207 replies to this topic

[Kobold]

I play mostly 4 man groups. I hate trying to herd pugs when dropping solo.

With the new matchmaker I feel like I have been bumping into stronger teams, but at the same time, I have teammates who aren't quite as abysmally terrible at the game as they used to be. When I do drop solo, I often get teamed with other 4-mans, and players who regularly play in 4-mans. This makes me happier.

I see no reason to complain. I don't care how good my opponents are, as long as I get teammates who I can count on.

[LordBraxton]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

This is true, but over time and multiple matches u get teh bad ones, then ur paired with the good ones. It is not like ELO rank is based on any single match. If you run in a 4 man, you win more than you should, and your stats grow beyond your actual skill. That ELO does not account for such "stacking" isnt the fault of the formula, it is the fault of the individuals scamming the system.

Heres another WoT refereence. Met alot of tankers, and some moved to company battles, the equiv. of your 8 man queue.. they get so used to winning alot because they are very picky about who they run with. Run with Forge, and you will see. They win alot. So, alot of them have had their stats go up and up and up. (not forge specifically, I mean no disrespect to them, I jsut used them as an example of a group of pros that win alot) Alot of us pubbing tankers always called them stat hoors. (Again not Forge, but rather nidividuals who only play with the best, so they can win almost all the time). I mean the "I only play company battles" players. So if and when they drop solo, the mm thinks they are god in a tank, but they are not. They are good, but they are fighting the top3% on the server, and that tends to be immensely difficult. So they say, mm sucks, pubs are noobs, im going back to co. battles. I am really good, and I lose so much in random battles, its MM and the other playrs faults.

Problem is with them. Their rank, their stats, have excelled beyond their actual skill. If they had just done pure pub all the time, they would be pegged properly. Their conduct, scams the system, giving them a false higher than it should be, set of stats.

Now.. Think of this co battle as a macrocosm for the 4 man team. Same thing. They are used to winning 4 of 5 matches.

Then... Go look at their posts, and what or who they blame.

They blame the MM (ELO) ((I call her Elaine)), and they blame the pubs, calling them idiots. Its the same issue, in a very similiar game.

TickdOff, I know you can understand this, I believe Ive seen your name running around in WoT, or am I mistaken? Regardless, the logic is sound. Fluff your stats by grouping, and when you go solo, unless your as good as all your mates you grouped with or better, you will have a bad time. Why? Your stats are higher than they should be, and poor elo only measures by numbers. Numbers you have artifically inflated.

this dude is sooo bitter against teams its hilarious

[p4r4g0n]

Your OP is worded a little provocatively (especially the "quote") which is why I didn't "like" it although I agree with it in most part. Incidentally, the flip side of about how grouping affects a player's experience is that other players in a group can hold back an exceptional player but this would be the exception rather than the norm.

As a solo PUGger who occasionally groups (although I'm grouping more and more these days just because it is a lot more laughs) it is pretty easy to test which group of people are carrying me and which I'm on par with and I really like being able to tell.

Insofar as Elo rating system is concerned, it looks like it is pretty much working as intended from what I can see although there are some occasional weird match ups that I think PGI needs to look at and re-think.

However, all those players that are complaining about consistently bad match ups or apparent error in their Elo rating should be submitting their complaints to support@mwomercs.com instead of just QQ'g on the forums. Would be more productive at least and possibly help PGI find a bug or cause a re-think of some aspects of the matchmaker?

[SlXSlXSlX]

LordBraxton, on 23 February 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

this dude is sooo bitter against teams its hilarious

True story, mostly.

Definately never said I like them, at least not in this meta. Trace me back to my first post, I said the same there. Either increase the team size, or reduce the premade size, because as long as you can stack 50% of a pub team, you have an immense amount of control over the outcome. Too much, especially gien the learning curve in mwo.

[Zakie Chan]

I was running my YLW for about 12 hrs yesterday in the tournament. I made it to 37 before I shut her down. Along the way I noticed a quick jump of 3 times more wins than losses. By the end when I was under 1:2.

The level of play was a fantastic increase. It made pugging for me much more rewarding and enjoyable as a whole. As mentioned people were working together and I faced very skilled opponents that were well coordinated and some had crazy accuracy. There were a few odd ball games (5 atlas vs mix of med/heavies) and a few where I felt like I had to carry people. But as a whole it made me want to 4 man less.

Yes there is a large amount of the 'optimal' mechs, but it is not much different than running 8mans. Pugging now seems to be a good place to practice dealing with the 'optimal' stuff.

