209 replies to this topic

[EgoSlayer]

Viper69, on 26 February 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I dont understand why the stalker doesnt have remarkable twisting ability like the catapult. The reason the catapult was given fast twisting and a high twist arc was because of it not having functional arms. Well the Stalker is in the same boat yet its twist is reduced to a craptastic amount and its twist speed is lacking. So in my opinion either reduce the catapults twist or increase the stalkers degree of twist.

Because in TT the Catapult can fire everything in its "arms" directly behind itself. Since that can't be duplicated in game, it has high twist to emulate that ability. The Stalker can't, and thus isn't granted that high twist ability in MWO.

[Gigastrike]

They really should have a torso twist reduction. Catapults were never supposed to be brawlers, and should have a disadvantage at close range.

[Franchi]

See sig.

Tears, tasty tasty TEARS!!!

[Rhent]

Gigastrike, on 26 February 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

They really should have a torso twist reduction. Catapults were never supposed to be brawlers, and should have a disadvantage at close range.

Really? Who said Catapults are'nt brawlers in MWO? Oh right, your mind, you think it. So you write it out. Guess what, it ain't true. All mechs can be snipers, brawlers or mix. If you can't comprehend it, I suggest you start doing some theorycrafting to understand how MWO actually works.

Edited by Rhent, 26 February 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[Garfuncle]

Quote

All mechs can be snipers, brawlers or mix. If you can't comprehend it, I suggest you start doing some theorycrafting to understand how MWO actually works.

This is an asinine pipe-dream and you know it, or you know nothing of basic game design. Not every mech can do any role, that certainly isn't the case now, obviously, and it will never be the case. Given MWO's class-based system, Lights will always skirmish, scout better than assaults. Mediums are the closest thing we have to generalists, ranging from fire-support to dipping in and out of brawls, heavies are the primary brawlers, have great support potential, but obviously can't scout, and assaults are the big tanks and the big guns, but they are the slowest, have zero scout potential whatsoever, and almost always must commit to a fight due to their lack of mobility.

This 'limitless design' crap you are trying to sell does not exist and will not exist. But right now we still do have obvious problems with mech roles that are being implemented, and some mechs trample over other classes' roles and make them look obsolete. A.K.A the Cat that does too many things far too well by stepping into other mech's roles.

So get your head out of the sand or at least grasp some simple game design logic.

[KharnZor]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Really? Who said Catapults are'nt brawlers in MWO? Oh right, your mind, you think it. So you write it out. Guess what, it ain't true. All mechs can be snipers, brawlers or mix. If you can't comprehend it, I suggest you start doing some theorycrafting to understand how MWO actually works.

Why so nasty?

I think to change the cat's OPness you'd have to go all the way back to the fundamental idea of what the cat is supposed to be. But you'd have to restrict it to its intended role. Needless to say you'd then have to do it to ALL mechs and we all know something like that is never going to happen. Only thing that can be done i think without making sweeping changes to the game is to simply learn the tactics to combat them and wait for future mech releases that may offer an effective counter.
And by all means continue to b**ch about it. I know i will no doubt.

[Rhent]

Garfuncle, on 26 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

This is an asinine pipe-dream and you know it, or you know nothing of basic game design. Not every mech can do any role, that certainly isn't the case now, obviously, and it will never be the case. Given MWO's class-based system, Lights will always skirmish, scout better than assaults. Mediums are the closest thing we have to generalists, ranging from fire-support to dipping in and out of brawls, heavies are the primary brawlers, have great support potential, but obviously can't scout, and assaults are the big tanks and the big guns, but they are the slowest, have zero scout potential whatsoever, and almost always must commit to a fight due to their lack of mobility.

This 'limitless design' crap you are trying to sell does not exist and will not exist. But right now we still do have obvious problems with mech roles that are being implemented, and some mechs trample over other classes' roles and make them look obsolete. A.K.A the Cat that does too many things far too well by stepping into other mech's roles.

So get your head out of the sand or at least grasp some simple game design logic.

I'm sorry but you seem to not have the basic grasps of how to play the game. You don't understand min/max or how you can build mechs do you?

