127 replies to this topic

[EgoSlayer]

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

elo is not a balanced system for an 8v8 game. your fate is decided by luck when you press the launch button. elo is a system for 1v1 games. if you get the team, you win, if you get the dribblers, you lose. there are far too many variables to make it balanced

OK BigBadHarv I'll bite.
Please explain to me how having a completely fracking random (CFR) match maker that only works by 'Hey these 16 people clicked launch at about the same time' provides a better match than one using logic based on player skill/history?

Please enlighten me, I would really like to know the answer. Because all the ELO haters seem to think it was better. With CFR matchmaking you are more likely to get the "dribblers" because statistically there are going to be more of them in the pool than the elite pilots. So how is luck not a factor in CFR mode?

Sync drops is not a valid answer because even with ELO you can group with your friends and drop together, you just can't drop against each other. But this last point is going to be addressed in future updates which removes the sync drop argument entirely.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 26 February 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[1BigFool]

Is he still here?

[Gaan Cathal]

Yay. The back-and-forth-quoting-game. Joy.

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

"It's all good, toxic speech, flaming and trolling apparently are because people are Bad At The Game. Interestingly, given his first post that is more or less a tacit admission that he is, infact, Bad At The Game."
I have to be bad because i said he could be potentially bad. not once did i state my skill level in this game. (honestly, i would say im pretty decent. i have good awareness and instincts and can read the enemy team well, this comes from my background in other games and a lot of the principles translate well to this game. I can be a bit too gung ho at times though and i could be more patient... if you must know )

You said, without much room for misinterpretation, that there would be a lot of people who didn't like what you wrote, because they were:

bad
rabid animals
trolls
dribbling wrecks
(having a)lack of depth, intelligence and taste
(having a) cliched personality, (...) low brow and low standards,

Now, I can think of a lot of reasons for people to dislike your original post. It could be that they want a Mechwarrior-LoL as their dream game. It could be that in their opinion (and this is based on my observation of other threads) that ELO has been a net benefit to the game at this stage of it's development. It could be that they object to someone believing they have the right to lay down a pile of derogatory insults on a large group of people with precisely 0 provocation, whether or not they believe themselves to be in that group. That may object to the idea that someone feels he has the right to be abusive about people because he is "top 5% in DotA", which while possibly not the intent of the OP, is certainly heavily implied.

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

"No-one cares, really. No-one cares that you were not quite as good at DotA2 as you boasted you were"
an assumption that has absolutely no purchase in reality. a guess because he wants to get a snipe in anyway he can. he thinks that something like this will hurt the most, probably to do with how he would feel if something similar was said to him, cant be sure though.

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

I used to boast on servers to players that i was better than 95% of the people that play the game. dotabuff.com did an update recently, turned out i was better than only 94% of players

An assumption based on what you said.

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

"You think people do because the circle you associate with agree, and after a while of that you assume everyone agrees. It's perfectly natural, a kind of social confirmation. It's also dangerous and has in the past lead to injustice, war, prejudice and self important idiots making fools out of themselves on forums."
ahh, a touch of the grandiose here. hints at fascism too, trying to associate describing what internet undesirables act like to very intricate politcal and social orders. its an easy one, the old fascism, something everybody can hate. also an assumption of me thinking that everyone agrees with what i said. what he is trying to do with that is show how disillusioned i must be so therefore, the rest of what i said cant and doesnt count.

The psuedo-grandiosity was both intentional and tounge in cheek. Incidentally, I never mentioned fascism, social confirmation bias (the small group who agree so much they thing everyone agrees) is a very common effect. I thought it was rather clear you were the 'self important *****' there, not the warmonger. The fact is, the only apparent justification you provide in the OP for launching into an abusive tirade is that you were pretty good at DotA. If that's not the justification you believe you have, you need to be clearer, if it is then you're a self-important ***** and DotA doesn't matter half as much as you think.


