carrier as well as devoting two more tons to trickery, taht i have devoted to having a higher dps w 2 more DHSs.

See you on the field. o7

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 25 February 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Fiachdubh, on 25 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

As far as I remember ECM and BAP in MW4 and MC worked in a similar capacity to its current role in MWO.

Lol, no. In MW4 ECM made missile lock on to you faster to offset the fact that it severely reduced the range at which you appeared on radar. Since everyone was always detected even without LOS unless you turned off your own radar this was a relatively well balanced system.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Sorry you cant aim, I can hit them w tag.

Not a raven 3L that's running from cover to cover, which is incredibly abundant on every map except Alpine.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Sorry you cant do damage sans LRMs.

Sorry you're such a condescending god among men with magical lag-shield defeating aim-skills.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Thats my way of saying, if you kill them, their ecm turns off, self explanatory but effective, so it makes the list.

The point of this game is to kill the enemy mech. If you've killed the mech, you've negated any need to deal with his equipment. It's like saying winning the game is the way to deal with having one less person on your team.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

ECM can counter itself, but on my DDC, my best counter is heat vision and the ability to aim my non-lrm weapons.
(This last answer actually combines the above 3, and are all beyond your skill apparently, since you seem to largely ignore their potential successfullness.)

That's not a counter. You're not helping your team. You're not negating the affect their equipment is having. Your'e not giving yourself the opportunity to use LRMs, which should be an opportunity that every pilot has if they so choose and are willing to expend effort equal to that of other weapons.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

I hope you play mechs better than you argue, but i doubt it, as you said you cant even tag a leght mech w a tag that sweeps like a 750 M long light saber. Besides, you can hurt them without LRMs so wheres the issue there. Lasers ballistics and SRMs al still work, and if you damage him enough you can even knock it out, but either way once hes dead, its impact dies too.

Again, condescension. Lasers are incredibly difficult to deal extensive damage to lights with. That's why pulse lasers have any advantage despite worse Damage/ton, Damage/ton-second, range, and heat/second. Also, there should be some form of indirect fire weapon in this game. Yes, LRMs do far too much damage. Yes, SSRMs hit CT too often and lock too easily. That does not make ECM balanced. That just makes those weapons and ECM poorly designed.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Sidenote: I like you all using ecm, the radar jamming effect gives me a 2-10 second heads up your in teh neighborhood as you try to sneak up on me. Was on ice city today and passing the cave going to E5 my radar jammed, then it came back. I held back and told the team. 1 minute later 5 mech soured out, one or 2 had ecm, we were ready, and they got annihalated.

Keep using ECM, imho, it can actually add some detriments for the carrier as well as devoting two more tons to trickery, taht i have devoted to having a higher dps w 2 more DHSs.

My turn to be condescending. If you actually needed that heads-up then clearly you're a part of a bad team and are bad at ascertaining situational awareness. You can generally hear an enemy mech as soon as you would be affected by their ECM. Also, you should be using good vantage points and avoiding choke paths where you can be cornered without having a teammate to watch your back. And please, stop using the fallacy of anecdote. It shouldn't ever contribute anything to reasoned argument.

Also, there literally is no disadvantage except the 2 tons of weight it takes up. That's really nothing, even when you consider something as weight efficient as DHS.

[Fiachdubh]

p4g3m4s7r, on 25 February 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Lol, no. In MW4 ECM made missile lock on to you faster to offset the fact that it severely reduced the range at which you appeared on radar. Since everyone was always detected even without LOS unless you turned off your own radar this was a relatively well balanced system.

Ah yes I remember, I do miss the ability to go passive. Imagine a passive Raven, imagine the shivers going up the spines of mechwarriors everywhere at that thought.

*shivers*

Edited by Fiachdubh, 25 February 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[Rakashan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Tag is countered by ECM(and trying to tag a raven/commando is an unecesary greivance)

Sorry you cant aim, I can hit them w tag.

