142 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

Volthorne, on 02 March 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

The 3L is already the best Raven, because it has the biggest engine. The 2D is already the best Mando because it has the most missile hardpoints. The 5D is the best Spider because arm-mounted laser. The D-DC is (arguably) the best Atlas because it supports the highest damaging alpha-strike. The Cicadas are all generally the same.

You're taking the best variant of each chassis and giving it exclusive gear that only makes it better with no downside. This is unacceptable, an apparently very hard to understand because no one has an IQ over 60 (with the exception of those who can actually SEE and are willing to acknowledge that ECM is broke as hell).

This is what I mean: Limited frame of reference.

No one cares what the most effective Raven is. People only care what the most effective Light Mech is.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 02 March 2013 - 06:28 PM.

[Volthorne]

Vlad Ward, on 02 March 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

This is what I mean: Limited frame of reference.

No one cares what the most effective Raven is. People only care what the most effective Light Mech is.

And that depends on what job you want to do. Unfortunately, ECM effectively "c*ck blocks" (for lack of a better term) anything except those 'Mechs with ECM from carrying out said jobs. Want a mobile scout? Don't take a 5V, take a 5D. Want a combat scout? 2D or 3L instead of anything actually meant to do so (arguably the 2D was built for that purpose, but it shouldn't have ECM in the first place).

And you say I have a limited frame of reference.

And you have nothing to say about "taking the best and only making it better". How very unsurprising.

Edited by Volthorne, 02 March 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Volthorne, on 02 March 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

And you have nothing to say about "taking the best and only making it better". How very unsurprising.

This would only be the case if they gave ECM to the JR7-D.

So long as every Light in the game has the exact same speed cap, there is no difference between a mobile scout and a combat scout.

Lights under 35t will only become useful when/if they can start going 200 or 250kph

[Livewyr]

Volthorne; why do you give credence to the idea of balancing different mechs with an exclusive piece of overpowered equipment; by saying that PGI did a bad job of implementing it? (as if it were valid in the first place)

Here is why "balancing" different mechs with exclusive overpowered pieces of equipment is a bad idea: (We'll call it "BOE" for short)

Lets take the machine gun Spider.. clearly It has a problem, it isn't heavy enough to mount more than one Anti-Mech weapon (at least in the ballistics department) The 4 Ballistic Cicada has the same problem. Under the logic of BOE: PGI should invent a Compact Gauss Rifle. It maintains the damage of the Gauss, but brings it down to 4 critical spaces and 4 tons. This way the Ballistic Spider and Ballistic Cicada become "viable" contenders as lighter mechs.

Just because it made the Cicada and the Spider better than they were, does not mean that is is balanced...

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

cute mystere, another person completely misunderstanding my sig and trying to use it against me. why don't you go sit in the dunce corner with hammer.

Vlad...we all know streaks and LRMs are broken, nobody has said anything to the contrary in this thread. the issue is that some people seem to like that the currently horrid 'fix' (ECM) all bit eliminates streaks and LRMs(rather than fixing them), and those people only brawl or snipe anyways.

for the record, I pilot everything, hammer and mystere, everything. I have seen the issue from all sides. I've been on both sides of the argument, I, unlike you two boneheads have actually looked at the issue from all perspectives, not just the one(s) I like. you're dismissed. (you for a second time, hammer. )

I also love how that tool Carlyle isn't reporting these comments but reports mine. Birds of a feather flock together I guess.

And I've been on all sides too, and you're still wrong, so you got that going for you.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

I have seen the issue from all sides ...

And what makes you think I also haven't? Unlike you, though, I do not consider ECM an issue because they can be dealt with with the proper load out. In fact, I like gunning for ECM-equipped mechs, and that's without using one myself. Heck, I even use streaks and LRMs to kill them.