Edit: I love how 'idiots' is fine, but the singular requires redacting, making it look like I'm being positively abusive.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 26 February 2013 - 07:21 PM.

[Vasces Diablo]

So from what I can tell, 75% of your complaint goes away with the implementation of community/faction warfare.

Be patient my friend.

[Duphonse]

I agree on many points that the OP has brought up. Thank you for saying them.

What the trolls who condemn him don't understand, is that, there are many who do not voice out their dissatisfaction and just stop playing without complaining. One day good trolls, there will be no one left to play with. Enjoy it while you can.

[1BigFool]

Anyone responding to an insult isn't a troll. They're simply responding.

[Steven Dixon]

The games business strategy is basically based on WoTs and LoL. If your not interested in those types of games anymore then perhaps the game isn't for you, that's ok. CW might interest you, my guess is that it will be somewhat similar to WoTs 'clan warfare', of course we don't know yet.

Some devs just use mechanics like this as a cash grab, they copy whatever popular game is out, buy the rights to some franchise and put some superficial elements in their game and crank out a piece of junk and collect their paychecks; these devs aren't doing this. They really love the franchise, they are modeling it like WoTs because that's what they had to do to get it made.

They are also trying to branch out and do different types of games and Bryan's dream is still to make a single player game (Russ has said in interviews that he also hopes he can do a single player game someday). If this game isn't for you and you would like to see other BT games, look at this game as a stepping stone. They need it to get funding and to prove to publishers that the BT/MW franchise is viable. If you don't feel like playing and don't want to buy any more MCs then you can still help the cause by telling other people about the game. If you can get more people to play then not only will the devs have more money to do the things we all dream about but their will also be more fans of the series. What you decide to do depends on how badly you want the BT video game franchise to continue.

[Rakashan]

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

if having high standards = being a special snowflake, so be it. im not going to drop my standards due to the actions of the masses. i never claimed to have supreme knowledge, though i did let it be known what experience i have on this subject. everyone deserves to have an opinion but its the weight behind it which gives it its tangibility. if Jonny X starts talking out of his ar$e then yeah, im going to immediately disregard his opinion on the subject and if Jonny X is doing that because he feels he has to out of some distorted sense of self pride then yeah, ill put their opinion down the memory hole

Having high standards is not being a special snowflake. Believing that your standards are the only ones to measure by is (and is also very common in this era of "you can find someone who will agree with anything somewhere on the internet"). I'm sorry if this game is not the Mechwarrior game you desire in your heart of hearts but it *is* a viable business model. It's damn near a point for point clone of World of Tanks which has won numerous awards, in fact. There are certainly things about it I don't like and things that I do. This community is not as toxic as some that I have seen but it is largely incapable of using the search function (and this one actually works unlike some forums out there) and most of them would not know good game design if it bit them on the arse.

As to your initial post. You wrote over 1100 words stating, in short, that this game was not something that you enjoyed. The problems you have with it are, quite simply, nothing that PGI can fix for you since they involve the other players, not the game itself. Regardless of how they implement the matchmaker, unless you are dropping in a full group, you risk being exposed to the elements of the community that you obviously despise but aside from taunting them your post serves no other purpose. Since you took time to count, you might have realized that aside from your almost polite argument that the community is not worth being a part of, you also used about 20% of it to presuppose that anyone who disagreed with you was one of the elements you don't like. And then to top it off, your first response in the thread (and almost half of them since) have been a condescending self-quoting insult to the other posters.

Stop and look at your own behavior and wonder for a minute *why* people have reacted to you the way they have. Maybe you'll be able to learn something about other people that will ease your path through life in the future. I suspect that if you behave this way outside the internet it really *is* fortunate that you have kept friends.


Now, in terms of your actual problem with the game, I suggest that you start looking for games with a stronger PvE element or a one-on-one mode like RTS games. Your problem with this game in particular has to do with the presumption that a majority of your games are going to have someone who either doesn't try (unlikely) or who cannot perform at the level you want them to (possible if you're not playing in 8-mans). Sadly, unless you go into matches with a complete team, your "fear", rational or not, is always going to be possible. Either you learn to let that go (and you probably need to learn to do that for things you'll face in real life anyway) or you move on. I haven't looked at it, but maybe MW Tactics would be a better fit.

