189 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I think to constructively discuss ECM we need to understand the issue. I have compiled 4 lists of data based on extensive research.

Weapons ECM stops without a counter.

LRM 5
LRM 10 (tbh im not sure if there is an LRM 10, I truely never look at the LRMs)
LRM 15
LRM 20
SSRM
Radar (didn't know this was a weapon)

Weapons ECM does not counter.

AC2
AC5
UAC5
AC10
AC20
SL
SPL
ML
MPL
LL
LPL
ERLL
PPC
ERPPC
SRM
My eyeballs when I use heat vision

Counters to ECM

Tag
PPC
Death
ECM- Disrupt

Weapons ECM counters despite application of counter ECM measures

(Someitmes a few of teh counters dont work, or require aiming skills/certain distances to apply them. So I will add "ineptitude".)

- Inept usage of counter measures available.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Now im no BT expert (not much for star based novels with giant alien birds), so you will have to excuse me if my results are partial/incorrect... but I think I got it about right.

Did I miss anything?

Provided the list is right, I think we can constructively discuss how wonderful/or terrible ECM is now.

So.... What do you think?

XD

Here are my thoughts:

Requirements of using ECM:
1.5 tons
2 Critical slots (basically anywhere on the mech except the head.)
Enough fine motor skills to drag and drop.
Absolutely nothing else. You can do whatever whatever you want while ECM does its magic.



Requirements of countering ECM:
TAG:
-1 Ton
-1 Critical Slot
-One Energy Weapon Slot
-Being with 750 meters
-Maintaining TAG laser on target. (doing nothing else but keeping your laser on that mech)

PPC: Counters for 4 seconds.
-7 Tons
-3 Critical Slots
-One Energy Weapon Slot
-Hitting that target with a shot. (and dissipating heat generated)

Another ECM:
-Same as thing it's countering, only also requiring the two to kiss at 180 meters.

-----------------------

So basically to counter the magic box of passive effects:
One has to actively train on the target unable to defend himself from other threats.
OR
One has to hit the Mech with the Magic Box with one of 2 weapons in the game. (for a 4 second reprieve)
OR
One has to be mounting one of his own, and get within 180 meters.

----------------------

This is what I think:

"An Ounce of ECM is worth a Pound of Skill" is that balanced?

Your turn, SIX.

Edited by Livewyr, 26 February 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Well, the best way to do with the ECM would be the following

-ECM reduce any enemies radar with 50%

-Beagle Probe Counter the ECM or give a +25% to radar strength

THEN we add a mechanic from World of Tanks:

In order to gain ANY targeting information from an ally both pilots must be within each others sensor range.

So (we assume a 500 meter ranged radar): Pilot A with LRM is 500 meters from Pilot B who is 500 meters from Target X.

As long as A is within 500 meters from B he will get targeting info about X. If X has ECM then B will have his radar range reduced to 250 instead of the usual 500, he is now 250 meters to far away from A to give info about X.

This would mean that you need a chain of mechs to relay info about targets too far away, and also making LRM targeting more difficult but not simply blocking it.

This would also affect TAG as it's built in transmitter gets reduced power if within ECM range but not simply blocked.

The TAG would still function but require that the TAG user is close enought to his allies to relay the information as the TAG targeting data is still processed and sent from HIS mech.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Livewyr, on 26 February 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Here are my thoughts:

Requirements of using ECM:
1.5 tons
2 Critical slots (basically anywhere on the mech except the head.)
Enough fine motor skills to drag and drop.
Absolutely nothing else. You can do whatever whatever you want while ECM does its magic.



Requirements of countering ECM:
TAG:
-1 Ton
-1 Critical Slot
-One Energy Weapon Slot
-Being with 750 meters
-Maintaining TAG laser on target. (doing nothing else but keeping your laser on that mech)

PPC: Counters for 4 seconds.
-7 Tons
-3 Critical Slots
-One Energy Weapon Slot
-Hitting that target with a shot. (and dissipating heat generated)

Another ECM:
-Same as thing it's countering, only also requiring the two to kiss at 180 meters.

-----------------------

So basically to counter the magic box of passive effects:
One has to actively train on the target unable to defend himself from other threats.
OR
One has to hit the Mech with the Magic Box with one of 2 weapons in the game. (for a 4 second reprieve)
OR
One has to be mounting one of his own, and get within 180 meters.

----------------------

This is what I think:

"An Ounce of ECM is worth a Pound of Skill" is that balanced?

Your turn, SIX.

