189 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

DocBach, on 25 February 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

I don't like ECM how its been implemented



can you teach me how to play this game good sir?

*also done without LRM's, Streaks, or ECM

Oh indeed I can grasshopper, I am only an average player, but I see you are rather sub par, good endurance perhaps, but a lousy win/loss ratio. perhaps that is because you are used to being carried by your team mates maybe?

[DocBach]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Oh indeed I can grasshopper, I am only an average player, but I see you are rather sub par, good endurance perhaps, but a lousy win/loss ratio. perhaps that is because you are used to being carried by your team mates maybe?

Oh, that makes sense. I'm guessing you had way better scores playing against the other average players in the bottom-rung ELO bracket.

Also: tournament didn't count much on win/loss, it had to do with individual points/performance per game. So, you're pretty much wrong on all accounts.

Edited by DocBach, 26 February 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Abivard]

So... how do I know you were not in a cicadia cda-3m which does indeed run ecm and is a medium, but what the hay, facts and truth shouldn't intrude here!

[One Medic Army]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

iff is a crutch,
locations? use chat, TS, Mk1 Eyeball.. again the SSRM just has to come out as it is the REAL reason most hate ECM lol.

What are wrong with all those simple things...
Oh forgot, y'all don't want to have to learn to play, its over rated, learning.

Text chat is difficult to use in battle, not every person uses TS (I do, and I also PUG).

I reiterate my request:

Quote

I'd like to hear why you think there's no problem with cutting off IFF and friendly locations (plus monopolizing SSRM usage) with a single 1.5ton piece of equipment.

"Because your TS team doesn't have an issue with it" is not a valid response FYI.

I think you're the one who doesn't want to learn how to play, and you're relying on the ECM crutch to cover for your lack of tactical ability.

If you can make a logical, coherent, post about why ECM is fine without lowering yourself to personal insults I'd enjoy reading it.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 February 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[DocBach]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

So... how do I know you were not in a cicadia cda-3m which does indeed run ecm and is a medium, but what the hay, facts and truth shouldn't intrude here!

Except I used a CN9-A with an AC/10, 2 medium lasers, and 2 SRM-6's. With a stock engine. Specifically avoided cheese. In fact, most of the top leaderboard players used surprising builds that highlighted individual skill rather than dependence on unbalanced kraft macaroni.

So the truth also goes against your terrible logic as well.

[Koshirou]

Abivard, on 25 February 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

as for the arguement that everyone that can does equip ecm making it OP by default, well then;

Everyone equips weapons, any and all weapons are OP
Everyone equips armor, any armor is OP

I had a feeling someone would bring up an inapt comparison like this, so I'll explain where your logic went wrong in terms that are very general and hopefully easy enough to understand:

- Weapons (or engines, if you want to bring that up as well) are attributes you need to select for your avatar in order to play the game at all. There is no choice to make here, not even a decision. If one arbitrarily limited which avatars can have these attributes, all others would simply be unplayable, and this would not even be an imbalanced design feature, it would be a bug. So this specific comparison makes no sense at all and we can disregard it.

- Armor is indeed something that all players will give their avatar, and usually somewhere near the maximum allowed. So how can we tell it is not "overpowered" in the same way as ECM? The answer should be obvious enough if you really start to think about it: Because armor is not arbitrarily restricted as to which avatars can have it. Yes, armor amounts are indeed restricted by tonnage - but this is a balanced restriction because lower tonnage means, on the other hand, higher speed.
If you are in this game for winning as often as possible. there is a choice to make between the two.There is no choice to make whether to install ECM on a Raven-3L or not. There is no choice to make whether to make an AS7-D-DC or another model of Atlas your primary 'Mech.