Seriously, you have my sympathy. I wish you luck finding a gaming community where everyone performs to the level you want them to. I get that by working with a clan when I can but I still have to learn to let annoyances with other people go. The alternative is to have my BP meds increased.

[DegeneratePervert]

I don't care about wins, or losses. All I want from this game is a good time doing stompy robot fighting, and with ELO there will be fewer steamrolls and more even games. Sounds awesome to me. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Thirdstar]

You guys are really silly for continuing to post in an obviously troll thread. Yeeesh.

OP wanted some forum entertainment and you've all pretty much given it to him.

(Yeah I know I'm being a hypocrite)

[Tarl Cabot]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

You guys are really silly for continuing to post in an obviously troll thread. Yeeesh.

OP wanted some forum entertainment and you've all pretty much given it to him.

(Yeah I know I'm being a hypocrite)

And there may be some posts that may cause a few players to pause and think before posting something, as well as food for thought on their expectations.

Some of us do dream...(or have nightmares!!!)

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 February 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Novakaine]

As much as I agree with ya and rant here myself it's still in beta.
Let's give PGI the time and monetary support they will need.
Mainly cause aint nobody else doing it.
I'm mad as hell about them gankin snyc drops, but I'll live with for now.
Hopefully CW won't be a load o crap.
But we won't know until it gets here.
So I'm gonna support em.
So hang in there I am.
B-Tech Thug since 1984!
Oh and on a side note I want my Fozzie Bear Holo for my cockpit PGI.

[Anastasius]

The game engine is fun. I am hoping they come up with a good campaign ala MPBT:3025 and what NBT did for mw4.

If these chuckleheads can pull off a good persistant campaign this should be pretty damn fun.

[Kassatsu]

Not gonna touch the actual topic because it's just blatant flamebait and trolling, but in response to Anastasius above:

I'd love a PvE campaign, would give a nice break from the constant PvP matches, even if the rewards are negligible (as with every F2P shooter with a co-op mode), it'd be nice to take a break from constantly worrying about where to go next, who I should flank or support, or even who to target first. Would also be a good place for people to start and learn the basics, assuming there's never a decent tutorial in the game.

Rakashan, on 26 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I'll also be happy to explain the difference between an MMO and an MMORPG if you are interested.

I got this.

MMORPG is Massively Multiplayer Role-Playing Game, things like WoW, EQ2 etc.

MMO is just "Massively Multiplayer Online" which, on its own makes no sense whatsoever. Now, MMOG on the other hand...

Edited by Kassatsu, 26 February 2013 - 09:33 PM.

[Badconduct]

Lukoi, on 26 February 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

BBH you're judging the game based on a Beta that's testing combat mechanics.

CW isn't in yet. Much of what you're hoping to get from this game is predicated on how CW is implemented.

So, if you've had your fill of pointless fights, by all means take a break. Some of us are still having fun with the pointless battles however, so we'll see you later.

How many times is this comment repeated?

It's beta. Relax.

OP, Your post is a bunch of babbling about life and and what you want.

Not once did you clearly state what is actually wrong with the game. Maybe instead of being all emotional and looking for a forumfriend to cheer you up, you could plug one sentence of constructive criticism. It's easier to read, far more useful and makes you look like an educated, young individual with some valid input, rather than a low life drunk trying to get attention and whining about how a game isn't being developed exactly to your standards and specifications.

Seriously; no game is going to relive your childhood. Boo hoo. It's still fun, and it's still Mechwarrior. Grow up.

Edited by Badconduct, 26 February 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

I'm looking up synonyms for "pretentious" so I can make a well-thought out response to this.

Eh, f*ck it.

Your post reeked of elitism, entitlement and I could almost HEAR your upper lip stiffen.