[MischiefSC]

Zakie Chan, on 23 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I was running my YLW for about 12 hrs yesterday in the tournament. I made it to 37 before I shut her down. Along the way I noticed a quick jump of 3 times more wins than losses. By the end when I was under 1:2.

The level of play was a fantastic increase. It made pugging for me much more rewarding and enjoyable as a whole. As mentioned people were working together and I faced very skilled opponents that were well coordinated and some had crazy accuracy. There were a few odd ball games (5 atlas vs mix of med/heavies) and a few where I felt like I had to carry people. But as a whole it made me want to 4 man less.

Yes there is a large amount of the 'optimal' mechs, but it is not much different than running 8mans. Pugging now seems to be a good place to practice dealing with the 'optimal' stuff.

This is what many people don't get. When you get really good at pugging you're going to drop with really good pugs. When I drop pug in my Atlas I'm playing with and against some incredible players. It makes trying to level up my Trebuchet just painful sometimes. Then again I suck with the bucket.

That's the biggest strength of Elo, it doesn't just affect who you drop against. It affects who you drop with.

[Zylo]

MischiefSC, on 23 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

This is what many people don't get. When you get really good at pugging you're going to drop with really good pugs. When I drop pug in my Atlas I'm playing with and against some incredible players. It makes trying to level up my Trebuchet just painful sometimes. Then again I suck with the bucket.

That's the biggest strength of Elo, it doesn't just affect who you drop against. It affects who you drop with.

I don't think your success in the Atlas should be making your Trebuchet more difficult to level unless you were also having good performance in another medium mech recently.

Here's the post that suggests players may have 4 Elo ratings - 1 for each weight class: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1937375

[Risk of Fire]

Zylo, on 23 February 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

I don't think your success in the Atlas should be making your Trebuchet more difficult to level unless you were also having good performance in another medium mech recently.

Here's the post that suggests players may have 4 Elo ratings - 1 for each weight class: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1937375

Hes referring to the pain of depending on players who are not up to the standards of his usual teammates.

[ChrisOrange]

I only group because solo is kind of boring and being with friends is fun on voice chat. That's the reason I'm not on now and haven't streamed games today...I slept past the normal hours my friends are online.

We did have some pretty padded out stats and now we CAN get crushed. The guys are actually good at the game but they experiment (like me) and use weird builds that can't work at the top elo very often. They can put damage on and maybe even get some kills but they can't live against total weight mis-matches. Once you reach "not a tard" level of aiming and decision making there's really not much else this game has for you to master.

At that point: No skill you have or practiced can beat a hard counter build...which is what my friend ran into when he faced 2x ECM raven vs his for fun Jenner yesterday. I urged them not to play this weekend due to the event forcing min/max only builds and how ragey they get when they are hard countered/weight mis matched but I'm pretty sure they kept at it.

EDIT: The worst part is the weight mis-matches...that's something even solo puggers could agree with.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 24 February 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[urmamasllama]

i am happy to admit my w/l is heavily inflated oddly enough though as i've been losing more, my K/D and my average damage output per game have been going up. i still can't figure that one out

[ChrisOrange]

What's sad is that top ELO 4 man premades that want to win...must go 3 or 4 atlas. That will put them on the more likely end to have weight mis match in their favor. This is coming and you will see those forum posts come up during this week.

Along with what I put earlier...whether you are solo dropping or 4 manning...if you are near the top of ELO then you will get killed more often when you take the wrong mech/chassis. This is working as intended...of course the top will all be the "right" builds...but some of my friends will just rage over it when I don't really care either way.

The stats padding they had is teaching them that they can't run crappy mechs any more. They will either quit or start doing the right things. The "right things" are actually boring to a few of them so they will probably just quit until the meta game is at a better place or weight matching is forced.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 24 February 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[Sephlock]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

TL DR? If you like the image below, go back to the top and read the entire post.

You got me stuck in an infinite loop >_<. Make it stop...

[Deathlike]

This weekend isn't really helping with the pro-ELO argument... it only promotes the dominant/cheese builds so once this weekend is over... it should be back to "normal".

[Karl Split]

If that was a reference to my stats and abilities you havent checked my stats out LOL. Ive been pugging since closed beta and only joined a group a month or so back so my stats are goddawful

Still doesnt change the fact the ELO is borked, I faced an 8 man last night as sync dropping still occurs and the weight missmatches are plain comical. Fine #insert arrogance# in my hunchback I can kill assaults and laugh at them but percentage wise if the enemy team has a much higher drop weight than you they will win more games period.