It's not just that it is hard to hit someone with Tag. To hit them with Tag and keep it on them, I can't lead them with non-laser weapons. To hit them with Tag I have to maintain LoS to them, something that ECM does not have to do. And yet Tag does nothing to counter IFF shut-down. It does nothing to counter the targeting lockout which deprives me of the information about their loadout and the state of their armor. And if I am within 180m it does nothing, period. I cannot even benefit from my own TAG if I am within 180m of *ANY* ECM mech.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

-PPCs only disrupt an ECM carrier (if you can hit it) for 4-5 seconds which is barely enough time to have the missles on their way let alone hit their target)

Sorry you cant do damage sans LRMs.

And since the recycle time on PPCs is more than 2.5 seconds I cannot knock out the ECM on a target mech and his wingman at the same time so I cannot remove the ECM bubble at all against competent players. Even when I can, unless the person firing missiles is inside 150m, the time to lock on plus flight time is longer than the ECM is disrupted.

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

-ECM countering itself is only a working fix if A} you have more ECM than the other team. B} the matchmaker even puts someone with ECM on your team

ECM can counter itself, but on my DDC, my best counter is heat vision and the ability to aim my non-lrm weapons.
(This last answer actually combines the above 3, and are all beyond your skill apparently, since you seem to largely ignore their potential successfullness.)

Calling ECM balanced because it counters itself is asinine for obvious reasons.

The point of some people (not necessarily all, but some) is that good game design does not include something which is its own best counter. ECM is more effective as a countermeasure than anything else in its cost range. It is easier to use than anything else in its cost range. The fact that some people can walk a tightrope does not make it easy or balanced . ECM is not a good design as it stands today and will not be until it is something that is not reflexively used on every chassis that can mount it by nearly the entire playing population.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Fiachdubh, on 25 February 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Ah yes I remember, I do miss the ability to go passive. Imagine a passive Raven, imagine the shivers going up the spines of mechwarriors everywhere at that thought.

*shivers*

I'm glad someone else actually did that. Going passive would actually be really neat and should probably require a module if implemented in this game. You'd basically be undergoing self-imposed ECM. I did this all the time with a shadowcat that had an LBX 20. It was boss

[SlXSlXSlX]

Rak, are you asserting a mech that is not tagged cannot be damaged?

Rak, are you asserting you cannot damage a mech with ecm active???

Rak are you telling me the other 15 + weapons in the game ECM does not negate cannot hurt the mech carring ecm???

p4g3m4s7r, on 25 February 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

My turn to be condescending. If you actually needed that heads-up then clearly you're a part of a bad team and are bad at ascertaining situational awareness. You can generally hear an enemy mech as soon as you would be affected by their ECM. Also, you should be using good vantage points and avoiding choke paths where you can be cornered without having a teammate to watch your back. And please, stop using the fallacy of anecdote. It shouldn't ever contribute anything to reasoned argument.

Also, there literally is no disadvantage except the 2 tons of weight it takes up. That's really nothing, even when you consider something as weight efficient as DHS.

Never said the team was pro. It is hard to say I do not have xvm for mwo yet. I can tell you said ecm mech never came out, he hung in there for a bit before his group massed, and they came out en mass. I saw the radar distortion effect, and it tipped me off, so I relayed it to my mates/ No one but me said a word, and that is pretty typical.

And I guess your saying 2 more DHS's offers no advantage? I hope I catch you on the field. Ill be the DDC running without ECM. When we go toe to toe, you will go down. My dps/cooling combo cannot be matched carrying even 2 more tons that are not 1. armor 2. DHS's, or 3. a deadlier array of weapons. (Mines ac20/3 srm 6/ 2 LL, w max armor, and a cooling of 133). Whats your DDC packin? Not at al saying im pro, but I do think I have pretty good mechlab skillls. Heck, the lab is my fav. part of the game.

However, if you can focus fire better maybe you can core me first. I'd like to find out. I am not pro, but assertng your atlas w 2 tons less of fighting equipment can overpower mine w 2 tons more, is not a strong argument.

[Doc Holliday]

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Rak, are you asserting a mech that is not tagged cannot be damaged?

Rak, are you asserting you cannot damage a mech with ecm active???

Rak are you telling me the other 15 + weapons in the game ECM does not negate cannot hurt the mech carring ecm???