I only have one question in reply. Provided your using weapons ecm does not impact, all ballistics, lasers, and srm's.. why is it "necessary" to counter it at all?

Or are you using builds that require an ecm to be countered for you to be effective? And if so, why?

This game has alot more going on than LRMs and SSRMs.

Edit: Actually thats 3 questions, but they are related.

I see doc and mallon creeping in my thread. Are you two ready to counterpost, or did you just tag live in to pick up where you fell off?

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 26 February 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

For 1.5 tons guardian should work against
1) NARC Beacons
2) Active Probes
3) Artemis FCS
4) C3 links.

Optionally it could

1) Add ghost images
2) Counter enemy ECM.

That's what Guardian does for TT. It balances the "new" electronics.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

For 1.5 tons guardian should work against
1) NARC Beacons
2) Active Probes
3) Artemis FCS
4) C3 links.

Optionally it could

1) Add ghost images
2) Counter enemy ECM.

That's what Guardian does for TT. It balances the "new" electronics.

TY Joeseph. Tell us more about board game rules from the 80s, really....

[Joseph Mallan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

TY Joeseph. Tell us more about board game rules from the 80s, really....

They are still working perfectly in 2013. You're welcome.
Really...

ECM should be used to counter the equipment it was designed for in the Battletech/MechWarrior universe.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Livewyr]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I only have one question in reply. Provided your using weapons ecm does not impact, all ballistics, lasers, and srm's.. why is it "necessary" to counter it at all?

Or are you using builds that require an ecm to be countered for you to be effective? And if so, why?

This game has alot more going on than LRMs and SSRMs.

Edit: Actually thats 3 questions, but they are related.

I see doc and mallon creeping in my thread. Are you two ready to counterpost, or did you just tag live in to pick up where you fell off?

List of reasons to counter ECM even if you yourself are not using SSRMs or LRMs.

-Map information
-Having availability of missiles on your team to deal with light mechs
-Any reason you want to have missile support (lights, Assaults, anything.

I have one question for you-
Why do you think it is ok to have an entire class of weapons negated by a light, tiny piece of equipment that requires absolutely zero effort or skill to mount and use.

And assuming you have some reasoning for that:

Would you then be ok with these pieces of equipment?:


MFC
1.5 tons/2 critical slots
-An intense magnetic field generator that would slow down any ballistic fired outside of 270 meters to the point where it does little or no damage UNLESS you had a person mount an energy draining beam that would disable that magnetic field (must be kept on target just as TAG)

DFG
1.5 tons/2 critical slots
-A personal dense fog/steam generator that would require lasers to be on target for 1/2 a second before they start to deal damage because they have to burn through the fog. This ofcourse could be countered by someone using Jumpjets near, or flamers on the mech to blow away the majority of the fog.

[Rakashan]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Only thing youve proved, is that you cant prove a point.

Awww, hugsies troll-boy. When confronted with a valid argument you choose to ignore it. I guess we now know all we need to know about your point here.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Rakashan, on 26 February 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Awww, hugsies troll-boy. When confronted with a valid argument you choose to ignore it. I guess we now know all we need to know about your point here.

This is why I stopped posting in response to him. He can't think his way out of a paper bag. Instead of coming up with logical responses, he just says.

"DUR I TOOK ECM OUT OF MY DDC SO ITS BALANCED".

[KuruptU4Fun]

Let me give you a logical response then.

If they haven't changed ECM as a component itself since it's introduction then it will be a massive surprise if it ever does. Use the soft counters you have now. You may get 1 or 2 more (I'm betting on 1) and that's it.

[Alvor]

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should always work if using Canon BT/MW.

Number of (regular) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. On average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo.

All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
…2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2.. 1.. 1.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6
3.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6
4.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9
5.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
6.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
7.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
8.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
9.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 7.. 8.. 10. 12. 16
10. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 7.. 8.. 10. 12. 16
[u]11.[/u] 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9.. 10. 12. 15. 20
[u]12.[/u] 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9.. 10. 12. 15. 20

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alvor, as stated many a time in this thread and across the forums altogether. This is not the table top game made by FASA. While PGI has chosen to use it as a baseline reference to build on. They do have to look other places and use other resources outside of those manuals to make things work as a video game.

While I and others understand where you're coming from. You are always going to have your posts rebuked by that statement above.

[DocBach]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I see doc

Which doc, me or doc holliday? I think we've been active in this thread since its inception.

I've already put out my opinion on ECM. I think it's very poorly implemented and should be a niche piece of equipment that adds more layers of strategies countering other niche pieces that should provide an advantage to a team, but not be the main mechanic this entire game is balanced around.