Still not as bad as the plain exploit that is jump snipers in upper city base jumping up and coring out people in the lower city base at match start. Seen it twice so far, kinda makes me want to buy a jumping cataphract AKA new meta.

ChrisOrange, on 24 February 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

What's sad is that top ELO 4 man premades that want to win...must go 3 or 4 atlas. That will put them on the more likely end to have weight mis match in their favor. This is coming and you will see those forum posts come up during this week.

Along with what I put earlier...whether you are solo dropping or 4 manning...if you are near the top of ELO then you will get killed more often when you take the wrong mech/chassis. This is working as intended...of course the top will all be the "right" builds...but some of my friends will just rage over it when I don't really care either way.

The stats padding they had is teaching them that they can't run crappy mechs any more. They will either quit or start doing the right things. The "right things" are actually boring to a few of them so they will probably just quit until the meta game is at a better place or weight matching is forced.

Actually, im just stubborn. I still pug in my LRM mechs even if I get slaughtered with 4 d-dc's and a 3l on the enemy side while our side has a few mediums and a heavy doing a close examination of the cave for engangered mosses. (yes I has tag...)

[Joe Marberg]

I keep waiting for the ELO to give me good matches. But so far the people I'm teamed up with seem to be terrible (I guess I must be terrible too) but the opposing force is usually not terrible and rampages over the top of us 8-0 (or 8-1 if I manage to kill something) or more normally 6-0 (because a couple of disconnects is the norm). My patience for being the cannon fodder in some one elses glorious orgy of destruction is getting kind of limited. And then there's the frequent black screens. Meh. Time to go play something else for a while.

[Training Instructor]

Yeah, it's not the competition that bothers me, as I enjoy a good match. It's the ELO system deciding that a couple of people with 55-60% W/L ratios should be paired with 4-5 guys with 30% W/L ratios against 7-8 guys with 45-50% W/L records.

[ChrisOrange]

Joe Marberg, on 24 February 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

I keep waiting for the ELO to give me good matches. But so far the people I'm teamed up with seem to be terrible (I guess I must be terrible too) but the opposing force is usually not terrible and rampages over the top of us 8-0 (or 8-1 if I manage to kill something) or more normally 6-0 (because a couple of disconnects is the norm). My patience for being the cannon fodder in some one elses glorious orgy of destruction is getting kind of limited. And then there's the frequent black screens. Meh. Time to go play something else for a while.

Yah we were running into this. We get a lot of games where people think it's smart to cap on Conquest which puts us in too many 5vs7 or 5vs8 situations. If it were a team deathmatch mode with respawns...then yes you could be useful as a base capper...but the way conquest plays on a pug match needs to be with damage and kill strategies.

Maybe people in lights would complain that then they have nothing to do but a few lights running around serves as a great distraction to enemy pugs...but if they are running to cap points they are actively screwing their own team.

I would say one of every 15 conquest matches ends in a cap win (when you exclude Alpine.) Trying to fight that just allows the enemy team to divide and conquer. Almost every match I beg for the pug team to "win on kills nothing fancy please."

Edited by ChrisOrange, 24 February 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Zakie Chan, on 23 February 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

I was running my YLW for about 12 hrs yesterday in the tournament. I made it to 37 before I shut her down. Along the way I noticed a quick jump of 3 times more wins than losses. By the end when I was under 1:2.

The level of play was a fantastic increase. It made pugging for me much more rewarding and enjoyable as a whole. As mentioned people were working together and I faced very skilled opponents that were well coordinated and some had crazy accuracy. There were a few odd ball games (5 atlas vs mix of med/heavies) and a few where I felt like I had to carry people. But as a whole it made me want to 4 man less.

Yes there is a large amount of the 'optimal' mechs, but it is not much different than running 8mans. Pugging now seems to be a good place to practice dealing with the 'optimal' stuff.

wow yes i saw you A LOT yesterday running around in mediums, great fun playing with and against you!

[Moromillas]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is a clear summary, that I posted in another thread. I felt it might get buried amongst teh many posts there in, so I decided to turn it into a thread of it's own.

This is where I stopped reading.

[Kiiyor]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

TL DR? If you like the image below, go back to the top and read the entire post.

Well played sir. I mostly skipped over your post, but am now forced to revisit it in acknowledgement of your sheer tactical genius.