Here, these guys explain it better:


Now you may say "Lots of non-ECM chassis get played still, so obviously there is a choice". Yes. But the choice they do set up involves two entirely different subsets of motivation - namely game-defined competetiveness and player desire to experiment, create and display their individuality. It is unnecessary to set up this kind of choice, and it is especially poisonous to a game like this because it basically asks players to suppress their curiosity and creativeness if they want to win - which is probably the most devastating thing that can happen to a game's community.

In conclusion:

ECM is obviously unbalanced because selecting it is not a gameplay choice and it is restricted by aesthetic and creative choices.

Edited by Koshirou, 26 February 2013 - 01:52 AM.

[Abivard]

If your desire is to experiment, create and display your individuality in a Game. I believe you may have chosen the wrong game.

This is a Team based game, centered on warfare in the far future in real big stompy mechs with blazing weapons that takes a certain skill to pilot and fire it's weapons effectively, on top of that it is a fast paced fluid environment with dozens of variables in a constant state of flux, it requires the ability to think quickly and react even faster.

If you need to make it a simple, non-thinking, no need to learn, clueless, skill-less game, keeping asking for ECM nerf, LRM nerf and whatever you have trouble with nerf.
Keep going into the match already defeated, that way you can be a prophet to your own doom.

The tournament was an endurance match pure and simple. and you lost. I didn't compete -shrugs-

[One Medic Army]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

If your desire is to experiment, create and display your individuality in a Game. I believe you may have chosen the wrong game.

This is a Team based game, centered on warfare in the far future in real big stompy mechs with blazing weapons that takes a certain skill to pilot and fire it's weapons effectively, on top of that it is a fast paced fluid environment with dozens of variables in a constant state of flux, it requires the ability to think quickly and react even faster.

If you need to make it a simple, non-thinking, no need to learn, clueless, skill-less game, keeping asking for ECM nerf, LRM nerf and whatever you have trouble with nerf.
Keep going into the match already defeated, that way you can be a prophet to your own doom.

The tournament was an endurance match pure and simple. and you lost. I didn't compete -shrugs-

So what you're saying is that you hate people who make up their own builds, and you don't have any good arguments.

Gotcha, I'll start ignoring you now.

Oh, and ECM lowers the skill level plenty already.
Everyone cluster around the Atlas and blob at the enemy, it's now officially skill.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 February 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[DocBach]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

If your desire is to experiment, create and display your individuality in a Game. I believe you may have chosen the wrong game.

This is a Team based game, centered on warfare in the far future in real big stompy mechs with blazing weapons that takes a certain skill to pilot and fire it's weapons effectively, on top of that it is a fast paced fluid environment with dozens of variables in a constant state of flux, it requires the ability to think quickly and react even faster.

If you need to make it a simple, non-thinking, no need to learn, clueless, skill-less game, keeping asking for ECM nerf, LRM nerf and whatever you have trouble with nerf.
Keep going into the match already defeated, that way you can be a prophet to your own doom.

The tournament was an endurance match pure and simple. and you lost. I didn't compete -shrugs-

Well, seeing as this is beta, and my job as a beta tester is to point out deficiencies in the game, I'd say making recommendations and suggestions is exactly why I am here in this game.

But you must have figured my skill level out. Being that if you didn't have the skills to compete with the other top leaderboard contenders you found yourself pushed off the list (you can see other players with much less games scored high enough to get on the list, but the ones who couldn't hang in the top ELO bracket were quickly pushed out, regardless of games played).

I played against all kinds of builds, and managed to place 10th in a tournament with several thousand players. No argument you make is going to discredit my skill level, as it has been proven publicly. Your argument telling me I need to learn to play is hilariously invalid.

How's this for skill - instead of taking a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that negates several times the tonnage of missile weapons, you learn to use cover and concealment and moving under direct fire techniques? Or, is that too hard and you really need ECM to shelter you from the big bad LRM boats?

Edited by DocBach, 26 February 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Koshirou]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

If your desire is to experiment, create and display your individuality in a Game.

This desire is why people play games. Any games.

