43 replies to this topic

[Headlessnewt]

The more I play MWO the more different ways I come to dislike the way ECM works.

Just now I was noticing how much time ECM makes me spend in Thermal Vision.

If I can't see a little arrow above my opponents' heads, I need to be in Thermal where they'll light up nicely so I can shoot them. This makes essentially any other method of looking at the game pointless, except in well-lit maps (Alpine, Frozen City Night) at reasonable ranges or in Caustic Valley, where Thermal is useless anyway. (Heaven forbid we ever have a map as hot as Caustic that is also a night map.)

I became aware of this when I, piloting my Glass Catapult (2xAC/20 K2), came out of the cave in Forest colony and started hunting down the one person who popped up on my radar, only to have two atlases and a stalker that I didn't notice because I was in normal vision open up on my flank. Sure I got impetuous but if I'd been in thermal like a smart pilot I would have noticed them. Or I would have noticed them if my radar were capable of going 'there's a mech there.'

Anyway, yet another plea for ECM to not prevent lockon. I don't mind it cancelling missile lock, I don't mind it cancelling gaining information about mechs hidden by ECM, I don't mind it messing with my HUD when I get close to it, but for Blake's sake at least make it so that I am not nerfing myself when I want to see the graphics engine you made rather than having the thermal filter up.

[Tarman]

You missed two Atlai and a Stalker with your MK1s. They are the size of three-storey buildings. Sounds like you may need more practice using your regular eyes. Thermal is an enhancement, but if you live in it, you are crutching yourself when you actually need to use normal vision.

[Helbourne]

Yes... you should be able to target (press 'r' and get the red box) an enemy in your line of sight. Currently ECM does too much for its weight and size.

[Krubarax]

Headlessnewt, on 27 February 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

Or I would have noticed them if my radar were capable of going 'there's a mech there.'

Your radar saying "low signal" and the flickering HUD is kind of saying "there is a mech there, and it has ECM"
Do not blame ECM for fools rushing in.

[Headlessnewt]

Tarman, on 27 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

You missed two Atlai and a Stalker with your MK1s. They are the size of three-storey buildings. Sounds like you may need more practice using your regular eyes. Thermal is an enhancement, but if you live in it, you are crutching yourself when you actually need to use normal vision.

They were on the other side of a mech-high mesa when I started pursuing a Cataphract's rear armor. It's kind of hard to notice three-story buildings when you're being blinded by missile smoke, especially when you have no way of knowing they're there aside from the fact that you're shaking like crazy from taking AC shells in your right torso. If I'd had thermals up I would have seen something at the edge of my screen, rather than quick flashes of dark green... which is going to be at the corner of my screen anyway because it's Forest Colony and there are trees.

There is exactly 1 circumstance when normal vision is superior to thermal vision, and that's when you're on Caustic Valley.

GB Krubarax, on 27 February 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Your radar saying "low signal" and the flickering HUD is kind of saying "there is a mech there, and it has ECM"
Do not blame ECM for fools rushing in.

They were more than 200m from me and under ECM. I wasn't being jammed.

[Davers]

ECM gives you a nice 360 degree radar that alerts you to enemy mechs within 180m, even behind you.

[ReD3y3]

You went after the worm without checking for a hook.

[Tarman]

So you merely want more autotargeting instead of developing battlefield awareness, so as not to distract you from your killing. Sounds like you were hound-******* the Cata and got kited into an ambush. That's not your targeting system's error.

And as far as MK1s go, I'm old and I can still suss a Kitty from a Stalker moving outside of max target range through Caustic haze when they look smaller than a cockpit ornament. Noticing movement in a game where only your friends and enemies are really moving is an important skill.

Edit: Really filter, you are looking at more **** than I do if you think that's a bad word.

Edited by Tarman, 27 February 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[Dreamslave]

Helbourne, on 27 February 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Yes... you should be able to target (press 'r' and get the red box) an enemy in your line of sight. Currently ECM does too much for its weight and size.

I actually agree with this. It seems very fair, all things considered. I too spend nearly all of my time in a match using Thermal vision, for the most obvious of reasons. It is far superior to both normal and night vision, especially with ECM so very prevalent. I don't particularly mind being in thermal so much, but it does kind of take away some of the epic feel of the game just shooting at a bunch of colors.

[Antonio]

I for one am tired of seeing the game in blue. I use thermal 100% of the time except on Caustic because it is so much better than normal vison.

[Zordicron]

Headlessnewt, on 27 February 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

I became aware of this when I, piloting my Glass Catapult (2xAC/20 K2),

My teenage son was observing me in a match the other night, and we both noted how, and in his own words, "catapult drivers really look like they don't know what the heck they are doing."

Now, I don't know you, and you may be piloting one of the cheesiest pult builds just because, and maybe catapult is a long time favorite mech or whatever, so dont take it like uber personally, BUT, solo riding out of a cave and getting focus fire ganked without knowing two assault mechs were standing there sounds just like one of several other ???? moments my son and I observed over about a dozen matches from pult drivers.

