201 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Flanker is a role that only exists on paper or in people's heads.

So long as the objective is to kill the other guys first, Mechs need to be designed to do that - not sit on the sidelines and "tear away some armor so other people can do the real work". Every conversation about the role of mediums around here ends up going the same way. People think it's okay to do half as much work as the Assault next to them and call it a day.

Well, this works fine when you're weight matched in pugs and the other team has as many functionally useless Mechs as you do, but it falls apart in 8-man play (and presumably the new weight-mismatched ELO MM). When you have the same number of Mechs on each team, each member of your team needs to be able to do as much work as each member of the opposing team.

If that opposing team is made up of 8 Assaults, and your team is made up of 4 Assaults and 4 Mediums, the Mediums can't afford to "play support for the big boys" and shoot every couple of minutes from cover and call it harassing. There aren't enough big boys to support. Each of those Mediums needs to be capable of contributing as much as one of the enemy's Assaults, or they lose. Period.

Otherwise, Lladd hit the nail on the head.

Doesn't this suggest that there's something wrong with the game in it's current state then?
This isn't "8-Man Assault Mech Online" after all.

[Vlad Ward]

Fut, on 25 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Doesn't this suggest that there's something wrong with the game in it's current state then?
This isn't "8-Man Assault Mech Online" after all.

Sure, but that's a different discussion entirely.

[mekabuser]

kick ***?

[Cferre]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

But the problem with this idea in Mechwarrior:Online is everyone wants the kill, no one wants to just put some damage on something and ignore it after... the KILL is king for players. And that's the wrong mindset from an in-universe perspective. but as a game, what can you do?

Don't play a medium i guess. Since others classes fill the roll much better.

[Cferre]

SuperJoe, on 25 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Their role is pretty much to be fodder for all the splatcats and what not out there. I'll keep on playing with my trebs and hunchbacks though cuz i hate myself. lol

Same here lol.

[mekabuser]

ive probably spent more time in my cent than any other mech.. Specifically, becoming proficient with the ac10 in the gun arm. I protect the gun and make an effort to keep utilizing it once the battle becomes short range and the med laz and srm come into play.
Its somewhat fast, can rotate and hit anything at any range and if used properly is a very rewarding ride.
Ive set myself up pretty good in the mwo universe.. I dealt with being 100 % pug, and have become "fairly " proficient with what are regarded as underwhelming mechs.
As I move onto new mechs, i find myself tearing it up more and more <new elo helps im sure> , but it took me a long time to find my feet in this game.
Now that I have a good foundation, the battlefield is feeling more like home, no matter what I bring to the field.
Keep searching for what works for you, hint, you can tear it up in most any chassis.

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

The only really good ones are the fast Treb and fast Cent, which are pretty useless in any other role (certainly as support in a brawl, they'll be severely undergunned and the XL means they're dead after a single Alpha from a good Assault or Heavy).

Most mediums are rolling around 90, same speed as most Heavies but without the armor/guns. The fast Mediums (CN9-D, Trenchy) can go 130, but give up their weaponry advantage to mount the larger engine. On top of that, their significantly larger hitboxes makes those XLs a huge liability compared to their Light cousins.

Oh come now, 55 damage alphas from a splat cent is undergunned?

Most heavies I see don't run 90 kp/h, either (let alone be capable of it. Cat only gets 86.4 with speed tweak, and needs an XL to be able to carry anything, and Phract gets 86 as well with speed tweak, once again with an absolutely massive engine, which must also be XL).

Regardless of that small speed difference, mediums can get 86 just fine, and the 4sp, for instance, reaches 92.7 and still can mount 55 damage worth of items and the ammo and heatsinks to accomplish that, WITHOUT using an XL engine. Similar for the centurion, which can also put out 55 damage alphas while moving quickly AND without an XL engine.

So no Vlad, I'm not really sure were you're getting this from, especially considering how effectively we manage to use mediums in 8 man play.

[OneEyed Jack]

Jade Kitsune, on 25 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

But the problem with this idea in Mechwarrior:Online is everyone wants the kill, no one wants to just put some damage on something and ignore it after... the KILL is king for players. And that's the wrong mindset from an in-universe perspective. but as a game, what can you do?