Let me help you:
-Spider + ECM + ERPPC + Tag = Sniper + Tag (love those guys when I'm in my LRM Boat)
-Jenner + 2 LL = Mix/Long Range
-Hunchback + 3 PPC = Sniper (AKA Punchback)
-Hunchback + 2 LRM 15 = LRM Boat
-Cat + 6 SRM6 = Brawler
-Stalker + 4 PPC = Sniper
-Stalker + 5 SRM 6 = Brawler
-Stalker + 4 PPC + 4 Streak = Mix
-Stalker + 2 ERPPC + 2 LRM 15 = Long Range Sniper
-Stalker + 2 LRM10 + 2 PPC + 2 SRM 6
-Phract + 2 LRM 15 + 2 LL = LRM/Sniper

the cat is a good brawler, just like its a good ranged or good mixed, just like every other mech build out there. If you don't understand that, there is Mechwarrior Tactics which you might enjoy a lot more than a twitch based game like MWO, just saying. It sounds like you are having a lot of problems in the FPS world.

If you are having problems with Cats, its based on your own game skills, let me help you out how to handle Cats:

You could learn how to stay at 150M while fighting a splat cat

OR you could learn how to use thermals and watch the horizon for the familiar Catapult image not firing PPC/LL/LRM's rapidly running towards you

OR you could learn how to aim at Torso &/Or Arms to dearm the Cat

OR you could learn how to headshot the Cat's oversized head target

OR you could quit playing LRM carriers without any secondary close range weapons and staying zoomed in on targets rather than looking at your map

OR you could quit playing PPC only carriers overheating yourself allowing a SRM cat to close and take you out when you are at 90% heat

[Franchi]

I like how everyone is oblivious to WHY the catapult K2 and A1 are being used the way they are, it's because another mech is BETTER at their intended role than they are or their intended role has been made worthless by the meta, or both.

The K2 is inferior to the 3D as a PPC sniper, the 3D is the same speed, has JJ and runs cooler with the same loadout+JJ's. The only thing that a K2 can do better than any other mechs is use two MASSIVE ballistic weapons.

Aside from LRM's being garbo in the current meta, the A1 is inferior to the C1 and C4 as an LRM boat because it cannot carry tag or a PPC. not to mention the stalker, that has the tonnage to boat bigger LRM launchers and more ammo while keeping them cool AND running tag and/or PPc's. So what can a A1 do better than any other mech? Boat SRM's.

Sure lets nerf torso twist and engine ratings and kill the A1 as a viable mech while we also gimp the C4, K2 and C1.

Edited by Franchi, 26 February 2013 - 08:09 PM.

[Rhent]

KharnZor, on 26 February 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Why so nasty?

I think to change the cat's OPness you'd have to go all the way back to the fundamental idea of what the cat is supposed to be. But you'd have to restrict it to its intended role. Needless to say you'd then have to do it to ALL mechs and we all know something like that is never going to happen. Only thing that can be done i think without making sweeping changes to the game is to simply learn the tactics to combat them and wait for future mech releases that may offer an effective counter.
And by all means continue to b**ch about it. I know i will no doubt.

Really, who said the Cat in MWO is a Fire Support Mech? Have you actually built a mech in the Mech Lab yet? Do you not understand how hard points act? Do you not understand that every chassis has a distinct advantage and disadvantage?

The Cat's main disadvantage is that its missiles has to go in its extremely oversized ARMS. The Cat's advantage is its torso twist to compensate for that.

The Stalker's main disdvantage is its lack of arm twist and restricted torso twist. The Stalkers main advantage is its heavy energy/missile payload.

The Jenners main disadvantage is its lack of missile slots. The Jenners main advantage is its speed/JJ's

The Phracts main disadvantage is its large torso is very easy to core. The Phracts main advantage is its autocannon/JJ slots.

Just saying, you can use all mechs for all roles. If you haven't figured that out yet, what game are you playing? Because I hope to never see you in my bracket. Because I would be doing something seriously wrong.

Franchi, on 26 February 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

I like how everyone is oblivious to WHY the catapult K2 and A1 are being used the way they are, it's because another mech is BETTER at their intended role than they are or their intended role has been made worthless by the meta, or both.

The K2 is inferior to the 3D as a PPC sniper, the 3D is the same speed, has JJ and runs cooler with the same loadout+JJ's. The only thing that a K2 can do better than any other mechs is use two MASSIVE ballistic weapons.