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Volthorne; why do you give credence to the idea of balancing different mechs with an exclusive piece of overpowered equipment; by saying that PGI did a bad job of implementing it? (as if it were valid in the first place)

Here is why "balancing" different mechs with exclusive overpowered pieces of equipment is a bad idea: (We'll call it "BOE" for short)

Lets take the machine gun Spider.. clearly It has a problem, it isn't heavy enough to mount more than one Anti-Mech weapon (at least in the ballistics department) The 4 Ballistic Cicada has the same problem. Under the logic of BOE: PGI should invent a Compact Gauss Rifle. It maintains the damage of the Gauss, but brings it down to 4 critical spaces and 4 tons. This way the Ballistic Spider and Ballistic Cicada become "viable" contenders as lighter mechs.

Just because it made the Cicada and the Spider better than they were, does not mean that is is balanced...

Also because clearly you know nothing, it's calle the light guass rifle, this weapon already exists (falls in the clan period for release date) for the exact reason you mentioned.

Jesus you have no clue

Edit: looked it up, 3056

Edited by hammerreborn, 02 March 2013 - 07:31 PM.

[Volthorne]

Vlad Ward, on 02 March 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

This would only be the case if they gave ECM to the JR7-D.

So long as every Light in the game has the exact same speed cap, there is no difference between a mobile scout and a combat scout.

Lights under 35t will only become useful when/if they can start going 200 or 250kph

Because the JR7-D is TOTALLY the be-all-end-all. How about no?

And please tell my 5V with 12 jump jets how anything but another 5V is as mobile as it is.

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Volthorne; why do you give credence to the idea of balancing different mechs with an exclusive piece of overpowered equipment;

If you're referring to my earlier post about the aim-drifter, I was trying to be overly ridiculous to show how broken ECM is. I forgot that this is the Internet and quite literally nothing you say can be dumb enough to invoke the "sarcasm-*****"'s reaction.

EDIT: wow, gl + and is blocked? Dafuq?

Edited by Volthorne, 02 March 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[Team Leader]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

And pretending that simply curbing missile boats is enough to make it "right" would these two pieces of equipment also be OK?

Magnetic Field Calibrator: MFC
-1.5ton 2 Crit space equipment that reduces the speed of any projectile (fired from outside 270 meters) so much that it does little or no damage. The MFC could be disabled for 4 seconds by hitting the mech with a PPC to overload the calibrator, or training an Energy Drain beam on the mech. (Same style as TAG) Two MFCs within 180 meters of each other would overload each others' systems and cancel out the field.
Available on the Jenner D, Spider V, Catapult A1, and Atlas D.

Dense Fog Generator: DFG
-1.5ton 2 Crit Space equipment that envelopes the mech in Fog so that lasers have to be on target for .5 seconds in order to burn through it an do damage (with the remainder of the beam.) PPC charges would disperse in the fog in the form of lightning that would do 3-5 damage to the mech. This fog could be dissipated by a mech using Jump jets near it, using flamers on it, or by hitting it with missiles to disperse the cloud.
Available on the Hunchback 4G, Dragon 1N, Awesome 8Q, and Stalker 5M.

Those systems would certainly curb those snipers, therefore they're worth it.
Right?

It would take putting these in game for ECM lovers to see why ECM is so OP. chances are about half would just be like "huh yeah seems balanced!"
Also thanks for using this analogy, I felt quite clever proposing a laser ECM system in my one thread lol you however have mastered it!

[Volthorne]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Also because clearly you know nothing, it's calle the light guass rifle, this weapon already exists (falls in the clan period for release date) for the exact reason you mentioned.

Jesus you have no clue

Edit: looked it up, 3056

Taken from Sarna.net:

WEIGHT: 12 tons (down 3)
CRITS: 5 (down 2)
DAMAGE: 8 points (down 7)

Yeah, that's kinda not worth taking. Plus, it would have to lose another 4 tons, 1 crit, and gain 5 damage, AND THEN be chassis-limited to be as broken as ECM is.

You're really not getting this are you? Let me type it out real slow-like so you understand:

ECM.

IS.

DONE.

