152 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

All players in this game are team players.

You know those 7 blue triangles that spawn around you at the start of a match? That's your team. You play with them whether you like it or not (regardless of whether or not you choose to coordinate with them). Cherry-picking them before the match begins or meeting them randomly in-game does not change the fact that they are your team. Dropping without a team is physically impossible unless somehow all 7 of them DC before the round begins.

Edited by FupDup, 26 February 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[grayson marik]

Kraven Kor, on 26 February 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

There have been a few players, myself one, who worry that lobbies would lead to stat-manipulation and farming.

It isn't so much "I don't want them" as much as "they won't work in the current setup of MWO."

So long as the game is set up such that players need to "grind" XP and CBills and unlocks and such, then some type of random matchmaker is necessary. In my opinion.

Community Warfare will be particularly difficult to make work fairly if they were to move to a lobby system where you can pick a server or somehow choose who you will be fighting against.

Again, I post a quotation from an other thread by shankoholic, you should know it kraven ^^:

"I disagree with you.

Just think the farming aspect through...

It's just too much effort:

1. gather enough people willing to farm without having fun while doing it...

2. ensure the farming works and everyone plays by the rules...

3. Keep it up for long enough so it's rewarding (also keep the teams together)

4. No player can possibly be willing to let him self be killed 8 times just to get 8 kills (thats how you would have to do the farming..) PUGing is much more rewarding

5. It's propably not much fun, so people will get bored pretty pretty soon...


I could go on but I think I made my point...

If you want to farm cbills its much more effective to get in a 4vs4 with PUGs filling up the empty places, than setting up farming matches...


As I said, think it through...

And how do you think these people could profit from it?

Remember:

In a match, 8vs.8, player A1 could kill the players B1-B8 in the first round and score 8 Kills at all.

When it's Team B's turn, player A1 would get killed 8 times in a row, by the players B1-B8...
( yes, you would have to do it that way, otherwise it would be hard to find another team willing to do this with you...)

So after 16 rounds of getting killed 8 times and 7 times watching his teammates having all the fun,
player A1's k/d ratio would be 8:8 = 1 (if he hasn't had any kills or deats before)

Also you have to keep in mind that every single death you suffer has more influence on your k/d ratio than a single kill...


Let me do the math for you:


Player A: 20 kills, 4 deaths, k/d: ( 20 : 4 = ) 5


after 1 "k/d improval match":


Player A: 28 kills, 12 deaths, k/d: ( 28 : 12 = ) 2.33...




I'm pretty sure nobody would try it that way... "

[Kraven Kor]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Perhaps a lobby that only allows you to setup your own team from in-game would be better. Just throwing out ideas here, I'm sure there are other ways where you can make a lobby work without having it become an exploit.

And if they can do that it would be infinitely better than what we have, really.

I really do think it would be best to do something along these lines:

1. Players form a group and place themselves in a ready status. Lone Wolves opt whether they want to fill up groups or play in only the solo queue.

2.. Matchmaker matches any formed and ready teams with another formed and ready team of approximately the same weight / value / ELO average / number of players. Once two groups are matched, any open slots are filled by smaller groups, or Lone Wolves. If one team is a group of 4 plus a group of 2 plus 2 lone wolves, the other team would have to be a group of 4 and a group of 2 + 2 lone wolves as well.

3. For every group + group match formed, matchmaker then forms a match made of only lone wolves (from the "solo only" queue.)

4. Once full and ready, match launches and shows the players the upcoming map, allowing them to select one of their four ready or "selected" mechs for that map (letting you set up your 4 mechs such that you don't launch on Caustic in your 6x PPC Stalker...)

5. Finally, outside the matchmaker queue entirely, would be "simulator matches" or something where you can put yourself in a lobby and chat with other players or teams to set up a custom match. This should have a lot of options for the match - restrictions on certain equipment, minimum and maximum tonnage, what map and game mode to fight on, etc. However, in this match mode, you earn no XP, no GXP, no CBills, and the match has no effect on your recorded stats. Possibly separate stats could be kept on such matches.

This final option would let us have the custom matches and run our own tournaments and ladders and such, outside the matchmaker queue, without it leading to exploits or farming.