Not true. In reality, if people actually try using the "balanced" builds that are always bandied about, they are completely ineffective. Take, for instance, the stock loadout of a standard Shadow Hawk SHD-2H. AC5/LRM5/SRM2/ML. In a really, really good game, a good pilot could probably get 2-300 damage from this build, allowing for misses and probably not getting every round of ammo off if taking reasonable shots. Considering the armor levels in the game, and that Engine/Gyro crits can't take out a mech, 2-300 isn't even considered decent damage.

It's not always about getting the kill, but about contributing to the win.

[Coralld]

Lights, Heavies, and Assault may get the glory, but Mediums know how to get the girls do to the fact that their pilots have balls of steel. Every time I drop in my HBK-4G Gauss back and I see my team up against a Steiner scout lances, I say to my self, Challenge accepted. Whats really funny is that I end up doing very well most of the time.

[Muffinator]

ferranis, on 25 February 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

The simple problem is that, anything a medium could do, a light/heavy does better.

My mediums have more armour and firepower than a light and more speed than a heavy. They can choose their targets, make a pass delivering damage and peel away again. They can use cover and disengage easily if they need to, which makes up for lower armour. They can circle an enemy and keep him distracted so he is less effective. They can protect assaults from lights, letting the assault bring firepower to bear where it is needed. An assault + a good medium is better than 2 assaults because they make up for each others weaknesses.

[Vlad Ward]

Orzorn, on 25 February 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Oh come now, 55 damage alphas from a splat cent is undergunned?

Most heavies I see don't run 90 kp/h, either (let alone be capable of it. Cat only gets 86.4 with speed tweak, and needs an XL to be able to carry anything, and Phract gets 86 as well with speed tweak, once again with an absolutely massive engine, which must also be XL).

Regardless of that small speed difference, mediums can get 86 just fine, and the 4sp, for instance, reaches 92.7 and still can mount 55 damage worth of items and the ammo and heatsinks to accomplish that, WITHOUT using an XL engine. Similar for the centurion, which can also put out 55 damage alphas while moving quickly AND without an XL engine.

So no Vlad, I'm not really sure were you're getting this from, especially considering how effectively we manage to use mediums in 8 man play.

We use them effectively when we have either a significant skill advantage over our opponents, the element of surprise/shock/awe, or both on our side. They literally melt on the field when we run across really good teams.

The difference between 86 kph and 92 kph is zilch, and neither is really fast enough for evasive purposes anyways. Splat Cents are pretty much the premier Medium at the moment, but suffer from massive hitboxes and terrible armor caps. The entire Hunchback line is pretty much a crapshoot; they're slow, big, and way too easy to kill for their weight.

That's really the Achilles' heel of the majority of Mediums at the moment. They're positively massive compared to their Light cousins, and they just don't have the armor to take a punch or the speed to dodge one. The fast ones excel at their Light hunting roles, but the slow ones (the vast majority of Mediums) can't even do that.

[Polojilarious]

I like to divide my mechs into classes more by speed than actual weight.

So, effective lights go 125kph - 150kph and have light armour and guns. Effective heavies go 64kph-95kph and have heavy armour and guns. By my logic, that means a medium mech should be going somewhere between 95-125 kph and have guns somewhere between a heavy and a light.

So, unless you're really slowing down to add huge guns, cicadas count as lights, and dragons count as either fast heavies or slow mediums.

The hunchbacks and non max-engine centurions outside of the 9D both move at heavy-class speeds, but don't really have the guns or armor to back it up.

So for me, the real mediums of MWO are trebuchets and the fastest of the dragons and cents.

They mount reasonable firepower for their weight, they move a good 30kph faster than your average heavy, and they excel at flanking, capping, and harassing. Basically, they do what lights do, but they have enough armour to take a hit or two and have enough guns to focus down a mech in a reasonable amount of time.

[Coralld]

Perhaps PGI should implement what I and some others on the forums have suggested before with a weight limit. You would definitely see more mediums of all stripes being used more.

[L1f3H4ck]

Hunchback 4SP junkie here...

I'm not saying that mediums are the best, but they can be very effective when piloted right. Since they don't excel at anything, the key here is combining their strengths. Once you manage to use their above average speed and respectable firepower in concert, there's nothing you can't hunt down and kill.

Lights are quicker, sure. But a medium is way more heavily armed and armored. Once you figure out how to outmaneuver a light, you can overpower it quickly. Hint: Circle-strafing is not the answer.

Assaults and heavies will kill you if you try to chestbump with them, so don't. Run, turn, use another angle and you can pick them apart.

