62 replies to this topic

[Stoicblitzer]

Yokaiko, on 02 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I get a giggle there. You would be surprised if you pulled off that "Noble Pug" cape and actually watched the goings on in the public servers, the 4 mans actually go out of their way to congratulate each other when they notice that another dropship group is on the other side.

There is NO single player, there is no PvE there isn't so much as a training ground. The best team wins and people that just want FFA aren't going to be the best team players, ever. They need to get over that idea. If you want to solo kill everying go play planetside, there are a lot more targets.

Well segregating pugs and premades would certainly put all pugs on a level playing field in an ideal Elo Utopia.

[Yokaiko]

Stoicblitzer, on 02 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Well segregating pugs and premades would certainly put all pugs on a level playing field in an ideal Elo Utopia.

That sounds like hell on earth. Kind of like herding cats on a 50 acre field with a bad knee.

[Stoicblitzer]

Integrated VOIP would also solve this advantage. Forgot to mention that in my dissertation above.

[Epyon001]

Hekalite, on 02 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I dropped solo for a bunch Thursday night and was getting slaughtered, though I a lot of that was due to a bad build while leveling my hunchbacks. Later the same night I dropped with a 4 man and the quality of opponent and matches was drastically different. It was like a whole different game. I just finished dropping solo again for a few hours and the experience was not really that bad. I got stomped some and I was on the stomping team a few times too.

It's all luck of the draw. You can't let a single defeat or even a bad run discourage you. Just take your lumps and move on. If you really feel the matches are always unfair, I suggest you make a log of wins, losses and the margin of vitory. I suspect at the end of a stretch of matches the numbers won't really be as bad as it feels just after you get stomped.

Oh, plus additional match maker tweaks/fine tuning are incoming.

Don't get me wrong I dont mind losing, but my preference is to be on a level playing field when I do. Just a wild guess, but I would say that only around 20%ish of my games are vs premades.

While the percentage of games impacted by the problem isnt huge I still feel its significant enough to warrant change.

I guess the problem boils down to 4man que times vs a level/fair playing field and what nets the most Fun for all parties. During non peak hours segregating 4man making them wait till another 4man is ready to drop might cause problems, but during peak hours there is no reason why a 4man should drop vs an all pug group.

[Jestun]

GoManGo, on 02 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

WOW another (PUG HATER & SUPER TROLL) owe is this the same one? there are so many I cant count them all. The thing is premades and some don't get that some players just like playing (SOLO) as in FFA'S. Like this clown and many don't understand premade teams some are very good and some really suuckkk so the better ones prey on the worst ones till all that is left is a few good premade teams that wont play each other and only want to slaughter noobs/pugs and weak premades. That is why you don't see a queue for teams only and PGI wont segregate premade teams against all else because they cry to much about having to play each other.

I only queue solo or as a duo with my brother.

I *am* a pug player.

:edit:

And having a different opinion from you is not trolling.

*sigh*

Edited by Jestun, 02 March 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Greyfyl]

Why in the world you would go to the trouble of implementing ELO without enforcing a system where premades HAVE to fight other premades is beyond me.

It seems to me to be outright catering to the premade faction of the playerbase. PGI wants them to feel special I guess.

[Yokaiko]

Greyfyl, on 02 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Why in the world you would go to the trouble of implementing ELO without enforcing a system where premades HAVE to fight other premades is beyond me.

It seems to me to be outright catering to the premade faction of the playerbase. PGI wants them to feel special I guess.

Pretty sure that they did.

I know that I saw game with at least 3 4 mans in them more often than not thus far today. Both when I was grouped and running solo.


If they were catering to teams only there wouldn't be four mans and you screaming pugs would still have to deal with marauding 8 mans against your un-organized selves.

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 March 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Epyon001]

Greyfyl, on 02 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Why in the world you would go to the trouble of implementing ELO without enforcing a system where premades HAVE to fight other premades is beyond me.

It seems to me to be outright catering to the premade faction of the playerbase. PGI wants them to feel special I guess.

I agree with the first part, but I dont think they are catering to premades.

I think they havent bother with it because its a change that wont generate revenue or they are just apathetic to the issue.

[GoManGo]

(Yokaiko)->I pug solo more often than not. He's right there is a LOT of stupid.
I would say more inexperience than stupid but if you want to be in the same class as your fellows a (pug hater &super troll) join that crowd?.

Edited by GoManGo, 02 March 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Epyon001, on 02 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Elo doesn't fix it. Elo is a measurement for a players skill. Even the less skilled members of a 4 man are at a huge advantage because they can pre build mechs that work well with the strengths and weaknesses of their 3 other group members and have a much quicker reaction time over voip to assist their fellow pug stompers.