Aside from LRM's being garbo in the current meta, the A1 is inferior to the C1 and C4 as an LRM boat because it cannot carry tag or a PPC. not to mention the stalker, that has the tonnage to boat bigger LRM launchers and more ammo while keeping them cool AND running tag and/or PPc's. So what can a A1 do better than any other mech? Boat SRM's.

Sure lets nerf torso twist and engine ratings and kill the A1 as a viable mech while we also gimp the C4, K2 and C1.

The actual advantage of the A1 over the other Cat variants is that the A1's ears are smaller. Go to mech lab and check it out.

Edited by Rhent, 26 February 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[Franchi]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

The actual advantage of the A1 over the other Cat variants is that the A1's ears are smaller. Go to mech lab and check it out.

Actually the C1 has the same size ears, got to the mechlab and check it out, that in no way compensates for the lack of energy hardpoints when building an LRM boat, the C4 also has missile bay doors that remain level with the top of the box when open presenting a smaller profile to the enemy when open to compensate for its over sized ears.

Edited by Franchi, 26 February 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Faydeaway]

Bullseye69, on 26 February 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Reduce the torso twist and everything would be fine.Catpults are a fire support mech not a brawler mech, they should not have better torso twist than a pure brawling mech.

The Catapult is an offense oriented, second-line fire-support BattleMech initially produced on a limited contract for the Terran Hegemony.

Yes except this is MWO and not canon. Go take a Catapult LRM boat out and play, oh, 10 matches. Get back to me with how frustrating that can be with the amount ECM that is out there. If the Cat can't LRM boat (like canon says it does) then what does it do if it's gimped in brawling?

The problem isn't the mech chasis, the problem is cheese builds like the splatcat. PGI needs to look at mechanics that discourage that kind of play. Either through larger maps or mechanisms like jams, misfires, heat spikes, etc, when you attempt to fire off multiple weapons of the same class out of the same area of the mech (arm, ST, CT, etc.).

Edited by Faydeaway, 26 February 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Rhent]

Faydeaway, on 26 February 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Yes except this is MWO and not canon. Go take a Catapult LRM boat out and play, oh, 10 matches. Get back to me with how frustrating that can be with the amount ECM that is out there. If the Cat can't LRM boat (like canon says it does) then what does it do if it's gimped in brawling?

The problem isn't the mach chasis, the problem is cheese builds like the splatcat. PGI needs to look at mechanics that discourage that kind of play. Either through larger maps or mechanisms like jams, misfires, heat spikes, etc, when you attempt to fire off multiple weapons of the same class out of the same area of the mech (arm, ST, CT, etc.).

PGI built a game that encourages brawling by having excessive cover and an OP ECM. In that environment you will get a preponderance of brawler builds. You actually don't like boating, that is your gripe, not SRM's. To which I would reply
-What game are you playing?
-Do you not understand aiming arcs?
-Is this the first time you played a game with physics?

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

How about learning to not let splat cats sneak up on your snowflake mech?

The catpult needs the insane torso twist to protect its gigantic head hitbox. In mw4, the raven had 360 degree torso twist--like a tank.

[KharnZor]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Really, who said the Cat in MWO is a Fire Support Mech? Have you actually built a mech in the Mech Lab yet? Do you not understand how hard points act? Do you not understand that every chassis has a distinct advantage and disadvantage?

The Cat's main disadvantage is that its missiles has to go in its extremely oversized ARMS. The Cat's advantage is its torso twist to compensate for that.

The Stalker's main disdvantage is its lack of arm twist and restricted torso twist. The Stalkers main advantage is its heavy energy/missile payload.

The Jenners main disadvantage is its lack of missile slots. The Jenners main advantage is its speed/JJ's

The Phracts main disadvantage is its large torso is very easy to core. The Phracts main advantage is its autocannon/JJ slots.

Just saying, you can use all mechs for all roles. If you haven't figured that out yet, what game are you playing? Because I hope to never see you in my bracket. Because I would be doing something seriously wrong.



The actual advantage of the A1 over the other Cat variants is that the A1's ears are smaller. Go to mech lab and check it out.

