134 replies to this topic

[Eddrick]

Nonsense, on 24 February 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

ECM is probably fine. It's impossible to test whether or not it is with streaks in their current form.

Plus, most players are terrible and unable to adapt, so that's a factor.

You forgot about the ones that refuse to adapt.

Doc Holliday, on 24 February 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

So to sum it up, you really have no concept of how to figure out anything related to game balance, and you have nothing useful to contribute. I guess I don't get why you bothered posting.

I have played enough games were balance was off in one way or another, to not realy care if something is OP.

Earlyer World of Warcraft: A prime example would be the Death Knight's implementation in the "Wrath of the Lich King" expantion. They were a nightmare for most of the players. But, I didn't readly care. I instead went on a DK hunt with the counterpart of what they were based off of.

Armored Core 1,2,3 and 4: I generaly found myself never using the OP parts even before I knew what they were. I would just make a point to never use them when they were banned.

Pokemon: Anyone who has played any of the games know that balance was thrown out the window. I always went with my favorites. Which, have never been OP.

I'm sure there is more that I can't think of at the moment.

I go with the philosophy, "Bring what you like and make the most out of it". However, most of the time, I will go out of my way to not use something that is OP. Just for the sake of being fair. I also, enjoy challenge.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I'm glad to see some people can still fruitlessly type walls about ECM or to suggest ways to fix it. I remember the days I used to do that... a very long 2 months ago. Carry on, because while I'm sure everyone working at Piranha blocked me ages ago; they might actually read yours. Just remember to ignore the pro-ECM trolls that will flame bait then report you if you waste any of your time with them.

[Livewyr]

I'm sorry I missed replying to your post last night, was sleepy- so here goes.

Doc Holliday, on 24 February 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Well, you asked for my thoughts, and I gave them. Your criticism does nothing to change them.

Your point A changes very little, in reality. Back before I quit playing because of ECM, I almost always noticed the information disappearing from my minimap before I noticed the "low signal" indicator.

And I simply disagree with your point B. ECM should not do that much. That still leaves it way too powerful for the resources it takes. If you want it to retain that much functionality, it also needs to require more tonnage and/or more crit slots. It needs to be balanced such that it's actually a decision whether or not you should take it. Your changes would still leave it a no-brainer.

Like I said before, you can't simply look at ECM by itself. You have to compare it with other systems. Instead of just thinking about how to make ECM a bit more palatable, think about how it would actually be balanced compared to BAP. Think about how it would actually be balanced compared to AMS. Think about how it would actually be balanced compared to a DHS. Think about how it would be balanced compared to a SSRM2 or a medium laser. As long as ECM is an easy go-to choice above all equipment that requires similar tonnage and crit slots, it's too powerful.

Part A (BAP/low signal) is just small potatoes, but I think it might still have a role. (I would have little trouble wagering that most people don't notice they're being jammed until their HUD starts phasing and they get the low signal bars.)

Part B: I had a concern that it might be too weak given that the game is much more dynamic than TT (180 meters goes quick in this game) but upon further thinking I have an amendment/addition to my earlier thinking (which will probably sound a lot like yours.




BAP: Detects ALL mechs within 120 meters, extends sensor range 25%, and decreases lock on time. Most importantly, not given to EVERY mech.. give it to certain mechs; just like ECM.

ECM: Counters BAP, Artemis, TAG, NARC, and target sharing within 180 meters, and also other ECM's if in that mode. (also increases time to lock on for missiles as well as make the lock more fragile[less time off target loses lock])


Now:
Since ECM would no longer be the blanket nullification of missiles, I think we need to look at missile balance according to other weapons.

I think LRMs should:
-be reduced to 1.2-1.3 damage each.
-given a moderately faster flight time.
-given an original spread,
-given15% tighter spread from TAG (since TAG really won't be helping with Arrow IVs and such)
-given 35% better spread and Constant lock from NARC (unless ECM'd ofcourse)
-Given 35% tighter spread from Artemis, only if in LoS.

So in essence, by themselves, relatively weak, but given assistance from NARC/TAG/Artemis made pretty potent.

-----------------
Now, I've spent so much time looking through BT manuals that I've lost my train of thought.. hope I completed it..
your turn next.

[Doc Holliday]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I'm sorry I missed replying to your post last night, was sleepy- so here goes.