BROKE.

AS.

HELL.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

I also love how that tool Carlyle isn't reporting these comments but reports mine. Birds of a feather flock together I guess.

And I've been on all sides too, and you're still wrong, so you got that going for you.

Clearly you haven't.. or you would be very annoyed that as a light you have a real big problem with a bunch of 3Ls,
as a missile support mech, you'd be disgusted that some toolbag that put 1.5 tons of tiny equipment on his mech in the mechlab and forgot about it has required you to train a laser on him in order to use 3-20+ tons of your weaponry just for the chance to fire at him.
You'd be very annoyed that bringing missiles to a map where LoS is utterly impossible to maintain (namely anywhere with snipers) that in order for your team to defeat the enemy teams ECM, you have to have MORE ECM than them.

Mystere, on 02 March 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

And what makes you think I also haven't? Unlike you, though, I do not consider ECM an issue because they can be dealt with with the proper load out. In fact, I like gunning for ECM-equipped mechs, and that's without using one myself. Heck, I even use streaks and LRMs to kill them.

Well so could my MFC and DFG from a few pages ago.. but nobody was clamoring for that..
Any time the odds are in your favor with ECM (You have more than them) missiles can happen.
The big problem with you two is: You both actually DO see the problem with a tiny piece of equipment eliminating an entire class of weapons, you just like that they aren't your favorite weapons.

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Also because clearly you know nothing, it's calle the light guass rifle, this weapon already exists (falls in the clan period for release date) for the exact reason you mentioned.

Jesus you have no clue

Edit: looked it up, 3056

Yeah.. I did know about the Light Gauss, I know the Heavy Gauss, and the Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifles.. none of them weigh 4 tons, or take up 4 critical slots, or do standard Gauss damage..

But good try.

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Clearly you haven't.. or you would be very annoyed that as a light you have a real big problem with a bunch of 3Ls,
as a missile support mech, you'd be disgusted that some toolbag that put 1.5 tons of tiny equipment on his mech in the mechlab and forgot about it has required you to train a laser on him in order to use 3-20+ tons of your weaponry just for the chance to fire at him.
You'd be very annoyed that bringing missiles to a map where LoS is utterly impossible to maintain (namely anywhere with snipers) that in order for your team to defeat the enemy teams ECM, you have to have MORE ECM than them.

You mean as a light like Jenner d which I have just short of a million EXTRA xp in? Ya, I know nothing about ECM from playing countless hours in the one mech out of every single one in this game most effected by it (after all, until elo by piloting it I was guaranteeing myself a fight against ECM 2d or 3l). Oh, and with 75% of my games in my jenners I have a 3k/d ratio. So much for being destroyed by 3ls, lol.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

The big problem with you two is: You both actually DO see the problem with a tiny piece of equipment eliminating an entire class of weapons, you just like that they aren't your favorite weapons.

Did you miss the part where I said I use streaks and LRMs to kill ECM-equipped mechs?

And this is what I don't get. We all know what ECMs are capable of as they currently exist. We also know what equipment they have no or limited effect on. So why do people insist on only using equipment they know will be useless against ECM? Why not use mixed load outs instead?

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

You mean as a light like Jenner d which I have just short of a million EXTRA xp in? Ya, I know nothing about ECM from playing countless hours in the one mech out of every single one in this game most effected by it (after all, until elo by piloting it I was guaranteeing myself a fight against ECM 2d or 3l). Oh, and with 75% of my games in my jenners I have a 3k/d ratio. So much for being destroyed by 3ls, lol.

Skilled 3L vs Skilled Jenner: 3L wins. (problem with your anecdote; is that (I would wager) most people who would absolutely destroy in the 3L because of how overpowered it is, don't play it.. in my case, it's specifically because it's overpowered. I run my Jenner instead, and I too ruin 3Ls.. but only because I'm significantly better than the 3L's pilot.)

Edited by Livewyr, 02 March 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 02 March 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

Did you miss the part where I said I use streaks and LRMs to kill ECM-equipped mechs?