Join a clan that has skilled players like the rest of us and stop fearing stat measurement.

Sports have it, the military has it, every industry in the world has it - our society today likes to measure performance.
Unless you don't have the cajones, what is there to complain about?

[Teralitha]

BigBadHarv, on 26 February 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

following on from this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...27#entry1952427 i posted on Sunday and after talking with friends irl I've pretty much decided to pack it in early.
I know I know, drama llama etc. but I do have good reasons for this.

I had been praying for a mechwarrior mmo for more then 10 years now. I had never played an mmorpg before and they never really appealed to me, but alas, I was a major battletech fan. Me and my friends grew up with the mechwarrior games and books, heck I still have a long sleve polo t-shirt you got with mechwarrior 2: mercenaries around here somewhere. Needless to say, we were massive fans of the universe whether it was the books or the various games. When we saw that early trailer (3 years ago now i think?) we were so excited for a new mechwarrior game and it looked amazing.

we started talking about it, how we could be in the universe with our mechs, unit etc. We thought there would be this massive cool other end to the game where we could do planetaries, fight the clans, take part in the history of the universe with thousands of other people and pretty much live the dream we had since we were 10 years old. but now, alas, the true colour of the beast has reared its ugly head.

I stopped playing DotA 3 months ago now. Every game I played was pointless. You press the Launch button and that was it, that was your fate, you win or lose based on that and those numbers go into a system that decides how good you are. Your fate was not in your hands. I was part of a good few teams over my dota/hon days. I was a good player, good stats, high mmr/elo but alas, the atmosphere of those games was completely toxic. Players acting like rabid animals because their stats proved that they weren't good at the game and thus they would flame/troll/anti-play etc. if you had 1 or 2 on your team you autolost the game. Such things as playing against their own team happened every game, if i was doing well and winning for the team, there would be a guy there getting mad at me and start doing his best to lose.
I used to boast on servers to players that i was better than 95% of the people that play the game. dotabuff.com did an update recently, turned out i was better than only 94% of players

What I learned was that all of that, all the time spent chasing elo numbers and stats etc was basically putting a bunsen burner under the limited time i spend on this planet. the numbers were so inaccurate (elo is a ranking system devised for a 1v1 board game, chess, and due to the mass variance involved, has absolutely no bearing on 8v8 mech simulator computer games) that every game just didnt matter. you were locked in with people you wouldnt go near for a second irl and if you didnt want to play with them, tough, you lose points and slip further down the ladder. Im 28 now (almost 29!) and i dont really have the time to play with teams/clans anymore. Ive done all that when i was younger. I was the team captain for my countries esports team on clanbase, I organised LANs, worked on the journalistic side of games and played at a very high level across a good few games. it was fun, but not anymore.

What I wanted from MWO was the dream game. Something I could come home to and play with the friends i (fortunately) still have. I moved away from DotA/HoN/LoL because they were games poisoned with elo & stats. toxic communities with an unbelievably huge 'lower' caste of gamers (look up elo hell). Now, the primary reason I left those games, has come to a game Ive loved and wanted all my life. It was like a sucker punch. It proved to me that PGI just want to try and get some of that lucrative LoL/F2P market. This game can be so so so much more, but alas we get a bolted on elo system that has absolutely no right to be here. To me it reeks of laziness and is reminiscent of other companies lazy approach to creating games (S2 Games comes to mind).

Now I know some of you are getting very angry at reading this, the trolls, the dribbling wrecks, the people who make games a struggle to play to those I say the following: You are the same person. I've seen you, talked with you and played with you across tons of games. You act in the same manner as everyone else in your bracket and anything and everything you say is very very easily predicted. The same distortion of facts, the same need to troll, the same need to bend reality to how you want, the same lack of depth, intelligence and taste is prevalent throughout all of you. I know you hate being as crap as you are. I know its hard to accept your limitations and I know the internet and games are a great way to vent this rage but know this, your life is only as horrible as you are making it. The further you get away from the truth the more terrible a person you become. There are literally millions of you out there, all the same, the same phrases, the same cliched personality, the same low brow and low standards, clogging up game servers and choking the fun out of what is meant to be entertainment. You are catered for and a lot of money is made off of you, that is the only thing you add to a world filled with wonder and amazement. Well done.