Part A (BAP/low signal) is just small potatoes, but I think it might still have a role. (I would have little trouble wagering that most people don't notice they're being jammed until their HUD starts phasing and they get the low signal bars.)

Part B: I had a concern that it might be too weak given that the game is much more dynamic than TT (180 meters goes quick in this game) but upon further thinking I have an amendment/addition to my earlier thinking (which will probably sound a lot like yours.




BAP: Detects ALL mechs within 120 meters, extends sensor range 25%, and decreases lock on time. Most importantly, not given to EVERY mech.. give it to certain mechs; just like ECM.

ECM: Counters BAP, Artemis, TAG, NARC, and target sharing within 180 meters, and also other ECM's if in that mode. (also increases time to lock on for missiles as well as make the lock more fragile[less time off target loses lock])


Now:
Since ECM would no longer be the blanket nullification of missiles, I think we need to look at missile balance according to other weapons.

I think LRMs should:
-be reduced to 1.2-1.3 damage each.
-given a moderately faster flight time.
-given an original spread,
-given15% tighter spread from TAG (since TAG really won't be helping with Arrow IVs and such)
-given 35% better spread and Constant lock from NARC (unless ECM'd ofcourse)
-Given 35% tighter spread from Artemis, only if in LoS.

So in essence, by themselves, relatively weak, but given assistance from NARC/TAG/Artemis made pretty potent.

-----------------
Now, I've spent so much time looking through BT manuals that I've lost my train of thought.. hope I completed it..
your turn next.

That sounds a lot better, except for restricting BAP to certain variants. There's no reason to do that. As for balancing LRMs, I don't think you should nerf them too drastically, instead I think you should do a small nerf accompanied with a buff to AMS. AMS after all takes exactly the same crits and tons as BAP and ECM, and should be considered a viable piece of equipment to take compared to either of the other two. Since AMS's sole purpose is to counter LRMs, it should necessarily be more effective at it than ECM.

[DocBach]

I think 1.3 - 1.5 damage would be way too much of a damage nerf. Even without ECM most players realize all you have to do is break lock and dart from cover to cover, they don't work reliably already before ECM unless your target is braindead.

[Livewyr]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

That sounds a lot better, except for restricting BAP to certain variants. There's no reason to do that. As for balancing LRMs, I don't think you should nerf them too drastically, instead I think you should do a small nerf accompanied with a buff to AMS. AMS after all takes exactly the same crits and tons as BAP and ECM, and should be considered a viable piece of equipment to take compared to either of the other two. Since AMS's sole purpose is to counter LRMs, it should necessarily be more effective at it than ECM.

Well, when it comes to LRMs, I'm thinking in terms of balancing against other weapons.

LRMs weigh 2,5,7,10 have a 1000 meter full damage range, and track targets
(compared to their ballistic and laser counterparts that's fairly balanced- but when it comes to damage... that is another story.)

in damage, a single LRM 20 is doing something like 36 damage if all missile hit (which is entirely possible with artemis and TAG)

36 damage is quite alot when you consider that that 36 damage has 1000 meter range, homes in on targets, and weighs 2/3s of a Gauss before ammo.

So far their counter has been to nerf the spread, but if you get caught in the open it doesn't take long for armor to be stripped off your mech everywhere. (making a mistake when facing a gauss is annoying and slightly painful, making a mistake against an LRM20 will be very painful.)

Thusly, I think giving LRMs a hefty damage nerf, but giving the upgrades a chance to make them devastating is a better way of dealing with them.

An LRM 20 doing a max of 26, and therefore really only doing about 15-18 because of spread normally (which is still nice), would be devastating if you added TAG and Artemis to it giving it 23-26 damage on the center parts of a mech.

This is balancing it in relation to ACs, PPCs, Lasers, and Gauss.. while giving it the capacity to be made much better than them, with counter-able upgrades.

[Doc Holliday]

You can't compare LRMs that way though.

First, like you already mentioned, they have a pretty big spread pattern.

Second, they have a minimum range, within which they are 100% useless.

Third, they are the only weapon system that gives the target a warning of incoming damage, and gives that target the chance to get behind cover before the missiles actually hit.

Fourth, they are the only weapon system that has a direct counter to reduce the amount of damage they do.

Yes, they are easier to use in the right circumstances than most weapons - but they have much bigger weaknesses than most weapons to make up for it.

