169 replies to this topic

[phelancracken]

Dataman, on 08 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

hahaha this amuses me, clanners.

as long as you stick to your honorable code or something, you'll never win against a lance of so called freebirth.

IS warriors claims almost anything killing method is valid. teamwork? yep. legging the **** out of bigger mechs? yep.

a 1 hit kill right through its cockpit? it's valid.

it's a war, not sports.

It's a war simulation. Not actual war. Big difference. Be that as it may, Legging is a tactic that if you really think about it is much better than just blasting to heck and back a mech that you would want for salvage. So if you were fighting a numerically superior force you would not do something to cripple a mech as fast and efficiently as possible? As for targeting cockpits, IS can do the same thing and a freak ERPPC, AC/20 solid shot, or Guass rifle hit, good nite, game over. I might also add in TT you cannot target the cockpit of a mech unless it's powered down even with a TC.

Where clans differ is where teamwork is used by IS. They in general don't. But some will due to the fact light mechs usually will not defeat a heavy or bigger mech. My point is this, zell is an optional way of playing. Never was mandatory. Not even back when the clans were first introduced. So any method trying to force clans to use it is just a way to make them fight even more of an uphill fight.

Edited by phelancracken, 08 June 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Blu C]

Why is this even being discussed?

For one, Zellbrigen is not 100% uniform among the Clans. So if we are going to talk about forcing Clans to follow Zellbrigen it begs the question about which Clan's version of it? For example, while prior to the invasion the majority of the Clans followed a strict interpritation both Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf followed a more liberal one, and several Clans had an opportunistic version of it (Cloud Cobra, Hell's Horces, Ice Hellion, Nova Cat, Snow Raven). That means that of the 6 primary invading Clans (not reserve) 2 of them had variations of Zellbrigen, or roughly 1/3 of the total force.

Second, Zellbrigen very quickly lapsed out of use when facing Inner Sphere forces as they continually abused the rules and in effect got the whole of the Inner Sphere declaired Dezgra. Even if you argue that initially in the game there is no reason to have that in place there is the fact that the list of violations to Zellbrigen include such things as "Failing to fire a weapon when possible", "Moving out of range", and "Moving out of line of sight" are all technically violations and that if a force violates the rules often enough it may be declaired Dezgra and no longer be protected by Zellbrigen. TW gave a guideline that was something like 3 breaches was enough to suspend Zellbrigen. Given the nature of the MMO's likely chaotic nature in battle do you think it is likely that your whole company (or whatever force size is in play) will fail to violate things 3 times?

Third, and perhaps most sailent: there are no clans yet. We have no clue how the feature, if it does come into existance, will be implimented. It is completely possible that Clan factions will be operating under some other method of balancing sides, like restricted drop tonnage. It is completely silly to discuss how the game will be balanced with regards to the Clans without us knowing any real information about how the Clans will come into play, if at all. Heck, it is possible that the Clans may represent admin only factions used to run events, or will only be granted to the highest ranked players in the game, or some other scheme. Until we know something about them with regards to the game any talk about them is pure speculation.

Really, it seems like a waste to come up with some super complex system to try and enforce ballance through the Zellbrigen rules when there are much easier ways to enforce balance through more solid mechanisms like restricting drop weight or the like.

[phelancracken]

Thank you. The table top system had a balancing feature back in the day when the clans were first introduced. It was called the points system. This evolved into the current BV2 system. I can tell that everyone that who wants to make clans do zell either hate them just due to what they are or never fought as clans under the system of points or BV. The current BV system does a decent job or balancing forces so why add even more rules to make balancing either harder or not as much fun to play? What gets me is that the clans were introduced back in the 1990 time frame. So they have been with a game 22 of it's 28 years of existance. If they were that overpowered, then they would have gotten them rebalanced a LONG time ago before the game went to computers in the MW series or the mech commander series.

Totatl Warfare page 273. Players should be aware, however, that it is generally difficult to accurately balance Battetech games, even under the rules of this section; the use of Clan honor makes absolute game balance impossible. (Found in Total Warfare, page 273) The game developers of the table top have made it clear that clan honor, aka zell, is impossible to get balanced in the game. It also states before that part that clans should have better skill sets or larger forces to offset the handicap of Clan honor. All players should agree to the use of clan honor before the start of play of the scenario. Also in Total Warfare page 273 same section.