*sigh* Go do something to work that chip on your shoulder. Dont think for a minute that i have no knowledge about the building of mechs or anything else you'd like to cast doubt on to satisfy your own childish need to feel that you are something you are clearly not.
I piloted cats for a few months and mastered them all in little time. The A1 in particular was the easyest mech to master overall due to the fact that it can be abused on a whim by means of boating so you could say i know them inside out. Only mech i know better is the HBK.
Cut the infantile nastyness out of your posts and maybe then someone will actually give a damn about what you have to say.

[Rhent]

Narcisoldier, on 26 February 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

How about learning to not let splat cats sneak up on your snowflake mech?

The catpult needs the insane torso twist to protect its gigantic head hitbox. In mw4, the raven had 360 degree torso twist--like a tank.

Situation awareness is hard
Griping on the forums about builds you can't counter is easy

[Dishevel]

Petrothian Tong, on 26 February 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

/facepalm


you do know they are ineffective over 270 meters right?

and inb4 calling nerfs to my awsome with multiple ER PPC nailing ppl at 1km

At 200 the damage they do is minimal.
An A1 should only be truly feared at MG range.

[KharnZor]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Situation awareness is hard
Griping on the forums about builds you can't counter is easy

And being a complete asshat for no apparent reason is easy for you isnt it?

[Rhent]

KharnZor, on 26 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

*sigh* Go do something to work that chip on your shoulder. Dont think for a minute that i have no knowledge about the building of mechs or anything else you'd like to cast doubt on to satisfy your own childish need to feel that you are something you are clearly not.
I piloted cats for a few months and mastered them all in little time. The A1 in particular was the easyest mech to master overall due to the fact that it can be abused on a whim by means of boating so you could say i know them inside out. Only mech i know better is the HBK.
Cut the infantile nastyness out of your posts and maybe then someone will actually give a damn about what you have to say.

I'm tired of reading posts from people thinking 2 Dimensionally. You read the Battletech Technical Readout 3025 and are trying to use a paid bit of writing from 1986 to apply to a video game with their own house rules. I get it, you don't like the house rules. So you come to the forums discussing about how "Cat's are Fire Support Mechs". I play MWO. I've been playing Battletech since the boxed set. I've been playing Mechwarrior as a video game since the first Mechwarrior. I've been playing online Mechwarrior since Kesmai for Kurita. All versions of the game have had their own house rules. I've learned how to play within the rules and do quite well.

I take it you can't?

KharnZor, on 26 February 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

And being a complete asshat for no apparent reason is easy for you isnt it?

Situation awareness is hard
Griping on the forums about builds you can't counter is easy

-If you can't play by the House Rules, go to the forums, dig up any arcane source material possible and then try to use that to justify your point of view.

It doesn't work. I hate ECM how its implemented. It's three things in one. I mount at least 1 PPC on any mechs with lock on weapons to compensate for it. Drive on and learn how to deal with the house rules.

[Lycrin]

Personally, I vote for people to cut the crap. Catapults are very role specific and their hard points make them easy to make role specific/boating builds. And that's not going change at all by nerfing all catapults just so you can get past dealing with the ones that only have 270 meter max range on them. Even then, after about 150 or so meters the spread is very large. Overall, stay out of range, play it smart, use teamwork to converge fire on them to take them out faster, but stop your whining all of you. I'd like to see some real discussions on these threads, not some petty bickering over how certain builds have become popular or difficult for other people to deal with.

[Suki]

SpartanFiredog317, on 26 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

...Cut the engine rating down to a 250, and the twist down to about 70 degrees, and SRMS/SSRMS will be completely balanced. Its not even the fact that Catapults can boat every weapon in the game, the problem is they can do so better than just about any mech in the game. LRMS AC20s PPCs SRMS/SSRMS.... all with close enough to a 360 arc of fire, max armor, and the speed of a medium. Cutting their speed and fire arc will give them enough disadvantage to be in line with everyone else, but still let the payload be deadly if they can get position.

Are You on smthing or didn't try other mechs?
There are better PPC boats - Awesome and Stalker.
There are better LRM boats - Awesome, Stalker, Atlas.
There is better SRM/SSRM boat - Stalker.
not shure about ballistics, I don't use them.