Don't get me wrong, I despise LRMs and can get pretty frustrated and upset when I'm the target of several missile boats. I also never run them myself because I find them boring. Nevertheless, they have a place in the game and should not be nerfed to uselessness. I could see toning down the damage just a hair, maybe .1-.2 damage at the very most.

I think the real solution though is to tweak AMS. Honestly what I'd like to see is some way to make AMS take out less missiles from a smaller volley, and more from a larger one, so on the one hand it's more effective against LRM boats, but on the other hand, an LRM 5 or 10 by itself might still be useful as a support weapon on virtually any mech, if you want to give up something else for it. Perhaps the way to do this is to make AMS more or less sensitive depending on the volume of missiles incoming - if there's more missiles it starts responding sooner and takes more of them out, if there's less missiles it doesn't pick them up as quick, and so some still get through. I don't know if it's possible to implement something like that, but if it were I think that'd be pretty awesome.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 25 February 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Livewyr]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

You can't compare LRMs that way though.

First, like you already mentioned, they have a pretty big spread pattern.

Second, they have a minimum range, within which they are 100% useless.

Third, they are the only weapon system that gives the target a warning of incoming damage, and gives that target the chance to get behind cover before the missiles actually hit.

Fourth, they are the only weapon system that has a direct counter to reduce the amount of damage they do.

Yes, they are easier to use in the right circumstances than most weapons - but they have much bigger weaknesses than most weapons to make up for it.

Don't get me wrong, I despise LRMs and can get pretty frustrated and upset when I'm the target of several missile boats. I also never run them myself because I find them boring. Nevertheless, they have a place in the game and should not be nerfed to uselessness. I could see toning down the damage just a hair, maybe .1-.2 damage at the very most.

I think the real solution though is to tweak AMS. Honestly what I'd like to see is some way to make AMS take out less missiles from a smaller volley, and more from a larger one, so on the one hand it's more effective against LRM boats, but on the other hand, an LRM 5 or 10 by itself might still be useful as a support weapon on virtually any mech, if you want to give up something else for it. Perhaps the way to do this is to make AMS more or less sensitive depending on the volume of missiles incoming - if there's more missiles it starts responding sooner and takes more of them out, if there's less missiles it doesn't pick them up as quick, and so some still get through. I don't know if it's possible to implement something like that, but if it were I think that'd be pretty awesome.

LRMs are pretty strong and yes it does give you a missile warning, but now you get a warning of being targeted in general as well. (which I think should only come with BAP)

(personally I think the LRM warning should only be a part of BAP)

The problem with buffing AMS such that it is a good counter on its own, is that 2 of them together would be near impervious, a couple twin AMS Atlases, and Twin AMS Stalkers would create a unbelievable missile shield.

I would rather keep AMS where it is, and make LRMs less painful normally, but extremely painful with electronics buffs.

[Doc Holliday]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

LRMs are pretty strong and yes it does give you a missile warning, but now you get a warning of being targeted in general as well. (which I think should only come with BAP)

(personally I think the LRM warning should only be a part of BAP)

The problem with buffing AMS such that it is a good counter on its own, is that 2 of them together would be near impervious, a couple twin AMS Atlases, and Twin AMS Stalkers would create a unbelievable missile shield.

I would rather keep AMS where it is, and make LRMs less painful normally, but extremely painful with electronics buffs.

Nah, AMS has a LONG way to go before it's that effective. Right now it takes out maybe 3-4 missiles in a volley. Against a volley from even just 20 tubes, that's barely noticeable. And I just think nerfing/altering LRMs much is the wrong direction to try to fix them. If you just make them significantly less effective by default, no one will take them and a huge component of the game will be lost. I already never use them because I find them too ineffective for my play style.

[hammerreborn]

Zanathan, on 24 February 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

How is that making it OP in combat? It's just implying there isn't much choice in terms of equipment ...

Don't try and argue it. They'll cry as they always do.

You have one energy slot and .5 tons remaining and max armor and 2.0 heat efficiency. So what do you do? You put in a small laser of course.

SMALL LASERS OP WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO WITH .5 TONS AND 1 ENERGY SLOT! CASE...HA!

Edited by hammerreborn, 25 February 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Galathon Redd, on 24 February 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

It doesn't matter. The point was that at least they were ideas instead of whining, inviting worthwhile discussion instead of rampant complaining. You know, like how you spent the entire rest of your post whining about the OP's ideas without presenting any of your own...

Beat your dead horse somewhere else. This thread was mostly constructive until you came along.