It also states in Total Warfare, same page, The clan codes of honor, or zellbringen, also known as rules of engagement, are not part of the standard Battletech game rules as presented in the previous sections of Total Warfare. However, players can use these codes to enhance the roleplaying aspect of Battletech, Again, page 273, Total Warfare.

So why are you wanting to force clan pilots to use zell? The table top devs have stated it's impossible to balance completely the game, and that the use of the honor rules makes it even more impossible. You want role play in a war simulation game. Who says I would want to role play? I want to play the game.

The title of this thread says it all. Forcing clan pilots to use honor rules. ( i know, not the exact title, but essentially what it means.) How about we just declare trial of annialiation and be done with it.

Edited by phelancracken, 08 June 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Well said phelan. I checked Total Warfare to verify what you said & not only are the rules governing zellbrigen there as you said, but in other scenario books that I have checked, as well. I also found this:



Also from what I am reading, the honor rules are not set in stone across the board. A Clan may use Honor Level 1 regarding duels but Honor Level 3 regarding retreating. Each Clan sees things a different way.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 June 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[Kartr]

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Kartr, zell has been with the clans since the TRO 3050 came out. The balancing of mechs has been done by the points system that evolved into the current BV2 system. I still remember buying my first Battletech compendium back when they came out in 1990. I checked my Clan Wolf Sourcebook and it came out one year later. I even recall players who were into the clans playing with zell as soon as the clan mechs came out. It was a way to balance before the points system came out and give flavor.

Thanks for confirming that it was a way to balance the game before the points/BV systems were developed. I'd always figured that's why they were created because they seem like the exact types rules needed to help minimize the Clan advantage and prevent the IS from using the rules to force Clan players into suicidal situations. Still I wasn't playing when the Clans came out so I couldn't be sure.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Also the not firing a weapon when it's available is prohibited. Ummm, yeah. Let's see about this. If your in a Warhawk prime and just alpha striked, your either at or very close to auto shut down. That rule doesn't take into account ammo explosions. good thing that Adder has a flamer so . Same thing as that Warhawk prime. A bit of common sense. A clan warrior isn't going to keep heating up if there is no good reason for it. You want to get that heat down to a point where your mech can function effectively.

Oh I totally understand that, you don't want to keep firing and blow your own 'Mech up do to overheating. But the rule doesn't say you have to fire all your weapons, just something. So not only does the rule force Clan players to keep doing things that generate heat, which decreases their heat advantage, it makes them very wary of Alpha striking and just decimating IS 'Mechs with one shot. If your Alpha doesn't kill them and you don't have a MG, you run the risk of being forced to build even more heat, making it a very very high risk/reward tactic. This would force good pilots to plan their shots so that they're always firing something, but never so much so fast that it would cause them to overheat.

That being said since zellbrigen is interpreted by each Clan and warrior and isn't hard and fast rules, the devs could determine that this rule is only in effect if your heat is below a certain level, or if you're only under attack by more than one 'Mech. If you get attacked by a second 'Mech or your heat gets above a point this rule is no longer in effect and the coding doesn't force you to fire.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

On a side note, even if you were trained on what works, the enemy I am sure changes tactics just try and counter your tactics. Well, at least the enemies that want to keep fighting.....

Yes and we change ours, but there are somethings that stay conditioned and you keep doing the same way. My point was that even if they're changing tactics, things like not shooting targets already engaged is going to be ingrained and not going to be something Clan pilots do right away. Even if they start doing it, some are likely to get mad at the ones who do it for "interfering." These cultural handicaps can be overcome, but even when they are they will always exert some influence and handicap the Clans even slightly.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Thank you. The table top system had a balancing feature back in the day when the clans were first introduced. It was called the points system. This evolved into the current BV2 system. I can tell that everyone that who wants to make clans do zell either hate them just due to what they are or never fought as clans under the system of points or BV. The current BV system does a decent job or balancing forces so why add even more rules to make balancing either harder or not as much fun to play? What gets me is that the clans were introduced back in the 1990 time frame. So they have been with a game 22 of it's 28 years of existance. If they were that overpowered, then they would have gotten them rebalanced a LONG time ago before the game went to computers in the MW series or the mech commander series.

TT doesn't allow them to consistently make pinpoint shots with all their weapons at the extreme edge weapons range the way video games tend to. Also in TT you're more likely to get people who are willing and enjoy roleplaying the Clans and that cuts their advantages down to size.