Its such a pity that a game I loved is going to go to the dogs. Im still eager to be proved wrong but the signs are all there, Ive seen it all before but I will hold out hope that in a year or 2's time, this will be a game worth playing with all those features Ive dreamed of. As is, its far too similar to league of legends in both marketing strategy and development. Chasing and grinding numbers that are completely irrelevant to your life. I'll keep my account active, I have a lot of stuff on there and ive got about 15 days of premium time left Ill use. Still feel like I've been kicked in the gut

Sorry but the negative comment you made about LOL at the end ruined any creditability you had and made the rest of your post garbage.

[SpiralRazor]

Kraven Kor, on 26 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I'm not angry, I'm generally not really a troll I don't think, though I'm sure I have my moments. It seems you are angry about ELO.

Sorry, just usually have to kind of point out these kinds of posts where someone posts some big "I'm leaving because PGI failed me" posts.

Mostly just razzing you.

Also, note i did not once insult you, or even use unkind language, while your post is painting 80% of the population as mouth-breathers...

Thats because 80% of the population is mouth breathers.

[Kreisel]

OP you realize that you kind of sound like a troll? Many of your remarks are highly inflammatory and outright tossing insults at players who think differently than yourself. In essence you behavior in your original post was exactly the kind of pettiness you accused others of before they even had a chance to respond. You invited trolls, not respectful dialog by offering insult at the door. If you want to talk about toxic environments, DON'T start out by creating a hostile environment for anyone who responds to your post.

It takes about 30 seconds to jump on one of the open team speak servers and get yourself a team with voice chat. Ironically said team is still technically a PUG but everyone thinks of them as 'premades' You can escape ELO that way. I group up with strangers who I will never see again all the time.

Also, my understanding of how ELO works in these games is a little different that those you listed. My understanding is it averages the ELO of everyone it is throwing together on a team and looks for another team that closely matches that overall score... so ELO hell... in which all the players have the same low ELO scores isn't so real because high and low ELO players could be placed on the same team.

Also... if you think that PGI made ELO a priorty in a game that doesn't need it you have not been paying attention to the community or the forums. There has been MASSIVE outcry for some kind of balancing for the drop system, tons of posts about PUG's hatting premades and unfair matches. PGI pushed matchmaking and ELO to the forefront because a lot of players were complaining about an experience where they were getting continuously steamrolled my more advanced, better equipped and more organized players. PGI made it a priority because they wanted players not to be frustrated by losing all the time and give high skill players some meaningful competition.

I for one wish the ELO system would take into account the Mech your launching on and if it has all Basic, Elite, or Master skills unlocked.Because players who have that have a statistical advantage of those who do not.

I agree with part of your premise, when players can see their stats they tend to obsess about them way too much. I hate the Elitism of K/dr and how players will behave in ways that are not conducive to having good fun games or winning in order to preserve some personal stat number. I'm glad ELO will remain hidden, I wish K/DR was as well, at-least you have to go digging to find it and it is nowhere visible in the game itself. So far I haven't heard much of anyone talk about their K/DR or seen many groups requiring a certain score to get in so that at-least makes me happy.

But the point is the community starts with where and how WE behave, and with the pervasive attitude about what is more important fun and good sportsmanship or Scores. We can be positive and try an encourage good behavior by example and support, or we can give up, complain (it's ok to complain mind you, just be constructive) and generally add to the negativity that feeds the trolls and greifers.

[Exoth3rmic]

When you come back (and you will) please play a bit more and post a bit less.

You've made mutliple threads, elicited multiple responses and simply disagreed with everyone. This is not the picture of a reasonable mind.