Cause ECM is fine, ADAPT OR CRY! Lol.

This thread is full of crying, apparently.

And constructive requires you know, good ideas. Would you consider talking about demolishing a building using a single match constructive? No, because it's a terrible idea, like these ideas for ECM.

Edited by hammerreborn, 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[AegisKay]

Here's how I see ECM. If you get caught alone vs. a Streak Cat and an ECM Raven for example, you deserve whatever happens next. There are enough counters to ECM and there are now some great choices to make to affect how you play with or against it. I don't believe the PPC EMP burst should be increased. Its long enough to get a lock from LRM's and that's all it was protecting itself against really. Sure Streaks are great against light mechs but you aren't stopping an Atlas any time quickly with them. Personally, I don't have a problem with them, but again, I don't have a problem with many weapons in the game, except maybe a lack of ER Medium Laser. Then again that's clan tech so we'd need a reason for it I guess. If you can't beat ECM, or it affects you negatively then you haven't brought the right tool to hand. Also you probably need to stop going lone wolf on the rest of your team.

[Livewyr]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Nah, AMS has a LONG way to go before it's that effective. Right now it takes out maybe 3-4 missiles in a volley. Against a volley from even just 20 tubes, that's barely noticeable. And I just think nerfing/altering LRMs much is the wrong direction to try to fix them. If you just make them significantly less effective by default, no one will take them and a huge component of the game will be lost. I already never use them because I find them too ineffective for my play style.

It would make them significantly less effective than they are now, but right now I think they're far too powerful for their tonnage and crits.

Lets talk about 30 tons:
2 Gauss rifles
2 AC20s
3 LRM20s

2 Gauss does 30 damage (pinpoint) at 660 meters, doing less and less out to 1600 meters.
2 AC20s does 4 damage (pinpoint) at 270 meters, doing less and less out to 800 meters
3 LRM20s does 108 damage (splash) at 1000 meters, not going beyond that.

*crits meaning critical slots
Gauss Pros
Medium/high damage,pinpoint, Directfire 1200 speed, ammo doesn't explode. Medium/Long range.

AC20 Pros
High damage, pinpoint damage, Directfire 900 speed, weapon doesn't explode,

LRM20 Pros
Extremely High damage, Indirect fire, weapon doesn't explode, Very long range, tracks target (with lock) Medium weight, low/medium crits.
-----------------------------
Gauss cons
Weapon explodes/Low health, doesn't track targets, doesn't go over terrain. Medium crits,

AC20 cons
Ammo explodes, short range, doesn't track targets, doesn't go over terrain, HIGH crits, high heat

LRM20 cons
Ammo explodes, minimum range (180), slow projectile speed, warning for target, requires lock for tracking, high heat

-------------------------------------------------
the LRM20 outdoes the others in (significant) damage, range, weight, crits, and tracking ability. (100% accuracy if lock is maintained)

LRM20 is outdone at close range, and speed of attack (can be dodged due to warning)

I think its pros outweigh its cons in relation to the other two heavy weapons.
Currently they are still being used despite ECM because they're such fantastic weapons outside of ECM. I know I ran a Stalker with 4 LRM15s+Art and a tag, it would obliterate a full-health atlas in 2-3 salvos. Four LRM15s+Art weighs 2 tons more than two gauss..and does almost 4 times as much damage.. even with the spread (tightened by Art) , that is still doing more damage to a specific torso than two gauss are doing. I've seen stalkers with four LRM20s...144 damage, for less weight than 3 gauss...

I think if ECM was brought to where we discussed:
LRMs with 5pts less damage and faster projectile speed would still be viable. LRMs were never really meant to be predator weapons, but as they are, they are the APEX predator of weapons, currently they often require TAG, but if ECM was brought to where we want it, they would destroy everything. (Unless they were changed.)

AMS can get buffed a little bit, so long as it doesn't become 50% effective against a barrage.. 2 AMSs shouldn't be able to completely wipe out a barrage.

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Don't try and argue it. They'll cry as they always do.

You have one energy slot and .5 tons remaining and max armor and 2.0 heat efficiency. So what do you do? You put in a small laser of course.

SMALL LASERS OP WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO WITH .5 TONS AND 1 ENERGY SLOT! CASE...HA!

Funny, all you've done is whine and offer nothing constructive.

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Cause ECM is fine, ADAPT OR CRY! Lol.