And then you have the BV system which rates a 50 Clan 'Mech I built last night at 2,243 BV and my modified Cataphract at 1,630 BV. Despite the fact that my Cataphract is 20 tons heavier and uses endo-steel and DHS. Which just goes to show that the BV system simply handicaps the Clans by forcing them to use far smaller and/or less capable 'Mechs to achieve balance. Using Zellbrigen to minimize the range, heat and armor bonuses one could have the 70 ton Cataphract and the 70 ton Summoner duke it out on fairly even terms. Despite the fact that Summoner has anywhere from 600 to 1,400 points on the Cataphract BV wise.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Totatl Warfare page 273. Players should be aware, however, that it is generally difficult to accurately balance Battetech games, even under the rules of this section; the use of Clan honor makes absolute game balance impossible. (Found in Total Warfare, page 273) The game developers of the table top have made it clear that clan honor, aka zell, is impossible to get balanced in the game. It also states before that part that clans should have better skill sets or larger forces to offset the handicap of Clan honor. All players should agree to the use of clan honor before the start of play of the scenario. Also in Total Warfare page 273 same section.

It says that it is impossible to get a perfectly balanced game, even when you're using Zellbrigen to make it more balanced. Rather than make it clear that Zellbrigen makes the game imbalanced this says that Zellbrigen will make it more balanced, however its still impossible to make it perfectly balanced. Zellbrigen isn't the problem, Clan OP equipment is the problem and according to the game designers Zellbrigen is part of the solution, it just doesn't make it perfectly balanced.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

So why are you wanting to force clan pilots to use zell? The table top devs have stated it's impossible to balance completely the game, and that the use of the honor rules makes it even more impossible. You want role play in a war simulation game. Who says I would want to role play? I want to play the game.

No the TT devs said its impossible to perfectly balance the game, even when using Zellbrigen to make it more balanced! They do not say that Zellbrigen makes it more unbalanced, they say that even using Zellbrigen its impossible to make the game perfectly balanced. That means that without Zellbrigen the game is unbalanced and after Zellbrigen its still unbalanced, but not as badly unbalanced.

I'm saying that Zellbrigen has less to do with RP and more to do with creating a fun game where one side doesn't simply use their standoff ability to mass fire on their enemy before that enemy can return fire. Its not about making you RP its about cutting down the advantages of the Clan tech so that they're forced to engage the IS on closer to even terms.

phelancracken, on 08 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

The title of this thread says it all. Forcing clan pilots to use honor rules. ( i know, not the exact title, but essentially what it means.) How about we just declare trial of annialiation and be done with it.

Superiors can force Clan pilots to use Zellbrigen, so there is precedent for pilots being forced to follow Zellbrigen even when their enemies don't. Zellbrigen was designed to help decrease the Clans tech advantage and help make the game more balanced. Since the devs have the ability to program the game so that a certain level of Zellbrigen is enforced and the precedent exists, and Zellbrigen was intended to help balance the Clans down to where the IS had a fighting chance, why shouldn't the devs force players to abide by it?

[KageRyuu]

First and foremost you'd need a system of determining who is and who isn't a clan player, because tech doesn't make the man, men make the tech. Not to mention as a cold blooded merc if I some how manage to get a Summoner (Thor) or Mad Dog (Vulture) and maintain it, I don't want to be expected to play by clan rules, I'm a ******* merc not a clanner, I kill people for money not honor, and the tech of my mech doesn't change that.

Now, I suppose they could give incentive to people to declare themselves clanners by giving them early access to clan tech when it becomes available (ie clan beta?) while the rest of us can play the way we want as mercs and just deal with the tech gap like good IS pilots (ganging up on the enemy!), but expect them to play by clanner rules (Zellbrigen) rather than merc rules (which are none lol). Otherwise it's just a roleplay element because if someone claims to be a clanner and they don't voluntarily follow Zellbrigen, then they're little better than Mercs themselves.

Though I suppose when Clan tech does become widely available (ie after clan beta?), maybe they can drop the rules of Zellbrigen seeing as lore wise after the IS tricked the Clanners one too many times, the Clanners started disregarding Zellbrigen when fighting most IS units and even stopped issuing Batchalls before hand.

[Kartr]

KageRyuu, on 08 June 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

First and foremost you'd need a system of determining who is and who isn't a clan player, because tech doesn't make the man, men make the tech. Not to mention as a cold blooded merc if I some how manage to get a Summoner (Thor) or Mad Dog (Vulture) and maintain it, I don't want to be expected to play by clan rules, I'm a ******* merc not a clanner, I kill people for money not honor, and the tech of my mech doesn't change that.