Come Community Warfare, there would then be a third queue for CW matches.

[Kraven Kor]

grayson marik, on 26 February 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Again, I post a quotation from an other thread by shankoholic, you should know it kraven ^^:

"I disagree with you.

Just think the farming aspect through...

It's just too much effort:

:stuff:

I'm pretty sure nobody would try it that way... "

All they would need to do is set up alt accounts for the losing team. Player A does his 8 kill run, then plays on an alt account while letting the other guys get their runs.

I don't think it would be widespread, but it would happen.

Again, I'm all for a lobby system or whatever, all I am saying is that it needs to be set up such that it cannot be exploited.

[Rebas Kradd]

OneEyed Jack, on 26 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

If a lobby that allows players to pick their opponents is ever added, then the people demanding it because they "just want to play their way" will also want rewards for doing so. I mean, why would they just play for fun what they demanded to be able to play for fun? That wouldn't make sense! Rather, they'll want even greater rewards, because they're "making it challenging" so it takes longer and they can't farm as well... the same as they demanded when the 8-man queue opened.

I disagree with the way you've generalized this. I've been playing PC games for 14 years, in every genre of game, and I can say that there are tons of people for whom organized competitive play is often its own reward. It lets clubs spring up. It leads to tournaments. It allows for creative events. They can create their OWN rewards within their own groups for such stuff. They build their own identity and community around the idea, because they simply enjoy playing together.

I don't know about team players being a "tiny minority" like you said. I think that's more of a sound bite that's convenient for your argument, and I think that the presence of so many people asking for a lobby calls your generalization at least somewhat into question.

I'd also point out that while casual players may (or may not) be comprising the majority of the game population right now, they won't be in three years. The serious players will be.

[PhoenixFire55]

ferranis, on 26 February 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Nope, you want to make the game better for you, be honest.

Everyone doesn't exclude me or people like me.

If smth makes game better for some people and worse for others it is not improving the game. Smth that improves the game improves it for most people. Obviousely here we have a lot of people who are saying that ELO is good and a lot of people who are saying ELO is bad. As we have no option to choose if we want ELO to affect our matchmaking or not and as it made game worse for a lot of people (including me) I will oppose it.

I bring arguments that show that ELO isn't fair. People who are opposing me so hard only bring argument that I care about myself and my wins ratio. I can say same about them.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

I think most people are crying so against Premades, teams and others want, prefer a single player game, or a PvE like in some MMOs (is what probably the factor massive multiplayer??), or just multiplayer opponents who like to behavioral AI bots uDN surprised that their years of TT or single-player experience here no use .. the Dev Questions there were people who were disappointed massive that it will provide us with never a single player or PvE mode, maybe you should read up first where a train runs, before getting.

translated from german
ich glaube ,die meisten die so gegen Premades, teams und anderes weinen ,wollen ,am liebsten ein Singleplayergame,oder ein PvE wie in einigen MMOs (wofür steht wohl der Faktor massive Multiplayer ????) ,oder nur Multiplayer Gegner die sich wie AI Bots verhalten udn sich wundern ,dass ihre jahrelange TT oder Singleplayer erfahrung hier nichts nützt ..Bei den Dev Questions gab es ja Leute die massiv enttäuscht waren ,dass es hier nie einen Singleplayer oder PvE modus geben wird ,vieleicht sollte man vorher erstmal lesen ,wohin ein Zug fährt, bevor man einsteigt

[PhoenixFire55]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Why do you not say a word about the numbers i showed you.
They all based on your statement and numbers ...
Please show me the math behind your conclusion and show me that iam wrong.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

4x 4 man influenceing 80% games happens with probability 0.192. So they will still most likely influence less games then they theoretically can.

Influencing a game and PUG-stomping a game are different things. I was trying to show that real PUG-stomps of 8 people from SAME premade working together are very rare occasions.

- If there are 4 people from one unit and 4 people from another or 4 groups of 2 people from all different units it is a different situation.
- Solo-players always complained about getting stomped by 8 people from same unit either just grouped up (in closed beta) or sync-dropped. If two groups of 4 people from same unit will drop into one game but into different teams then by your logic they will 'influence' the game, but same time PUG-stomp will never happen, again - different situation.