[Strum Wealh]

Fiachdubh, on 25 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Canon as in the fiction or the TT rules? I do not remember much about ECM in the fiction (if there is even much mention of it) but with TT it was impossible to hide mechs from your opponent (obviously sitting across the table from you) so ECM had to be given a different role. It is one of the areas where I think TT rules are irrelevant to this game. As far as I remember ECM and BAP in MW4 and MC worked in a similar capacity to its current role in MWO.

I have never had the oppertunity to play TT advanced enough to use ECM so not entirely clear on how it worked (effected missile locks?) so I would be interested to know.

Streaks I never used in TT either but I believe they are not a garunteed hit every time you use them but they only use ammo if you role a hit, if you missed the game considers it a fail to lock on and fire in the first place?

Maybe they could work on streaks in that case, I do not care as they are a girly toy weapon for people who miss their aimbots.

The Guardian and its effects were mentioned and described in the novel Main Event, by James D. Long.

Quote

"Command One, this is Pursuit Two. Two inbound blips on an intersect course. Either they've got damn fast 'Mechs or a pair of hovercraft."
"Confirmed, Pursuit Two. Switch to Guardian." Rose watched the long-range scanner become suddenly cloudy as Ajax activated the Guardian electronic countermeasure suite. The ECM system was designed to provide a cloud of electromagnetic disturbance that would make targeting the mercenaries virtually impossible until the Clans got to close range. It was the perfect counter to the Clans' longer ranges. As long as the enemy didn't have a line of sight, they would have a difficult time tracking the Thorns inside the cloud. Of course, the cloud itself was very easy to spot.
Under the umbrella of the Guardian the Black Thorns picked up the pace. Rose switched to the short-range scanner because the long-range version was effectively blind while the Guardian was engaged.

-----

"Keep up the good work, Pursuit One. Now confirm the kill and let's get out of here. Pursuit Two, Guardian off."
Rose switched back to long-range scan as the mercenaries went deeper into the city. Gradually, offices replaced factories and the lighting improved. Rose knew that the Clans were fully aware of his approach. Panicked civilians were reacting to media reports of the first encounter, sending most away from the battle zone, but others toward it. Traffic became increasingly congested, forcing the mercenaries to divert from their original path three separate times.

(The relevant excerpts are viewable here.)

It was also mentioned in Initiation to War, by Robert N. Charrette.

Quote

Making sure that Trahn's Raven had him under its electronic screen, Kelly found himself a long fire lane through the streets of Hinchuan. He picked a spot that put his missiles at maximum effective range. He'd be in range for the Pillager's intimidating gauss weapons, but the Raven's Guardian suite ought to shift the odds in his favor. It wouldn't matter much, he told himself, he wasn't intending a duel. All he wanted to do was get out there long enough to send ten LRMs downrange. He just needed to distract Crawford.

-----

The far shore would be little better than a practice firing range for the Pillager. Worse, any Vigilante 'Mech on the far bank would likely be outside the Raven's protective screen. If the Raven were over there, the reciprocal would apply to anyone remaining on the Hinchuan bank.
"If Trahn can cross somewhere down the canal, I could jump over anywhere," JJ suggested. "Her Guardian suite will give us the best cover we can get over there and we'll be in flanking position."
"The canal itself is better cover," Sam said.
"It isn't very deep," Kelly pointed out. It was three to four meters mostly, deep enough for the barges that traversed it, but barely more than waist deep to the light 'Mechs. "It's not enough for a submerged approach."
"We don't need it to be," Sam stated. "The banks give us another couple of meters. The Commandos can crouch, and moving along the near embankment, we won't be seen. Better still we might be able to stay within reach of Trahn's Guardian suite.

(The relevant excerpts are viewable here.)

It's also mentioned in passing in some of the other BattleTech novels, including Prince of Havoc, The Dying Time, Endgame, Call of Duty (which predates the video game franchise of the same name by two years! ), and Flashpoint.

The TT gameplay rules didn't let ECM affect missiles (outside of the specific case of Angel ECM being able to make successfully locked-and-fired Streak missiles that flew through its bubble "go dumb" mid-flight), but it did allow ECM to affect sensors (which was a significant part of the double-blind rules found in the Tactical Operations rulebook).

