156 replies to this topic

[Huntsman]

Having a strong build is indeed more important than persnal skill, map knowledge, or even teamwork as unbelieveable as that last bit is. In some ways I like that being good at building your mech is a significant skill in and of itself since I've seen some really crappy or poorly optimized variations of what might otherwise be a good build, or some builds that are just plain terrible in every way. One of my favorite pastimes is joining PUGs and spending the match LOL-ing at some of the hilarious builds you PUGs bring. Having said that, obviously there are some known builds that are OP and everyone more or less knows how to build it, like the SpatCat...so that takes no skill whatsoever.

One of the most glaring examples of how a good build is more important than any other consideration occured for me last week. We had a crack 8-man together and were dropping against another 8-man repeatedly, trouncing them every time. Both groups were of the same company and the guy hosting the event decided he wanted to avoid crushing the morale of the other 8-man completely, and asked us to run all trial mechs, while the folks we were annhilating were permitted to continue to bring their personal builds. After that, they didn't just beat us...it was a slaughter. The pendulum swung that wildly over to their favor.

[Teralitha]

Jman5, on 28 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I played against you last night Taralitha. You were in a Raven 3L with ECM and streaks.

In fact your premade 8-man team comp was

3 D-DC
2 Catapult K2s
1 Dragon
2 Raven 3L

Now, I don't care what you and your team likes to run, but it's kind of hypocritical to put down other players as cheesy when this is how you run.

No we did not have 3 ddc, at any time. we had 1. The other atlas were different varients. We had 1 k2 with gauss, and another cat with LRMs. I dont know which team you were that we played with, but lets just say I saw alot of srms and ecm. Our team composition wasnt the same every match.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 February 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[shabowie]

Vlad Ward, on 28 February 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I've never seen you play. I guess that says something about our relative Elo ratings.

I don't think it does. I've had god awful people on my team. I think the system tries to equalize so that the aggregate team ratings are similar and you can find a variety of skill levels in any given match.

[Lykaon]

There is something to be said about the direction the game has been heading.

ECM as a game mechanic promotes stacking of ECM.Why bring one when two is better,why stop at two bring 5 or 6 or more.
In 8 v 8 it's fairly common to find teams with over 50% ECM with 5 to 6 being the norm.

The reason is ECM is the only real counter to ECM and the best way to avoid disabled ECM from PPC fire is more redundant ECM.

TAG is not a counter to ECM dispite what people have been lead to believe.TAG does not nullify ECM it mitigates the ECM sensor cloak and lock on jamming for the ONE target being TAGed.TAG does not prevent an ECM equiped mech from maintaining the 180m cloak bubble or jamming locks for friendlies that are cloaked.TAG does not prevent an ECM from disabling IFF or prevent critical data from being transmitted from the other mechs under ECM bubble.

TAG mitigates the effects of ECM on one target it does not counter ECM.

ECM set to counter mode does indeed counter ECM and is also the only means of countering enemy ECM that isn't kind enough to stand in the open long enough to be stuck with PPC fire every 4 seconds.

Now how is this ECM effecting "cheese" builds?

Well let's look at splattercats. 6 X SRM6 Catapult A1.

The strengths of this design are ...

Maximum mobility for a 65 ton mech.The Spattercat can easily mount a 315 XL engine and 4 jumpjets making it topped out for movement options available.

Maximum armor values.

Punishing alpha strike and damage output.

And lastly Catapult's have extremely good torso rotiations allowing for ease of bringing this punishing damage to bear.

The weaknes of the Splattercat is..

Very short effective range.

ECM has mitigated this weakness conciderably.With ECM cover a Splattercat can lurk unnoticed until the battle is joined and then spring out an exterminate targets nearly at will.
ECM has removed the ability for opposition to the Splattercat to passivley detect the threat.They will not see it as a blip on the radar or as an enemy target highlighted on the horizon.They will not get a critical data transmition telling them the A1 is packed with SRM6s and that it should be avoided/focused.

These same ECM effects allow for other "cheese" builds to flourish.
The AC20 K2 catapult ( or what I call the BlattCat) can also benifit like the Splattercat.
Poptartaphracts remain hiden from passive detection during their ascent and are difficult to detect while covered by ECM.

Previously a good solid counter to short range "cheese" mechs was concentrated LRM fire.This of course has also been heavily mitigated by ECM.

Since ECM's introduction the game dynamic has shifted to heavily favor mech builds that unload massive damage in short periods of time.

And that is where we are right now.

[Konrad]

M A L I C E, on 28 February 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

....speak for yourself.

This coming from a guy that boats LRM. Legit.