I want to see other pieces of equipment, mainly the Beagle, buffed to an active radar that can detect units even without LOS. I want Guardian to disable that -- allow you to hide and sneak past people with more powerful sensors. As a tradeoff, I want the missile immunity mode moved to a third mode, and toned down, so players have to choose what they are going to defend against. Are they going to use ECM to mask their movement from potential scouts, or use it to disrupt missile locks, or use it to protect against the Narc beacon that just hit it's buddy?

We can get way more out of ECM on all levels of this game with some tweaks to it and other weapons systems.

[Strum Wealh]

Livewyr, on 26 February 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

List of reasons to counter ECM even if you yourself are not using SSRMs or LRMs.

-Map information
-Having availability of missiles on your team to deal with light mechs
-Any reason you want to have missile support (lights, Assaults, anything.

I have one question for you-
Why do you think it is ok to have an entire class of weapons negated by a light, tiny piece of equipment that requires absolutely zero effort or skill to mount and use.

And assuming you have some reasoning for that:

Would you then be ok with these pieces of equipment?:


MFC
1.5 tons/2 critical slots
-An intense magnetic field generator that would slow down any ballistic fired outside of 270 meters to the point where it does little or no damage UNLESS you had a person mount an energy draining beam that would disable that magnetic field (must be kept on target just as TAG)

DFG
1.5 tons/2 critical slots
-A personal dense fog/steam generator that would require lasers to be on target for 1/2 a second before they start to deal damage because they have to burn through the fog. This ofcourse could be countered by someone using Jumpjets near, or flamers on the mech to blow away the majority of the fog.

Just to put it out there:

As much as PPCs have been a long-time favorite of mine, I would rather like to see the Blue Shield Particle Field Damper, Laser Inhibiting Warheads, and Laser Reflective Armor - all of which are 100% canon - appear in game as the timeline progresses.

BSPFD (TacOps, pg. 296)

• Available in 3053
  
• Weighs 3 tons, and occupies 1 critical in each section except the Head
  
• Is not available as an OmniTech pod
  
• Explodes and causes 5 units of damage if it takes a critical hit while active (no explosion/damage is it takes a critical hit while turned off)
  
• Guaranteed active time of 60 seconds, with increasing likelihood of being clogged after that
  
• Negates the masking effects of ECM and Stealth systems
  
• Primary effect: reduces the damage from all incoming (non-capital/naval) PPC strikes by 50%
  
• No effect against other weapons or equipment

LIW (TacOps, pg. 356)

• Available in 3053
  
• Requires Arrow IV launcher
  
• Alternate munition for Arrow IV; 5 missiles per ton
  
• Produces a fog bank ~360 meters wide and ~12 meters tall that lasts for ~20 seconds
  
• Any and all laser weapon salvos passing through the fog bank have their damage reduced by 2 for each 30 meters traveled through the fog bank
  
• No effect against other weapons and equipment

LRA (TacOps, pgs. 280-281)

• Available in 3058
  
• Same number of armor points per ton as Standard Armor, consumes 10 critical spaces
  
• not available as an OnmiTech pod
  
• Primary effect: reduces the damage and heat effects from all incoming energy weapon strikes by 50%
  
• Same level of protection as Standard Armor against ballistic and missile weapons using standard munitions.
  
• Takes double damage from falls, melee attacks, collisions, and AOE artillery strikes
  
• More susceptable to the armor-piercing effects of special Armor-Piercing AC shells, Tandem-Charge Missiles, and BattleMech Tasers

Blue Shiels and Reflective Armor stack with each other.
Reflective Armor and LI Warhead fog stack with each other.

Does being generally okay with ECM-as-is and wanting to eventually see these in-game make me a terrible person?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 February 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

DocBach, on 26 February 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Which doc, me or doc holliday? I think we've been active in this thread since its inception.

I've already put out my opinion on ECM. I think it's very poorly implemented and should be a niche piece of equipment that adds more layers of strategies countering other niche pieces that should provide an advantage to a team, but not be the main mechanic this entire game is balanced around.

I want to see other pieces of equipment, mainly the Beagle, buffed to an active radar that can detect units even without LOS. I want Guardian to disable that -- allow you to hide and sneak past people with more powerful sensors. As a tradeoff, I want the missile immunity mode moved to a third mode, and toned down, so players have to choose what they are going to defend against. Are they going to use ECM to mask their movement from potential scouts, or use it to disrupt missile locks, or use it to protect against the Narc beacon that just hit it's buddy?