Simple enough, allow people to create two pilots one IS and one Clan. The IS pilot never gets access to any Clan tech period and only fights on the same team as other IS players. The Clan pilot only uses Clan tech and only ever fights on the same side as other Clan players. Clan salvage was actually very rare in the IS and it makes sense to not let IS players have access to it from a lore perspective. It also makes sense to not let IS players have access to it from a gameplay point of view as well, as it would make it more difficult to balance out matches, and blur the lines between the two sides (IS v Clan) and make them more homogeneous.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Kartr, on 08 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Thanks for confirming that it was a way to balance the game before the points/BV systems were developed. I'd always figured that's why they were created because they seem like the exact types rules needed to help minimize the Clan advantage and prevent the IS from using the rules to force Clan players into suicidal situations. Still I wasn't playing when the Clans came out so I couldn't be sure.


Oh I totally understand that, you don't want to keep firing and blow your own 'Mech up do to overheating. But the rule doesn't say you have to fire all your weapons, just something. So not only does the rule force Clan players to keep doing things that generate heat, which decreases their heat advantage, it makes them very wary of Alpha striking and just decimating IS 'Mechs with one shot. If your Alpha doesn't kill them and you don't have a MG, you run the risk of being forced to build even more heat, making it a very very high risk/reward tactic. This would force good pilots to plan their shots so that they're always firing something, but never so much so fast that it would cause them to overheat.

It says that it is impossible to get a perfectly balanced game, even when you're using Zellbrigen to make it more balanced. Rather than make it clear that Zellbrigen makes the game imbalanced this says that Zellbrigen will make it more balanced, however its still impossible to make it perfectly balanced. Zellbrigen isn't the problem, Clan OP equipment is the problem and according to the game designers Zellbrigen is part of the solution, it just doesn't make it perfectly balanced.


No the TT devs said its impossible to perfectly balance the game, even when using Zellbrigen to make it more balanced! They do not say that Zellbrigen makes it more unbalanced, they say that even using Zellbrigen its impossible to make the game perfectly balanced. That means that without Zellbrigen the game is unbalanced and after Zellbrigen its still unbalanced, but not as badly unbalanced.

I'm saying that Zellbrigen has less to do with RP and more to do with creating a fun game where one side doesn't simply use their standoff ability to mass fire on their enemy before that enemy can return fire. Its not about making you RP its about cutting down the advantages of the Clan tech so that they're forced to engage the IS on closer to even terms.

Thing is though, Total Warfare says that Clans using zellbrigen are actually at a disadvantage & it also says it IS more about the RP than the actual technical or rules aspects ofthe game.

[Psydotek]

Why not just have clan teams bid for completing missions with the fewest amount of resources?

[Kartr]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 June 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Thing is though, Total Warfare says that Clans using zellbrigen are actually at a disadvantage & it also says it IS more about the RP than the actual technical or rules aspects ofthe game.

Um if you're talking about the quotes that phelancracken posted, those do not say the Clans are actually at a disadvantage. All they say is that it is impossible to balance the game even using the rules in the Zellbrigen section. Then it says that it is impossible to make the game absolutely balanced using Zellbrigen. A warning to players that Zellbrigen is not perfect even though it is designed to help balance the game.

As for the RPing part, well from the first section we know that Zellbrigen can be used to help balance the gameplay, and according to phelancracken it was originally the only official way to balance them, that doesn't mean that Zellbrigen can't be used to RP as well. So you can either balance the game by using basic BV and not really worry about RP, or you can use Zellbrigen and RP to do the balancing.

Personally I would rather see the devs use coding to enforce a certain level of zell as part of a system to achieve balance, rather than just go off of BV. It allows the Clan players more freedom to pick and customize the 'Mechs they want to use. It also allows the Clans to really keep their "OP tech, crippling mentality" while letting the IS be the "crappy tech, smart fighters" side. This makes it a more interesting dynamic in my opinion than just having one side be driving low tonnage 'Mechs because BV balancing doesn't allow them to take higher, type balancing.