[Jman5]

Teralitha, on 28 February 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

No we did not have 3 ddc, at any time. we had 1. The other atlas were different varients. We had 1 k2 with gauss, and another cat with LRMs. I dont know which team you were that we played with, but lets just say I saw alot of srms and ecm. Our team composition wasnt the same every match.

You sure did.



(yes it was a very bad game for us. To preserve my precious ego, I'll include the game before against the same group minus Teralitha)

[Ghogiel]

Jman5, on 28 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I played against you last night Taralitha. You were in a Raven 3L with ECM and streaks.

In fact your premade 8-man team comp was

3 D-DC
2 Catapult K2s
1 Dragon
2 Raven 3L

Now, I don't care what you and your team likes to run, but it's kind of hypocritical to put down other players as cheesy when this is how you run.

this thread, and he was in a 3L?

hahahah.. ha

[Ghogiel]

M A L I C E, on 28 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I really don't think a PB with 3xLRM15+TAG can even remotely qualify as a cheesebuild. lol.

LRM boats are cheese.

[Vlad Ward]

M A L I C E, on 28 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I really don't think a PB with 3xLRM15+TAG can even remotely qualify as a cheesebuild. lol.

Pretty much. I'd say it qualifies as one of the worst PB builds I've ever heard of. Double LRM15s in 4-tube launchers. If you're not using that thing to mid-range brawl, it's an absolute waste.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 28 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

some would say Jump sniping is all skill. I'm not sure since it seems like a duck shoot from my perspective.

ah I call em clay pigeons!

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

LRM boats are cheese.

how precisely? Try playing one first.

[Kraven Kor]

El Bandito, on 28 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Let cheesers cheese. Once the cheese is gone, they will be worse than everyone.

There will always be cheese. Any nerf or buff to counter cheese will simply create the next variety of cheese.

Cheese is not necessary to win.

Cheese helps the average player do OK, and the good player to do very well.

But Cheese is always a one-trick pony.

Great players don't need cheese.

I pilot a D-DC in 8v8

[Kaspirikay]

>implying this game was about skill before

[Teralitha]

Jman5, on 28 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

You sure did.



(yes it was a very bad game for us. To preserve my precious ego, I'll include the game before against the same group minus Teralitha)

Ah, that must have just been that one match, I know most of our matches didnt have so many DDC. If it makes you feel better, we lost many matches after that one.... mostly decimation by srm boats under the cover of ecm.

Win or lose, I dont find the game enjoyable or honest, and certainly not centered around skill, in 8 man premades.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 February 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Malora Sidewinder]

honestly dude i'm one of the best players, i don't have a problem with any of the above. you may be good, but you aren't good enough to get through the advantages lesser pilots will use.

[Vapor Trail]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 February 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

So, I'm confused. Is there, or is there not steak and cheese to be had?

Gormet Streak and Cheese!

A black Raven 3L mounting multiple SSRMs following around a Catapult A1 painted solid Aqua mounting 6 SRM6s.

Well done Streaks with Blue Cheese.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 28 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[Teralitha]

Malora Sidewinder, on 28 February 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

honestly dude i'm one of the best players, i don't have a problem with any of the above. you may be good, but you aren't good enough to get through the advantages lesser pilots will use.

Well... that pretty much makes the point of my topic ring true, doesnt it? Its not about skill.

[Ghogiel]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 February 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

how precisely? Try playing one first.

They have always been cheese.

I still remember LRMwarrior online. And I still remember the next level, ArtemisLRMwarrior online. Ah, the good old days when the LRM cheese was real stinky.

I have played them.

[Teralitha]

Ghogiel, on 28 February 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

They have always been cheese.

I still remember LRMwarrior online. And I still remember the next level, ArtemisLRMwarrior online. Ah, the good old days when the LRM cheese was real stinky.

I have played them.

LRMs have many hard counters. They are not cheese. You can... stand behind a rock, you can... get within 180 meters... you can wear AMS... There are no counters to real cheese, except... moar cheese.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 February 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Zylo]

Jman5, on 28 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I played against you last night Taralitha. You were in a Raven 3L with ECM and streaks.

In fact your premade 8-man team comp was

3 D-DC
2 Catapult K2s
1 Dragon
2 Raven 3L

Now, I don't care what you and your team likes to run, but it's kind of hypocritical to put down other players as cheesy when this is how you run.

Wait, do I see a DRAGON listed in that group? That means no matter what the rest of the team is running it can't possibly be a cheesebuild group because it contains a dragon.

A true cheesebuild group would have something better than a dragon in that 3rd heavy spot.

A dragon in the group means there is no cheese. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Konrad, on 28 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

This coming from a guy that boats LRM. Legit.

Yeah thats so horrible there are builds for that exact "role" but in THIS game you get crucified for wanting to run LRM boats