Your logic is correct, but it is somewhat different from what I meant to show.

I'm currently holding my fort in various topics ... takes a little time to answer every accusation you know

[Thirdstar]

Rebas Kradd, on 26 February 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I'd also point out that while casual players may (or may not) be comprising the majority of the game population right now, they won't be in three years. The serious players will be.

No sorry. It won't. This has never been the case with any MOG in the history of gaming. It won't be here either.

WoW - majority are casuals
WoT - majority are casuals
LoL - majority are casuals
LoL, DoTA, TF2, Battlefield, Call of Duty, STO, DCUO, CoH, LOTRO

The ONLY exception I can think of to this rule is EVE

[PhoenixFire55]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Summary:

PUGs should stop being PUGs, then they'd be happy. Why? Because I said so.

Also I wish all the casuals would just leave this game so that it dies.

HOW are you so thick headed?

Following your logic ...

Football should be played by PUG teams, just because there are more random people then professional players.
Wars should be fought by PUG armies, for the same reason.
Fires should be dealt with by PUG of people living nearby, for the same reason.

This game is one of those things that has TEAM concept.

Football is played by PUG teams, but those teams can never beat professional teams.
Wars are fought by PUG armies, but those armies are always inferior to professional ones.
Fires are stopped by PUG of people when there is no other option, but professional firefighters are by far more effective in that regard.

Everyone is free to play this game, just don't cry that you are outplayed in a team-based game when you play it on your own. If you are not a team person then this game is probably not for you.

You keep twisting what I have said and keep making it personal. You are not making your point any stronger doing that.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 26 February 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Gallowglas]

So long as you aren't a jerk about it and aren't exploiting, all that someone raging or crying over a match should tell you is that you did your job well enough that it made your opponent feel insignificant. A team that is experienced and works well together SHOULD seem a little cheesy. If it doesn't, there's room for improvement. Ideally, the coordinated actions of four people should beat out four random players every time.

[Galenit]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

4x 4 man influenceing 80% games happens with probability 0.192. So they will still most likely influence less games then they theoretically can.

How do you find the 0,192 and what does it mean?
Theoretically they can influence up to 80% but most likely they will influence 40-60% of the games. (Must look in a dictionary to find the english word for it: gaussian distribution).
But nevertheless they influence more games (over 20%) then they are (20%) in this example.

Edited by Galenit, 26 February 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Thirdstar]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Following your logic ...

Football should be played by PUG teams, just because there are more random people then professional players.
Wars should be fought by PUG armies, for the same reason.
Fires should be dealt with by PUG of people living nearby, for the same reason.

This game is one of those things that has TEAM concept.

Football is played by PUG teams, but those teams can never beat professional teams.
Wars are fought by PUG armies, but those armies are always inferior to professional ones.
Fires are stopped by PUG of people when there is no other option, but professional firefighters are by far more effective in that regard.

Everyone is free to play this game, just don't cry that you are outplayed in a team-based game when you play it on your own. If you are not a team person then this game is probably not for you.

You keep twisting what I have said and keep making it personal. You are not making your point any stronger doing that.

None of your examples have anything to do with online gaming, I honestly don't even what that has to do with the discussion.

The only person crying here is YOU. You're the one who's angry that PUGs without comms are now beating your team. Why are you so mad at being outplayed? I've said I'm quite happy with Elo because I'm having fun and the matches seem fairer, I lose plenty and therefore get outplayed plenty.

You've only repeated that 50/50 WL is unfair. With no further qualifications. You've then continued to harp on and on about TEAM GAME as if everyone doesn't end up in teams in our matches anyway.

I can't argue with someone who says the moon is made of cheese. There's no way to refute that other than simply shaking your head.

Edited by Thirdstar, 26 February 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

How do you find the 0,192 and what does it mean?

We need to distribute 4 premade groups into 5 games.
1st group can be placed anywhere.
2nd group has the 4/5 chance to end up in a different game.
3rd group has the 3/5 chance to end up in a dfferent game.
4th group has the 2/5 chance to end up in a different game.