[phelancracken]

Kartr, read the page 273 before you go there again. Seriously. I have the rule set at my fingertips. It's an optional rule for one. 2. It does state that to use zell Clans should have either superior skills or force advantage. So if it was a balanced rule why did it state that? And why is it an optional rule? Also, it has to be accepted by all players. Finally, and I do mean again finally, if it was so balanceable, it would have been used 22 YEARS ago. That's a fact. Encourage, I have no issues with, but force, no. That sets a tone for this. Let's force the IS to to do this __________ seeing as the clanners have to do zell. Only fair. Slippery slope. The core rules do a decent job of balancing the game. BV can at least get the forces very close to parity so it comes down to skill or luck. Zell won't do that or the devs of TT would have used that 22 years ago or figured out a way by now. The points system, which became the combat value system, which became the BV and finally BV2 have done that. Easily and reasonably fairly. Zell isn't a core rule. Never has and really what does it do for the essense of the game? What does it do for the Essense? Meaning the pure making the game function mechanics? Not one thing. This OP tech excuse, and I do mean excuse, is just code for "I want to beat the clanners and rub it in."

As for the clanners having to drive light mechs for BV, that's the choice you take when going clan tech. However, a Stormcrow I don't call a buzzsaw for no reason. Mean, nasty very effective 55 tonner that's actually able to hammer 70+ ton heavies. Better armour than a Warhammer in most of it's configs. It's actually playing INTO the clan way by using an inferior sized machine to take out a heavier mech.

[phelancracken]

Kartr, on 08 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Thanks for confirming that it was a way to balance the game before the points/BV systems were developed. I'd always figured that's why they were created because they seem like the exact types rules needed to help minimize the Clan advantage and prevent the IS from using the rules to force Clan players into suicidal situations. Still I wasn't playing when the Clans came out so I couldn't be sure.

Wrong......again. Try reading Battletech compendium rule set before going there again. I happen to have that also. copyright 1990. Same as TRO3050. Zell isn't mentioned in that ruleset as a balancing feature. That book is the CORE rules set for playing battletech.

Page 4 of the compendiumThe Battetech Compendium is a single source rulebook for players of Battletech and Aerotech. It includes all of the rules for Battletech, Citytech, and Aerotech games, as well as those introduced in various technical readouts and and other sourcebooks. This set of rules takes precedence over any previous publication, including the battetech manual.

The Compendium was written to accomplish three objectives: add optional rules that players have requested over the past few years, integrate the arrival of the clans into the basic battletech rules, and provide clarifications on already published rules. Page 4 Battletech compendium

Sequence of play core rules.

initiative phase
movement phase
reaction phase
weapon attack phase
physical attack phase
heat phase
end phase

No where in the core official rules is zell mentioned.

For the clans to be worked into the current system of 1990, these rules had to come out when the TRO3050 came out. We used the points system with the books that had the variant sheets and the mains for the mechs. The Technical Readouts.

No where in the Compendium is zellbringen mentioned. It was FLUFF.

Edited by phelancracken, 09 June 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[abetterpilot]

I was always amazed at how many players even thought the clans were cool. An invading force that doesnt even have mothers coming into our space and thinking they are all umboffos?
A cast system for cryin out loud, led by a bunch of do nothing blowhards dis-repecting everyone else, thats who you want to fight for?
It is a dead end system at the end of the day.
Where are the Robin Hoods, Bravehearts, Arthurs, patriots, lovers of liberty, men that wanted the best future for their children?
just sayin

[Jaroth Corbett]

Kartr, on 08 June 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Um if you're talking about the quotes that phelancracken posted, those do not say the Clans are actually at a disadvantage. All they say is that it is impossible to balance the game even using the rules in the Zellbrigen section. Then it says that it is impossible to make the game absolutely balanced using Zellbrigen. A warning to players that Zellbrigen is not perfect even though it is designed to help balance the game.

As for the RPing part, well from the first section we know that Zellbrigen can be used to help balance the gameplay, and according to phelancracken it was originally the only official way to balance them, that doesn't mean that Zellbrigen can't be used to RP as well. So you can either balance the game by using basic BV and not really worry about RP, or you can use Zellbrigen and RP to do the balancing.

Uhhhhhhhh no, I never mentioned phelan. I said Total Warfare said so.

abetterpilot, on 13 June 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

I was always amazed at how many players even thought the clans were cool. An invading force that doesnt even have mothers coming into our space and thinking they are all umboffos?
A cast system for cryin out loud, led by a bunch of do nothing blowhards dis-repecting everyone else, thats who you want to fight for?
It is a dead end system at the end of the day.
Where are the Robin Hoods, Bravehearts, Arthurs, patriots, lovers of liberty, men that wanted the best future for their children?
just sayin

Then be amazed. The people that left a diseased & corrupt system, forged a new path, their own culture, customs, laws, policies, improved tech, weapons, mechs, armor on their own while the IS was bombing itself senseless, then returned as promised & put in serious work on the armies of the IS. I wonder what all these people find cool about that? The Great Father wanted a better future for his children & all of the SLDF's children. The Clans honor code is based of off bushido & that of medieval knights. The Great Father fought against the tyranny of the Usurper FOR liberty. Perhaps you should do some reading.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 June 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[IronEricP]

This is directed at nobody in particular, its kinda just my two cents as a long time fan of Battletech, in many of its incarnations.