This thread is full of crying, apparently.

And constructive requires you know, good ideas. Would you consider talking about demolishing a building using a single match constructive? No, because it's a terrible idea, like these ideas for ECM.

You're crying, you're baselessly complaining about something without thinking. That is whining.

AegisKay, on 25 February 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

Here's how I see ECM. If you get caught alone vs. a Streak Cat and an ECM Raven for example, you deserve whatever happens next. There are enough counters to ECM and there are now some great choices to make to affect how you play with or against it. I don't believe the PPC EMP burst should be increased. Its long enough to get a lock from LRM's and that's all it was protecting itself against really. Sure Streaks are great against light mechs but you aren't stopping an Atlas any time quickly with them. Personally, I don't have a problem with them, but again, I don't have a problem with many weapons in the game, except maybe a lack of ER Medium Laser. Then again that's clan tech so we'd need a reason for it I guess. If you can't beat ECM, or it affects you negatively then you haven't brought the right tool to hand. Also you probably need to stop going lone wolf on the rest of your team.

There are counters to ECM, but unlike AMS, BAP, or anything else, they require active player based counters while they just sit there and exist. (Appropriate rephrasing of common phrase: "an ounce of ECM is worth a pound of skill"

ECM does far more than anything and impacts the game more profoundly than anything else, and it requires nothing on the part of the player, just a couple tons and a couple crits of their mech.

I have a question for you: What do you think they should have Stealth Armor do when it arrives in the timeline?

[Galathon Redd]

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Cause ECM is fine, ADAPT OR CRY! Lol.

This thread is full of crying, apparently.

And constructive requires you know, good ideas. Would you consider talking about demolishing a building using a single match constructive? No, because it's a terrible idea, like these ideas for ECM.

Depends on the building. If it was in need of demolition, like is being claimed for ECM, it'd be a worthwhile discussion. One match is cheap and easy; a good idea on paper. If it wouldn't work, surely better ideas would be welcomed over people just pointing and bitching. Surely better arguments could have been made to the OP without debasing him and whining some more with no constructive value.

Also, whether or not his ideas were good or not is a matter of opinion. Are you suddenly claiming your opinions are the ones by which all opinions should be judged? And if so, who died and made you God?

[Doc Holliday]

I dunno, maybe LRMs are overpowered... but they've never really felt that way to me, aside from the short period where they had ridiculously vertical drops such that cover did almost nothing. At any rate, I feel they're balanced enough that any changes should be made in small steps and tested over weeks and months before another change. They're not an IWIN button like ECM.

[Livewyr]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I dunno, maybe LRMs are overpowered... but they've never really felt that way to me, aside from the short period where they had ridiculously vertical drops such that cover did almost nothing. At any rate, I feel they're balanced enough that any changes should be made in small steps and tested over weeks and months before another change. They're not an IWIN button like ECM.

They're "not" right now, because of ECM.. but if the ECM iWin button were removed, they would become just that.

We're discussing DRASTIC changes to ECM, I think similarly DRASTIC changes to the weapon group that ECM directly effects would be in order to prevent lopsiding in a different direction.

[hammerreborn]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I dunno, maybe LRMs are overpowered... but they've never really felt that way to me, aside from the short period where they had ridiculously vertical drops such that cover did almost nothing. At any rate, I feel they're balanced enough that any changes should be made in small steps and tested over weeks and months before another change. They're not an IWIN button like ECM.

LRMs only shine in Alpine because it's so open and the upper side has such a nice shooting point from that giant mountain. But then again, if any of the mediums+ ran AMS instead of trying to fit in that 3rd guass (I know that's not possible but if it could anyone who could would) there would be a lot less complaining about them.

[Beo Vulf]

I agree with your post. All the points you made have been brought up time after time, and the standard op response is L2p. What PGI did was give ECM both ECM and EECM capabilities. So in its current form the only real defense against ECM is ECM. That makes it a must have if your mech can equip it. There should be no must have item to equip on your mech.

[Noachian]

ECM is too much of an influence on the outcome of a match to not be considered in the match making process. I can deal with anything as long as the other team has to deal with it as well. Launching time after time while Pugging against teams carrying ECM, while my team has none has shown me that at least 80% of time the team with ECM will come out on top. Simply balancing out the number of units that carry ECM on both teams will level the playing field.

[Seanamal]

This particular horse is now being served in IKEA meatballs across Europe.