2/5 * 3/5 * 4/5 = ~ 0.192

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Theoretically they can influence up to 80% but most likely they will influence 40-60% of the games. (Must look in a dictionary to find the english word for it: gaussian distribution).
But nevertheless they influence more games (over 20%) then they are (20%) in this example.

True, but as I said, 'influencing' a match (in your logic influence = be in a match) and PUG-stomping (in my logic haveing 8 people from SAME unit on SAME team without haveing ANY premades on the other team) are different things.

[grayson marik]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

No sorry. It won't. This has never been the case with any MOG in the history of gaming. It won't be here either.

WoW - majority are casuals
WoT - majority are casuals
LoL - majority are casuals
LoL, DoTA, TF2, Battlefield, Call of Duty, STO, DCUO, CoH, LOTRO

The ONLY exception I can think of to this rule is EVE

If the majority are casuals is entirely NOT the point here.

the points are:

will a lobby add avalue to the game? --> indeed
will a lobby at the very least help to ease the pugstomp problem? --> except from the few real jerks among the teams, they will gladly avoid the pug qeue so: yes it will

will a lobby influence the pug experience in any negative way? --> nope it wont!


And a last side not for all the number pickers:

If the team players are such a tiny microscopic fraction of the community, that they can be forgotten and dismissed until 2016 when the last little feature of CW made it to the game, as many of you suggest:

How can such a tiny microscopic, irrelevant fraction, not even worth a small feature to set up matches properly any time sooner than armageddon have such a big roflstomping impact on the pug queue?

Please stop dismissing us as being freaks who want to break your game! Instead we want to improve the game for everyone. Ok, with a lobby a bit more for us than for you pugs... but not ONLY for us.
The ability for us to do our thing will be the chance four you to have more fair matches. There is absolutely no reason for all this ( excuse me ) "my daddy is stronger than yours, my ***** is longer than yours" -> Bull.s.hit!

Edited by grayson marik, 26 February 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Asakara]

I continue to believe the solution to the pug vs premade issue would be to implement factions, initially in a bare bones fashion.

Everyone must pick one of the following:
1) Be a part of one of the 5 houses (Kurita, Marik, etc..)
2) Be a part of a player run unit (DHB, ACES, Clan Jade Wolf, etc..)
3) Be a part of the Lone Wolves faction

People who decide to be part of one of the houses only play against other houses. Max group size is 4 (or 3 or whatever). There is no minimum. If there are not enough people from your house to make an 8 man team, additional players will be pulled from the Lone Wolves faction to fill in the gaps.

People who decide to be a part of a player run unit only play against other player run units. Max group size is 8 (later 12). Minimum group size is 2. If there are not enough people from your house to make an 8 (or 12) man team, additional players will be pulled from the Lone Wolves faction to fill in the gaps.

People who decide to be a part of the Lone Wolves faction chose to be there (with possible XP and C-Bill incentives). They can not form a group (or maybe a group of 2 or whatever). They will be pulled into any match which needs more people, which could be house vs house or player run unit vs player run unit, otherwise they just drop against each other.

This would:
1) Generally keep pugs vs pugs
2) Generally keep premades vs premades
3) Allow premades with less than 8 at any given moment to still immediately participate in 8 v 8 matches

Optionally, they could allow a person in a house or player run unit to flag themselves as a "free agent". When they do this they may not group and temporarily join the Lone Wolves faction (with their restrictions and benefits) so they can still do drops even if they have zero friends online.

With that in place community warfare, loyalty points, system issued contracts / missions should be right around the corner. Top it off with Solaris (Free For All's and team Death Matches) for Lone Wolves and I would be one happy MechWarrior.

My $0.02.

Edited by Asakara, 26 February 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[grayson marik]

Asakara, on 26 February 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I continue to believe the solution to the pug vs premade issue would be to implement factions, initially in a bare bones fashion.