We can get way more out of ECM on all levels of this game with some tweaks to it and other weapons systems.

I meant doc holiday, id refer to you as docmach, since that is your full first name on the forums. Sorry for the confusion. o7

I wouldnt want to be confused with doc holiday either...


As to your post, I agree that some other equipment is pretty non-viable, and too would like to see them have more of an impact. I like an intricate system of checks and balances. It makes a game deeper, provides more options, and keeps ones interest longer.

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Just to put it out there:

As much as PPCs have been a long-time favorite of mine, I would rather like to see the Blue Shield Particle Field Damper, Laser Inhibiting Warheads, and Laser Reflective Armor - all of which are 100% canon - appear in game as the timeline progresses.

BSPFD (TacOps, pg. 296)

• Available in 3053
  
• Weighs 3 tons, and occupies 1 critical in each section except the Head
  
• Is not available as an OmniTech pod
  
• Explodes and causes 5 units of damage if it takes a critical hit while active (no explosion/damage is it takes a critical hit while turned off)
  
• Guaranteed active time of 60 seconds, with increasing likelihood of being clogged after that
  
• Negates the masking effects of ECM and Stealth systems
  
• Primary effect: reduces the damage from all incoming (non-capital/naval) PPC strikes by 50%
  
• No effect against other weapons or equipment

LIW (TacOps, pg. 356)

• Available in 3053
  
• Requires Arrow IV launcher
  
• Alternate munition for Arrow IV; 5 missiles per ton
  
• Produces a fog bank ~360 meters wide and ~12 meters tall
  
• Any and all laser weapon salvos passing through the fog bank have their damage reduced by 2 for each 30 meters traveled through the fog bank
  
• No effect against other weapons and equipment

LRA (TacOps, pgs. 280-281)

• Available in 3058
  
• Same number of armor points per ton as Standard Armor, consumes 10 critical spaces
  
• not available as an OnmiTech pod
  
• Primary effect: reduces the damage and heat effects from all incoming energy weapon strikes by 50%
  
• Same level of protection as Standard Armor against ballistic and missile weapons using standard munitions.
  
• Takes double damage from falls, melee attacks, collisions, and AOE artillery strikes
  
• More susceptable to the armor-piercing effects of special Armor-Piercing AC shells, Tandem-Charge Missiles, and BattleMech Tasers

Blue Shiels and Reflective Armor stack with each other.




Reflective Armor and LI Warhead fog stack with each other.

Does being generally okay with ECM-as-is and wanting to eventually see these in-game make me a terrible person?

Honestly I feel like sturm is the defacto expert on this topic, and I will defer to him on all matters related to ECM, and BT lore.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 26 February 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Honestly I feel like sturm is the defacto expert on this topic, and I will defer to him on all matters related to ECM, and BT lore.

That might not b the best plan - I just know enough to look things up and enjoy the BT/MW debates (assuming they can stay at least somewhat civil).
There are others, far more knowledgeable than I about such things...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 February 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[DocBach]

Sturm, you're pretty much a master at paragraph formation and editing. Your posts look legit as ****

[Koshirou]

Abivard, on 26 February 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

pearls before swine, why do I bother.

I suppose you are upset. Veiled ad hominem attacks such as the one above are, in my experience, often an indication of this. I am very sorry if anything I say did in fact upset you. May I suggest you get some sleep or rest to cool down and possibly approach the topic afresh?

[SlXSlXSlX]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

That might not b the best plan - I just know enough to look things up and enjoy the BT/MW debates (assuming they can stay at least somewhat civil).
There are others, far more knowledgeable than I about such things...

I think I can speak for everyone in saying we all appreciate the time and effort you put into your posting, and I apologize if I cant address it all in turn, but much of it goes over my head. Thats why I just smile and agree with you by quitely nodding my head yes. I keep thinking to myslf "is he agreeing with me"? Im still not sure, but you did make me think perhaps an ecm reorder couldnt hurt, lets jsut not go back to teh dark ages of mwo, the ones where LRMs, blocked out the sun. I did record a match pre ECM once. Might as well post it here.



Spartans dont need ECM. Spartans use cover.

Link update: Revised.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 26 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Koshirou]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Only thing youve proved, is that you cant prove a point.

Well, my admittedly limited education taught me to prove points by first explaining the arguments in favor of them. Casting doubt on my ability to prove a point without referring to any of the quite extensive arguments I provided in this case is relatively unhelpful and sadly does not make for a basis for fruitful discussion. If you could show a little more precisely where you think my arguments or conclusions went wrong?