Granted there are issues where good players play bad players etc..but

PUGs will lose those matches and lower their Elo. Pugstompers will get higher Elo.

Quote

Plus they have their better players leading them by the hand making their decisions better effectively improving their ability and making their personal Elo, in a way, higher. (Assuming the person they are taking orders from is the better player)

Pugs will lose against better players. And that will lower their Elo. Players who Pugstomp wil have higher Elos.

[PhobiaOne]

There is a FREE TeamSpeak Server that PGI put out there (2 actually) so that PUGs could group up. Either use the tools provided, or stop whining. Yes the C3 VoIP would help a lot, but PGI has let that fall by the wayside. There is also the Commander option that can be used to try and herd the cats in a direction, but like someone else said...you can't fix stupid, and a lot of PUGs won't listen no matter what you do. Also, just because you get rolled doesn't mean that the other side is a premade....just means that the other team stuck together, and played smart.

[GoManGo]

Jestun, on 02 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

I only queue solo or as a duo with my brother.

I *am* a pug player.

:edit:

And having a different opinion from you is not trolling.

*sigh*

When you crossed the line by calling us all (stupid) it just pissed me off

[Yokaiko]

PhobiaOne, on 02 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

There is a FREE TeamSpeak Server that PGI put out there (2 actually) so that PUGs could group up.

Three actually, the two Comstar Relay, and No Guts No Galaxy

PhobiaOne, on 02 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Either use the tools provided, or stop whining. Yes the C3 VoIP would help a lot, but PGI has let that fall by the wayside. There is also the Commander option that can be used to try and herd the cats in a direction, but like someone else said...you can't fix stupid, and a lot of PUGs won't listen no matter what you do.

...and this is why comms are an advantage but not an unfair one, and before anyone gets into the "I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO USE 3RD PARTY!!11!@!@@!!!" BS, the integrated comms ARE going to be C3, that by definition IS 3rd party get used to the idea.

PhobiaOne, on 02 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Also, just because you get rolled doesn't mean that the other side is a premade....just means that the other team stuck together, and played smart.

Also this.

[Xavier Wulf]

grayson marik, on 02 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Yepp, a lobby could be implemented and groups be taken from the pug queue.


You are wrong. droping with a group, connected by TS is a advantage over pugs.

And while i dissagree with the pugs, blaming the teams for their bad experience, ( its a PGI invented problem not a player problem) the point still stands.

To make both usergroups happy, a lobby is needed next to the pug queue asap.
Otherwise this hate discussions will very soon have impact on the public view on MWO.

Sigh, yes it is an advantage to use TS, but your argument is like saying "No fair he beat me in a sword fight because I decided to use a butter knife instead of a real sword". It is the PUGs choice not to use TS. We made the choice to use teamwork and TS to have fun and play well, PUGs made the choice to solo and not use teamwork (Or rarely type ingame for communication). Everyone has the ability to download TS, and therefore there is nothing unfair about it.

Quit complaining about an issue that the PUGs created because they don't want to use teamwork and just want to play "GIANT STOMPY ROBOT GO BOOOOOM!!!"

grayson marik, on 02 March 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I agree to the lack of working VOIP for pugs.

What I disagree is your point about pugs resisiting to play the game, like you would like it to be played.

Thats what the pug queue ist made for: dropping random players together for some fast games during your launchbreak.

The bad point about it is that PGI simply does not see that the PUG queue mixed with groups is by no way a desireable gaming experience. They simply took the worst feature from WoT to copy.

This game should be pugs only for the pugs and lobby for all the team and other styles of matches.

There is no reason, why you should not be able to run a ffa in a lobby.

Such a tool would spare the pugs from the teams and would finally allow even you to play only with people, who share your vision about MWO, without denying the other possible visions about MWO gameplay in any way!

If your argument is that premades want pugs to play a certain way, you are wrong. Its PUGs that want premades to play a certain way *hence PUGs complaining about groups, not groups complaining about PUGs*.

The reason why lobbies/seperate queues for premades and pugs won't work is similar to why the 8v8 premade games are terrible. What happens if you have a group of 3 people? will you be matched against a group of 4 and 4 and fight alongside a group of 4? Balancing numbers will become extremely difficult and result in poorly matched games.

Poorly matched games are already here however. ELO matches based off of the average stats of the entire team resulting in great players and terrible players on the same team vs. the same or an average group of players. By separating premades from PUGs and dividing the player base again, games will become even more unbalanced, at least for premades.