Everyone must pick one of the following:
1) Be a part of one of the 5 houses (Kurita, Marik, etc..)
2) Be a part of a player run unit (DHB, ACES, Clan Jade Wolf, etc..)
3) Be a part of the Lone Wolves faction

People who decide to be part of one of the houses only play against other houses. Max group size is 4 (or 3 or whatever). There is no minimum. If there are not enough people from your house to make an 8 man team, additional players will be pulled from the Lone Wolves faction to fill in the gaps.

People who decide to be a part of a player run unit only play against other player run units. Max group size is 8 (later 12). Minimum group size is 2. If there are not enough people from your house to make an 8 (or 12) man team, additional players will be pulled from the Lone Wolves faction to fill in the gaps.

People who decide to be a part of the Lone Wolves faction chose to be there (with possible XP and C-Bill incentives). They can not form a group (or maybe a group of 2 or whatever). They will be pulled into any match which needs more people, which could be house vs house or player run unit vs player run unit, otherwise they just drop against each other.

This would:
1) Generally keep pugs vs pugs
2) Generally keep premades vs premades
3) Allow premades with less than 8 at any given moment to still immediately participate in 8 v 8 matches

Optionally, they could allow a person in a house or player run unit to flag themselves as a "free agent". When they do this they may not group and temporarily join the Lone Wolves faction (with their restrictions and benefits) so they can still do drops even if they have zero friends online.

With that in place community warfare, loyalty points, system issued contracts / missions should be right around the corner. Top it off with Solaris (Free For All's and team Death Matches) for Lone Wolves and I would be one happy MechWarrior.

My $0.02.

Nicely thought pal, but the implementation nightmare to get this up and running with all the variables coming into play for the matchmaker... good lord!
But still, I like some of the stuff - very.

For a lobby on the other hand, there is no impact on the MM implementation so the dev time to get it up is laughable compared to the virginlike behavior of PGI against implementing one in time.

Edited by grayson marik, 26 February 2013 - 09:47 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

None of your examples have anything to do with online gaming, I honestly don't even what that has to do with the discussion.

All my examples have everything to do with teamwork. And teamwork is what this game is, if you refuse to see it, crawl back to CoD.

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

The only person crying here is YOU. You're the one who's angry that PUGs without comms are now beating your team. Why are you so mad at being outplayed? I've said I'm quite happy with Elo because I'm having fun and the matches seem fairer, I lose plenty and therefore get outplayed plenty.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

You keep twisting what I have said and keep making it personal. You are not making your point any stronger doing that.

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

You've only repeated that 50/50 WL is unfair. With no further qualifications. You've then continued to harp on and on about TEAM GAME as if everyone doesn't end up in teams in our matches anyway.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1962855
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1962965
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1963079
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1962360
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1962017
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1961779
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1961731

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I can't argue with someone who says the moon is made of cheese. There's no way to refute that other than simply shaking your head.

Self-criticism is good.

[grayson marik]

Come on guys, fight your animosities in a mech... get into a match, challenge each other and fight.


Ahh well, wont work, there is no lobby... darn. Well, I guess you both will have to keep fighting on the forums instead....

[krash27]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Following your logic ...

Football should be played by PUG teams, just because there are more random people then professional players.
Wars should be fought by PUG armies, for the same reason.
Fires should be dealt with by PUG of people living nearby, for the same reason.

This game is one of those things that has TEAM concept.

Football is played by PUG teams, but those teams can never beat professional teams.
Wars are fought by PUG armies, but those armies are always inferior to professional ones.
Fires are stopped by PUG of people when there is no other option, but professional firefighters are by far more effective in that regard.

Everyone is free to play this game, just don't cry that you are outplayed in a team-based game when you play it on your own. If you are not a team person then this game is probably not for you.

You keep twisting what I have said and keep making it personal. You are not making your point any stronger doing that.

Hmmm, how many of us in our younger years for some of us, would play a pick up game of football after school and on weekends? Lots of us that are not pro football players have played PUG of football that does not have pro players involved.

The american green berets, they are a force multiplier who go into a country and set up these normaly third world countries with PUG armies consisting of villagers that want to fight for their country, they are not pro soldiers, just people picked up off the street that want to fight.

As far as fires go, wouldn't volunteer fireman be similar to a PUG?

Just saying