But by all means, continue to view mediums as garbage. It's part of the secret to our sucess. It's amazing how many players ignore me while I'm tearing through their armor with 50 point alphas.

[Vlad Ward]

Garbage? Nah. Weaker than they should be? Absolutely.

I don't ignore Mediums at all. In fact, I do the opposite. I pick them off first with a single Alpha apiece (that's all it takes to cripple or kill a Medium when you're driving an Assault), and then go back to work on the rest of their team when they're at a huge numerical disadvantage.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 25 February 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[Major Derps]

HBK-4SP;
•Endo Steel
•Max XL engine with max DHS
•2 additional DHS
•2 LLs
•2 MLs
•2 SRM6s (3 tonnes ammo)
•Full armor, divided 3/4 front, 1/4 back

Runs at about 92 Kph with speed tweak (number's off the top of my head, not 100% sure), and can keep up with most.
Scores between 400-600 damage, with 0-3 kills.
Will 1v1 out brawl any mech below heavy, and will destroy anything else whilst assisting team mates. Provides effective fire out to 500m, whilst being dangerous in brawling range.

[Vlad Ward]

Mokey Mot, on 25 February 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

HBK-4SP;
•Endo Steel
•Max XL engine with max DHS
•2 additional DHS
•2 LLs
•2 MLs
•2 SRM6s (3 tonnes ammo)
•Full armor, divided 3/4 front, 1/4 back

Runs at about 92 Kph with speed tweak (number's off the top of my head, not 100% sure), and can keep up with most.
Scores between 400-600 damage, with 0-3 kills.
Will 1v1 out brawl any mech below heavy, and will destroy anything else whilst assisting team mates. Provides effective fire out to 500m, whilst being dangerous in brawling range.

I would kill that walking target in a single Alpha strike. It doesn't even have to be accurate with your XL engine.

[Padic]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that, unlike lights, (fast) mediums carry enough armor and firepower to slam on the breaks and dump a pinpoint alpha into the rear armor of their target.

I find that heavies are slow and clumsy enough that they're basically obligated to achieve kills by blasting through the thickest part of their opponent's defenses. My Cent-D need not shoot through center torso armor very often (at least, not when I'm making good decisions).

This makes for an opportunity to play a medium as an assassin.

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

I would kill that walking target in a single Alpha strike. It doesn't even have to be accurate with your XL engine.

Also, while I'm here - a big enough alpha will kill lots of stuff. This does not strike me as a particularly meaningful statement.

[armyof1]

With ELO ignoring weight-class matching the real mediums that can't up their speed with XL engines are the ones suffering the most. I've been playing mediums most of all classes in my HBK-4SP before going "big medium" with Dragons and now focusing on Jenners. There is simply nothing my HBK-4SP can do that my JR7-D can't do better. What I lose when going from 2xsrm6 to 2xsmr4 and a little armor is a massive difference in speed, agility and being a way smaller target. Those three things in combination hugely increases your chances to survive. I'd take my JR7-D in any battle over my 4SP, and AFAIK I have yet to reach 100 matches with Jenners compared to 6-700 using a 4SP.

The only good mediums are those running large XL engines, like CN9D zipping around at 130kph and act basically like a big light. There are just two ways to go if you want to be successful in MWO and that's either with a lot of firepower and armor, or a lot of speed. Being in the middle makes you a target for both sides. And please don't put up a screenshot of how you managed that one time to dominate with a std engine medium, if you'd gone heavier or lighter I can almost guarantee that you'd do even better.

Edited by armyof1, 25 February 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 25 February 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

That's really the Achilles' heel of the majority of Mediums at the moment. They're positively massive compared to their Light cousins, and they just don't have the armor to take a punch or the speed to dodge one. The fast ones excel at their Light hunting roles, but the slow ones (the vast majority of Mediums) can't even do that.

I can at least agree with them being too large. The Centurion (and Trebuchet is a bit too much as well) is huge. I'd say the Hunchback is the most properly sized of all of them, as I can actually hide it behind a two story building pretty well. If you use the buildings on Forest Colony right, you can take out Atlases because they can't shoot back due to their lower weapon mounts.

But no, I'd still have to disagree on every other point. I strongly feel that mediums have their place, even in 8 mans. As with anything, too much of it is a bad thing (melting mediums), but they have a place and a role, I think.

Edited by Orzorn, 25 February 2013 - 08:54 PM.