Also, if premades only run cheesebuilds, PUGs dilute the amount of cheese in each game. Instead with the segregation of premades and PUgs, we get to have (Example:)4 splatcats and 4 3Ls on a team, (2 premades on same team) vs. premade groups that dont cheesebuild, as apposed to the typical 4man premade + PUGs vs 4man premade + PUGs (Even if there are premade cheesebuilds, there won't be as much cheese in the game)

All in all, your points are invalid and you want the game to cater to you. I don't understand PUGs that are against teamwork in a self proclaimed teamwork based game.

[Taemien]

Epyon001, on 02 March 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Can anything be done about 4mans droping vs. full pug groups.

Boating, ECM, ravens, catapults, SRM, and LRM are all fair to me because of counterplay, but teamwork is overpowered when you are solo.
The level of teamwork a full pug can achieve will never match a group of 4 that use voip and are use to playing with each other.

Will anything be done to ensure their groups are only paired up vs other groups?

I don't actually see an issue, and here is why:

Just yesterday a buddy of mine and I dropped in a match which had a premade. Four players all with the DC icon and founders icon with similar names, and if this wasn't a coincident enough it was a Atlas DDC, Raven 3L, and two Trebuchets running together.

They got utterly stomped by our 6 man PUG plus 2 man premade (if you can call that a premade).

4 man premades are not the end and be all nasty force everyone makes them out to be. Heck when I played MWLL there were some units that would group up on one side. There was one or two units that I hoped would NOT join my team because I knew I would probably lose badly, even if the other team was a PUG. I'd imagine they play here too and I hope they aren't on my team here too for the same reason.

Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, just like everyone else.

[Mystere]

Epyon001, on 02 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Ignoring a problem doesn't fix it.

It may be a problem for you. It most certainly is not for me.

[Jestun]

Greyfyl, on 02 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

Why in the world you would go to the trouble of implementing ELO without enforcing a system where premades HAVE to fight other premades is beyond me.

It seems to me to be outright catering to the premade faction of the playerbase. PGI wants them to feel special I guess.

1. It's beta
2. Small population

It's quite simple...

GoManGo, on 02 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

When you crossed the line by calling us all (stupid) it just pissed me off

All?

"Puggers who are incapable of communicating or focusing the same target as everyone else do, that's the problem"

Those are the people I was talking about, it's specified right there in my post.

It's a specific subset of pug players, I at no point claimed that all pug players were like that.

Edited by Jestun, 02 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Could have sworn that teams get their Elo score boosted by the matchmaker when it searches for matches.

[GoManGo]

Xavier Wolf->All in all, your points are invalid and you want the game to cater to you. I don't understand PUGs that are against teamwork in a self proclaimed teamwork based game. -> My point to premades is I have been on coms I do have TS3 installed I don't like it I have found few players I enjoy talking to on coms. From MY point of view until I find a group of players I like and want to play group games with its MY choice to be in a group or on coms. My comment is from my experiences so far with teams and clans I have encountered. When I pug 90% of the time I do try my best to help my team win and like my fellow pugs im not stupid or un sympathetic to the plights of premade teams. But from what I have found to be true is most are so Arrogant and self absorbed there really a pain in the assss to be around and listen too on coms.A few have been real cool people and my time spent with this select few was entertaining and informative on the MechWarrior IP and all the games and tactics that were used by them in past games and MWO.I hope this helps out the (PUG haters & Super Trolls) to understand we don't all want it the premade way but like me maybe in the future I will find a group or team I wish to play on.

[Stoicblitzer]

GoManGo, on 02 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Xavier Wolf->All in all, your points are invalid and you want the game to cater to you. I don't understand PUGs that are against teamwork in a self proclaimed teamwork based game. -> My point to premades is I have been on coms I do have TS3 installed I don't like it I have found few players I enjoy talking to on coms. From MY point of view until I find a group of players I like and want to play group games with its MY choice to be in a group or on coms. My comment is from my experiences so far with teams and clans I have encountered. When I pug 90% of the time I do try my best to help my team win and like my fellow pugs im not stupid or un sympathetic to the plights of premade teams. But from what I have found to be true is most are so Arrogant and self absorbed there really a pain in the assss to be around and listen too on coms.A few have been real cool people and my time spent with this select few was entertaining and informative on the MechWarrior IP and all the games and tactics that were used by them in past games and MWO.I hope this helps out the (PUG haters & Super Trolls) to understand we don't all want it the premade way but like me maybe in the future I will find a group or team I wish to play on.