I look at it this way... if you are going to play a game in the Battletech universe and can't be bothered to care at least a little about the flavor of your faction... go play a basic FPS. This is a world that is DRIVEN by personality quirks, cultural ideals, and conflicting morals. Playing clan just for the tech means you're kinda missing out

[abetterpilot]

Jaroth Winson, on 13 June 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Uhhhhhhhh no, I never mentioned phelan. I said Total Warfare said so.





Then be amazed. The people that left a diseased & corrupt system, forged a new path, their own culture, customs, laws, policies, improved tech, weapons, mechs, armor on their own while the IS was bombing itself senseless, then returned as promised & put in serious work on the armies of the IS. I wonder what all these people find cool about that? The Great Father wanted a better future for his children & all of the SLDF's children. The Clans honor code is based of off bushido & that of medieval knights. The Great Father fought against the tyranny of the Usurper FOR liberty. Perhaps you should do some reading.

The great father sounds like l ron hubbard
You are talking about trusting someone to control unatural breeding lines spawned in test tubes.
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!

[Jaroth Corbett]

abetterpilot, on 13 June 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!

Which is what the Great Father thought when he fought the Usurper to free the IS from his reign of terror. It is also what the Founder thought when he retook the Pentagon Worlds. Again go read.

[Skylarr]

We all know that in 3050 the average Clan Warrior was better than the average IS warrior. the Clans were better trained, had better equipment and had experience live combat. Weight class to Weight class a Clan Mech can take on a Min of two IS mechs at the same time.

They put something in the game that was over powering. Then they tried to figure out a way to balance it.

I like the Clans and their history. I dislike how they invaded the Inner Sphere.

It seems to my that many of the players here who want to play Clanners are looking for ways, and reasons, not to fight honorably.

[abetterpilot]

real historys full of that, i dont need to read every bt novel to know things at the top are reserved for only those at the top in that system.
some one else deciding if im merchant, science, of warrior caste, if im lucky enough to be invited into any of the 3 at all. to be born in a tube, raised with a brood, no thank you.
if a wormhole opens and the enterprise pops out in this world i think they would help stop the clans too. id be with Kirk on this one.

[CW Grayson]

Some really good ideas here, i thank you for that.
I really hope they will not just throw in the clantech once it is availible. BV is a good start and absolutely neccecary but still doesn't prevent anyone using clantech.

Skylarr, on 07 June 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

How about this idea. For as long as the IS pilot stay inside the rues of the Zellbringing with the Clanner he also gains Honor points. Then in the future when the clanner is looking at what IS mech to challenge he can see that Mech HL (Honor Level) and vice versa.
Then in the future the IS warrior can buy Clan Weapons and equipment based on his HL. This would represent salvage he has gained. With a high enough HL the IS Mechwarrior can eventually buy a Clan Mech.

Now this i really like. There were some IS-Pilots gaining a clan-mech, but it should be a long way bound by honour, NOT BUYABLE WITH REAL MONEY!
Also no higher repair costs for clanmechs, this could be compensated by buying credits for real money, there you have pay2win.
For zellbrigen, the IS prooved that they're not worth it. So unless an IS-Unit accepts it (the targeting System someone mentioned here i also like) there's no way that clanners are bound to it.

What about that IS players are bound to credits- and clanners bound to honour-points? (Sorry if this was mentioned before).
You can buy credits, but you cannot EVER buy honour. I have no problem with clanners starting with an IS mech, it should be a long way to get hands on a clan machine. OtoH the maintenace for that mech should be normal, as devs stated you have always enough points to repair your mech once you loose, otherwise it would be a forced-to-pay to play further.

Dataman, on 08 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

hahaha this amuses me, clanners.
as long as you stick to your honorable code or something, you'll never win against a lance of so called freebirth.
IS warriors claims almost anything killing method is valid. teamwork? yep. legging the **** out of bigger mechs? yep.

And that's fine with me, as the clans are not bound to zellbrigen anyway when they fight the IS, as they haven proven not worthy (as any other kid that just gets a clanmech for sparkles).