Quote

If you need to make it a simple, non-thinking, no need to learn, clueless, skill-less game, keeping asking for ECM nerf,

I was obviously not getting through to you. My apologies. Apparently my explanations were so complicated that you did not even comprehend that ECM makes the game less complex, and makes it require less thinking, instead of the other way 'round. Even though I am certainly at fault for making my point in an insufficiently clear manner, may I recommend you read what others write more closely and more thoroughly before? I ask because...

Quote

The tournament was an endurance match pure and simple. and you lost.

... you seem to even have lost tracked of who you were responding to. It was DocBach who brought his performance in the tournament into play, not me. I did not, in fact, pay the tournament any heed.

[Abivard]

Koshirou;you really need to explain if ECM has made everything so much simpler, why are you having such a problem with it?

doc;Being able to stay awake for 60 hours while playing a computer game is a feat, it is not however any indicator of skill in the game. The boards just shows who played the most.

I assumed you two could tell which statements applied to which poster, but that ruins your obtuse act doesn't it?

[One Medic Army]

I checked Abivard's post history, to see if he had any actual pro-ECM arguments (as opposed to whatever he's trying to do now).

He doesn't actually ever provide real arguments, so don't hold your breath on this one.
It's all just rhetoric and assertions with no supporting evidence or logic.

Oh, and insults.

Edited by One Medic Army, 26 February 2013 - 03:04 AM.

[Koshirou]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Koshirou;you really need to explain if ECM has made everything so much simpler, why are you having such a problem with it?

That question answers itself, doesn't it? Now I need to add the caveat that I do not know what you mean by simpler, because I said less complex - but assuming you meant the two to be synonymous, it should be clear: ECM removes meaningful choice for the game, which makes it less complex, and thus less interesting.

P.S.: Please note that this is but one aspect of why ECM is problematic. There is also the whole matter of how ECM affects actual play instead of just the choices players make prior to entering a game. But I don't think we should explore that before we are clear on how ECM affects said choices and thereby impoverishes the game environment.

[Abivard]

I have the feeling this is apples and oranges koshirou.

it is less complex of a choice between spider variants with ECM in the equation. The ECM variant has better hardpoints and can mount ECM, without ECM one might take a closer look at just how much of an advantage that variant has over the others in weapon loads as well as jj's. But that is a problem A player will come across only when they first compare the different chassis.

Playing in the game ECM adds complexity and depth to tactics, it requires greater efforts on yourself and your teammates, it constantly challenges you to adapt,improvise and overcome each new facet of the game when ECM is present. With out ECM everything becomes so simple. Enemy mechs light up with a big sign saying I am here. you can always tell with a glance where everyone is,( just like on Tabletop, but we know it was cheating then don't we?) It let streak cats rule, and the rain from unmovable LRM boats blotted out the sun. and from those two crowds you will find the most anti ECM fanatics.

But what about the snipers whining about ECM? that is where the Kill stealing comes in, hard to cherry-pick targets when you can't get a damage readout.

What need to point out pro's don't won't be listened too when I can point out the falsehoods and whines of the nerf it crowd?

[Koshirou]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

I have the feeling this is apples and oranges koshirou.

What is "this"?

Quote

it is less complex of a choice between spider variants with ECM in the equation. The ECM variant has better hardpoints and can mount ECM, without ECM one might take a closer look at just how much of an advantage that variant has over the others in weapon loads as well as jj's. But that is a problem A player will come across only when they first compare the different chassis.

I see you have grasped, if incompletely, how the reduction in complexity works. However it is, at its core, more far reaching than you apparently think: At the moment, there are no gameplay reasons to play lights other than Raven-3Ls and assaults other than AS7-D-DCs.

Quote

Playing in the game ECM adds complexity and depth to tactics, it requires greater efforts on yourself and your teammates,

Sigh... I see we are jumping straight to the actual play issues without having sorted out the previous matter. Oh well:

a) ECM does not add complexity and depth on the level of those who use it because using it requires no skill, no choices and no special tactics to speak of.