What happened for MWO was that the Devs made missiles depend on data from the sensors in order to locate targets and achieve locks (a dependency which, really, makes sense and is intuitive, yes?), and ported over an approximation of the canon sensor-affecting rules.
The problem is, of course, that with ECM jamming the sensors and the missiles dependent on the sensors, ECM thus affects the usability of the missiles in a manner that, while logical, technically stands in opposition to the TT rules.
Moreover, the Devs maintained ECM's line-of-sight effects (by itself, fully canon and part of the basic rules from the core rulebook, Total Warfare), which are normally not in effect when using the double-blind rules and the sensor-affecting rules - thus, MWO's ECM is able to affect potential locks attempted from outside of its 180-meter bubble.

As far as Streaks go, their gameplay rules (TotWar, pg. 138) and fluff (TechManual, pg. 230) dictated that they only fired when fully locked (regardless of whether ECM of any stripe was present), and when they did fire all of the missiles hit (except when and only when successfully fired within or into an Angel ECM field (TacOps, pg. 279)).
As it happens, the Streak gameplay rules also stipulated that the lock was broken when the salvo fired, thus necessitating having to re-lock after each firing - an aspect the Devs have evidently decided to not (yet?) adopt for their implementation.
With last November's adjustment to have Streaks target arm and leg joints (described by the Lead Developer here), Streaks are (aside from not needing to be re-locked after each salvo) in and of themselves largely working as they should be, no?

[SlXSlXSlX]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Well leave that up to the community to decide doc. Don't be too hard on yourself.

PS hows you tantrum "abstainment from playing mwo till ecm is gone" crusade fairing?

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 25 February 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Rakashan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Rak, are you asserting a mech that is not tagged cannot be damaged?

Rak, are you asserting you cannot damage a mech with ecm active???

Rak are you telling me the other 15 + weapons in the game ECM does not negate cannot hurt the mech carring ecm???

No, not at all. What I am saying is that ECM is not balanced. There's a huge difference.

I am saying that for what I pay for TAG and what I pay for ECM I should get the same return, you know... BALANCE. Instead ECM is a hard counter to NARC, a hard counter to BAP and a soft counter to TAG. TAG is a soft counter to ECM. ECM is a hard counter to all missiles. TAG is a benefit to the missiles. This is not balanced as it is. ECM requires that I do nothing but put it on my mech. TAG requires that I get line of sight, maintain line of sight and use another weapon (or have a teammate use that weapon). So ECM is much easier to use as well... This is not balanced.

As I said. Some people can walk tightropes. That does not make it easy, that does not make it balanced. That makes it possible. These are hugely different things.

[Ialti]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

ECM does counter ecm, thats why it is on that list. Good news its only 2 lbs, and costs a pittance.

What, are we driving Tonka Trucks now?

[SlXSlXSlX]

Ialti, on 25 February 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

What, are we driving Tonka Trucks now?

You tell me?

Do you happen to know how much it costs to buy a pound of tea from china?

Don't really see the relevance in this post.

[Doc Holliday]

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

You tell me?

Do you happen to know how much it costs to buy a pound of tea from china?

Don't really see the relevance in this post.

Don't sweat it, no one sees the relevance in any of your posts either.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 25 February 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Don't sweat it, no one sees the relevance in any of your posts either.

Il take that as a
"no SLXSLXSLX, me pouting about ecm, and swearing to not play until it is removed" campaign has not been going well.

[Abivard]

I take offense at the anti-ecm streak users trying to use LRM's as a cat's paw. LRM does not suffer from ECM unless the LRM pilot can't play, which category most anti-ecm lrm pilots fall into.

Streaks is why they want ecm gone, and hardly anyone has sympathy for streak boats do we?

I also can shoot well with any weapon, anyone can fire lrms, and anyone can rack up damage with lrms vs stupid enemys who stand still in the open. But as soon as they shoot back and move we will hear the cry OMG nerf ECM, wether it was present or not.

as for the arguement that everyone that can does equip ecm making it OP by default, well then;

Everyone equips weapons, any and all weapons are OP
Everyone equips armor, any armor is OP
Everyone needs a computer and they vary a lot, do you want them balanced out to the lowest common denominator?
Some people have skill, should my weapons do less damage than yours because I am a better shot and it isn't fair you always lose?

Whine is whine, and your whine is so sweet to me.