Streaks:
Then either you had your own ECM, or ECM ally.. or they were incredibly stupid and didn't get within 180..
LRMs: You can.. all you gotta do is give that mech your utmost attention while he blissfully runs about mostly immune to you.

Mystere, on 02 March 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

And this is what I don't get. We all know what ECMs are capable of as they currently exist. We also know what equipment they have no or limited effect on. So why do people insist on only using equipment they know will be useless against ECM? Why not use mixed load outs instead?

Refusing your logic:
Why bother wasting tonnage on LRMs? 3+ tons on something I probably won't get to use? Would rather put SRMs or something in that missile slot...

Following your logic:
Balanced loadouts when indeed make the MFC and DFG totally cool too.. would you like to start a campaign to add those?

[hammerreborn]

Keep moving those goalposts!

ECM is bad because even though you kill 3l with superior skill and non-reliance on ssrms, it's only because all the really skilled people aren't using 3Ls. Which means the 3L isn't as good as people say it is or it would be exclusively used.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 02 March 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Keep moving those goalposts!

ECM is bad because even though you kill 3l with superior skill and non-reliance on ssrms, it's only because all the really skilled people aren't using 3Ls. Which means the 3L isn't as good as people say it is or it would be exclusively used.

Or.. there are those of us who refuse to drive something that has an advantage through mechanic, and not through skill.
There's a lot of us.

--------------------
Now, back to the original question that NOBODY SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER. What is a the con to mounting ECM? What possible reason is there NOT to mount it?

(AMS, BAP, TAG, NARC, and Artemis all have reasons you wouldn't mount them.. they're not overpowered.)

[Vlad Ward]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Skilled 3L vs Skilled Jenner: 3L wins. (problem with your anecdote; is that (I would wager) most people who would absolutely destroy in the 3L because of how overpowered it is, don't play it.. in my case, it's specifically because it's overpowered. I run my Jenner instead, and I too ruin 3Ls.. but only because I'm significantly better than the 3L's pilot.)

lol no. Auto-aim weapons are always handicaps for skilled players who can place shots more effectively than the tracker.

The reason many Aces don't play Lights at the moment is it's a lot easier to put a team's Aces in Assaults and Heavies and put any random dude in the 3L knowing he'll at least do decently.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Streaks:
Then either you had your own ECM, or ECM ally...

Nope, I had neither.

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

or they were incredibly stupid and didn't get within 180 ...

Or maybe I am just a better pilot/gunner than you give me credit for.

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Refusing your logic:
Why bother wasting tonnage on LRMs? 3+ tons on something I probably won't get to use? Would rather put SRMs or something in that missile slot...

By the same logic:
Why use SRMs when there is a possibility I will be placed in a map they might be useless in now -- Alpine Peaks -- or in the future.

Livewyr, on 02 March 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Following your logic:
Balanced loadouts when indeed make the MFC and DFG totally cool too.. would you like to start a campaign to add those?

I will not start a campaign to add them. But, you can be sure I will try to find a way to deal with them too and not go to the forums to QQ about them.

And come to think of it, I wouldn't mind if PGI decides to put them in. We are in BETA after all ... Oh, what the heck. Who am I kidding here ...

PGI, please put Magnetic Field Calibrators and Dense Fog Generators in the game.

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Volthorne]

Vlad Ward, on 02 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

lol no. Auto-aim weapons are always handicaps for skilled players who can place shots more effectively than the tracker.

The reason many Aces don't play Lights at the moment is it's a lot easier to put a team's Aces in Assaults and Heavies and put any random dude in the 3L knowing he'll at least do decently.

And there you go assuming that the craven is using Streaks... What if he's using a six-pack or two instead? Then he gets to nullify streaks and can dish out massive doses of pain (I might actually do this just to see how broken it is. Feels like lots. Lots and lots of broken). Skilled 3L still beats skilled Jenner-anything.