I really feel for ya on the ECM annoyingness going on right now though. All I can say is I hope whatever the dev team has on the whiteboard for it pans out. I played about 8 matches last night-3 of them had at least 4 ECM on the enemy team, and they knew it. So they stood about 150 feet from their base behind a sizable cover, and just waited for our team to mozy in and get 8 man focus fire alpha'd. Twice in river city and once in forest colony this happened. i am sure my team could have come up with some kind of tactic against it, but when snipe weapons cant LOS on the enemy, and LRM cant lock, and cant dumbfire them because you cant actually target the area, just the cover in the way, all thats left in Rambo in guns blazing and hope for the best. If ECM was a little more normal in function, these situations wouldnt come up.

[b1ackadder]

Tarman, on 27 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

You missed two Atlai and a Stalker with your MK1s. They are the size of three-storey buildings. Sounds like you may need more practice using your regular eyes. Thermal is an enhancement, but if you live in it, you are crutching yourself when you actually need to use normal vision.

With an double AC20-cat I do not wonder further. It is a most ridiculous built (just like a SRM6-cat). Starting a post whining about poor vision is just as: The trouble may lie somewhere else.



BUT speaking about therman thermal in Caustic Valley:
It is indeed incredibly useful to notice ECM-scouts an at the flanks (i.e. you're in 5-line and might notice some blurry movement in 3-line which you would never have seen without thermal).

Just saying. Max out your enhancements and leave them when they are useless.



edit: typos

Edited by b1ackadder, 27 February 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[Harmatia]

Not every instance will have a favorable outcome. If it doesn't, run!

[Tarman]

b1ackadder, on 27 February 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

With an double AC20-cat I do not wonder further. It is a most ridiculous built (just like a SRM6-cat). Starting a post whining about poor vision is just as: The trouble may lie somewhere else.



BUT speaking about therman in Caustic Valley:
It is indeed incredibly useful to notice ECM-scouts an the flanks (i.e. you're in 5-line and might notice some blurry movement in 3-line which you would never have seen without thermal).

Just saying. Max out your enhancements and leave them when they are useless.

I'm saying as far as vision goes, movement spotting is just as doable without thermals, except at night. Then thermals, but also because NV is pretty terrible in this game. I find a lot of people live in thermal so much that their normal eyes are "secondary" vision in their minds, instead of thermal being a booster. It's bass-ackwards thinking imo and leads to people being subpar when their toys aren't working.

[Dreamslave]

Tarman, on 27 February 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

I'm saying as far as vision goes, movement spotting is just as doable without thermals, except at night. Then thermals, but also because NV is pretty terrible in this game. I find a lot of people live in thermal so much that their normal eyes are "secondary" vision in their minds, instead of thermal being a booster. It's bass-ackwards thinking imo and leads to people being subpar when their toys aren't working.

That's entirely incorrect. One can spot enemy mechs much further away and much easier when using thermal versus normal vision on almost every map. It's common sense, really.

[Tarman]

Dreamslave, on 27 February 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

That's entirely incorrect. One can spot enemy mechs much further away and much easier when using thermal versus normal vision on almost every map. It's common sense, really.

Easier, maybe. Further, not really. But if that's the only vision you use then your MK1s are going to fail you because you don't know how to operate without thermal. Thermal is a useful tool but if you can't live without it then you are crutching.

[Pihb]

You got blown up because you went off alone and fought 3 plus other mechs. This game punishes stupidity. Stop blaming game mechanics for your noobery.

[Dreamslave]

Tarman, on 27 February 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Easier, maybe. Further, not really. But if that's the only vision you use then your MK1s are going to fail you because you don't know how to operate without thermal. Thermal is a useful tool but if you can't live without it then you are crutching.

It has surpassed "useful tool" at this point, with the advent of ECM. It is borderline necessary in order to spot targets far away, since they cannot be "targeted". It may be different in 4 mans, I haven't a clue because I hardly ever play those.

[Zaptruder]

Many people in this thread exhibit a hopeless sense of reading comprehension.

Misconstrue an argument in its worst way possible, then argue against that = scoring cheap shots at the expense of actually having a discussion.

But that's an unfortunate result of the modern education system.


As much as it is the OP's 'fault' for not having the situational awareness; it is also the fault of the game for providing us with the design language that makes that specific situational awareness in that specific scenario much less likely to develop.

I mean; at first we had the ability to see everything in targeting boxes; then ECM came and that went away. Now we use thermal vision, because it does a function similar to what the targeting boxes do; it high lights mechs from distances and through smoke, trees and other effects.

Except the game isn't very enjoyable to play primarily in thermal vision, even if it means you'll do better because of it.

A large part of it boils down to mech visibility from long or even medium range distances; the smog filter that is present in the majority of maps basically makes it much harder task to spot mechs in normal visual than it does thermal.

So this particular problem could be rectified either by removing or at least reducing drastically the smog filter... or reducing the effectiveness of thermal vision (i.e. it too is affected by the smog filter).

[Tarman]

Dreamslave, on 27 February 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

It has surpassed "useful tool" at this point, with the advent of ECM. It is borderline necessary in order to spot targets far away, since they cannot be "targeted". It may be different in 4 mans, I haven't a clue because I hardly ever play those.

Don't ask me, Ima crazy pugger. And I have not found it necessary in the least, just conveniently supplemental. I said earlier I can spot mechs outside max target range and tell them apart with plain sight; so ECM is irrelevant to that. I don't think that I'm so 1337 that I don't need thermal that much, I just don't need thermal that much. It has not ever become so important to me that I will have it on alldayerryday.