ECM does not provide for complex or deep counterplay because there are no viable counter strategies for it. This is the big difference to LRMs and Splatcats which may be somewhat too powerful at the moment, but are not fundamentally broken - because these builds actually do have viable counter strategies:
- Use cover to break LRM locks, avoid open areas and if you cannot, turn to distribute the damage to less crucial areas.
- Keep your distance from Splatcats, shoot them on the approach, aim for the weapon pods.
Note that these strategies are sound no matter what type of Mech or equipment you use.
If you disagree: Could you provide, in similarly concrete terms, viable counter strategies for ECM?

c) ECM removes information from the game. Less information generally makes for less complexity.

d) One of ECM's features - disrupting coordination - can be circumvented by 3rd party software. This is generally not a good sign.

Quote

Enemy mechs light up with a big sign saying I am here. you can always tell with a glance where everyone is,( just like on Tabletop, but we know it was cheating then don't we?)

No, you could not. Targeting has always* required line of sight in MWO. It has been definitely unlike the TT from the beginning.

Quote

It let streak cats rule, and the rain from unmovable LRM boats blotted out the sun. and from those two crowds you will find the most anti ECM fanatics.

That is an unfounded guess which in any case does not apply to me.

If Streaks and LRMs are imbalanced, and they actually may be, then the correct thing would be to balance them, not to introduce another imbalanced game feature as a counter.

* As far as open beta goes.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Koshirou, on 26 February 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

ECM is obviously unbalanced because selecting it is not a gameplay choice and it is restricted by aesthetic and creative choices.

Only thing youve proved, is that you cant prove a point.

[Abivard]

pearls before swine, why do I bother.

[p4g3m4s7r]

SlXSlXSlX, on 25 February 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Eureka, I figured you out Doc.

Guy asserts he likes fast mechs, and asserts he does not engage as a brawler. Hates ECM so much hes been QQing in some other game since inception... what is he???
Clue: STREAK SPAMMER!!!!!

Doc, ssrm spam isnt coming back, nomore thna this game will ever return to the dark ages. Post artemis, pre ecm. Sorry man. ECM might change, but your auto aim equivilents of the modern warfare 2 noob tube/dual G18s, will never dominate this game again.

Uh, I'm not doc. You should really actually read who said what. It's really not that hard to keep track of. Also, I roll in Dragons, Hunchbacks, Commandos, and Awesomes. I used to use a Cat K2, but then ECM was implemented and I didn't feel like Elite-ing by splat cat. It's just boring. I actually did pretty well in my SRM6 C1 build. My only builds with SSRMs are my Awesome 8R and Comm 2D. The 2D is anywhere between insanely OP when I boat and ECM to absolutely worthless when I have no ECM. The 8R is a very recent experiment. It's kinda fun.

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I think to constructively discuss ECM we need to understand the issue.

I'm sorry, can we at least TRY to get back to some semblance of this? I really feel like I'm talking to a child here. Especially since you and Abivard can't seem to keep track of who said what despite the fact that this is a forum and our names are clearly marked.

Koshirou, on 26 February 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

... you seem to even have lost tracked of who you were responding to. It was DocBach who brought his performance in the tournament into play, not me. I did not, in fact, pay the tournament any heed.

Get used to it. He's been doing that a lot lately in this thread. Apparently it's very difficult for him to read our names and not only see "ECM hater"

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Only thing youve proved, is that you cant prove a point.

Wow... this is both the opposite of constructive and the opposite of a real argument.

[p4g3m4s7r]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

pearls before swine, why do I bother.

I don't know, why do you bother posting crap like this?

[TOPGUN Wolfman]

TOPGUN Viper, on 25 February 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

At the TOP GUN Academy Electronic Counter Measure are a great way to break Missile locks!!!

You're too close for missiles, switch to guns!