75 replies to this topic

[Enig]

I don't feel ECM on a hero mech would be P2W, so long as a base chassis includes that function somewhere (one does), but missile hardpoints are.

We don't know if it has missile slots or not, but this discussion is overarching. I feel that most do not have a problem with hero mechs because they bring something different to the table without bringing something exclusive.

P2W is a very debated topic but I feel a generalization would be: P2W features are defined as giving payed players an advantage that is strictly inaccessible to Free to Play players.


In this case, IF the Cicada X-5 has missile hardpoints while no other variant has missile hardpoints, then that would indeed fall into P2W in my eyes.

This is my opinion and I don't think everyone should believe it but I wanted to voice my stance on the subject.


TLDR? No hero mech should offer a feature exclusive to the hero platform. They're a different flavor, not a whole different meal.

Hero Mech : Standard Variants
Dorito Taco : Standard Taco

[Aethon]

That is not P2W, IMHO. It is, as you say, just a different flavour of Cicada.

Now, if it had missile slots with 6 tubes each, and ECM, and the capability to fit a 400XL powerplant...then I would agree with P2W.

Edited by Aethon, 02 March 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[The Cheese]

Do we know for sure that it has missiles yet, or are we still basing it on the pic?

(I think they're missile points too, based on the picture. Just to be clear)

[Buenaventura]

It's a Cicada, it will have 2 Medium Pulse Lasers and 4 MGs.

[Merky Merc]

If it just has missile hardpoints, it's just a custom cicada. If it has missile hardpoints andddd ECM that's another beast entirely and gets a bit P2W-ish

[PANZERBUNNY]

We can argue about P2W hero mechs all day...

The fact is..we already have some.

A torso mounted AC 20 in that Hero Dragon is an advantage over an arm mounted weapon and we all know it.

Wake up.

They'll walk us slowly and gingerly towards the final goal. Just enjoy the ride.

I doubt we'll see drastically superior machines, but interesting ones, for sure.

If it has ECM and missiles...that's bonkers.

One or the other.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Enig, on 02 March 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

I don't feel ECM on a hero mech would be P2W, so long as a base chassis includes that function somewhere (one does), but missile hardpoints are.

We don't know if it has missile slots or not, but this discussion is overarching. I feel that most do not have a problem with hero mechs because they bring something different to the table without bringing something exclusive.

P2W is a very debated topic but I feel a generalization would be: P2W features are defined as giving payed players an advantage that is strictly inaccessible to Free to Play players.


In this case, IF the Cicada X-5 has missile hardpoints while no other variant has missile hardpoints, then that would indeed fall into P2W in my eyes.

This is my opinion and I don't think everyone should believe it but I wanted to voice my stance on the subject.


TLDR? No hero mech should offer a feature exclusive to the hero platform. They're a different flavor, not a whole different meal.

Hero Mech : Standard Variants
Dorito Taco : Standard Taco

Believe it or not, you're introducing a slippery slope with this point of view. The Wang can equip an AC20 but none of the other Cents can....that's really the same line you're riding here, yet no angst over the Wang?

The ******* things comes out in only a few days. Let's see what it actually has, let it get beat up in matches a few hundred times and see how it really pans out before we start crying P2W perhaps.

[Enig]

Aethon, on 02 March 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

That is not P2W. It is, as you say, just a different flavour of Cicada.

It would be an exclusive weapon category to that variant. That isn't a different flavor, it's a different meal.

Lukoi, on 02 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Believe it or not, you're introducing a slippery slope with this point of view. The Wang can equip an AC20 but none of the other Cents can....that's really the same line you're riding here, yet no angst over the Wang?

The ******* things comes out in only a few days. Let's see what it actually has, let it get beat up in matches a few hundred times and see how it really pans out before we start crying P2W perhaps.

You're right it's a slippery slope, but to make that leap into a separate weapon category altogether is a rather easily distinguishable differentiation. And you're right that it comes out in just a few days, hence my rather polite and reserved tone in the original post.

The Cheese, on 02 March 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Do we know for sure that it has missiles yet, or are we still basing it on the pic?

(I think they're missile points too, based on the picture. Just to be clear)

I have no clue, which is why I'm reluctant to cry wolf. They could very well just be decorative plugs on the front. But the other hero mechs tend to set a precedent in that they do not generally add 'fluff' geometry.

Edited by Enig, 02 March 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Stockholders in major tissue corporations need food on their tables. The P2W whining MUST persist.

[OneEyed Jack]

Your theory is flawed because missiles are not exclusive. If non-paying players were limited to driving Cicada only, you'd have a point. As it is, no.

You are correct in that most people feel that Hero Mechs are not PtW because they don't really offer anything exclusive, but that's only in that they don't offer anything exclusive within the game, not within the Chassis.

Death Knell is the only Commando that can carry 4 Lasers.
YLW is the only Cent that can carry an AC20.
Flame is the only Dragon that has it's ballistic in the torso or energy on both arms. Fang's really got nothin'.
Ilya is the only mech that can carry triple UAC.
Pretty Baby is the only mech that can carry a 400.

It's not that there's nothing exclusive to the chassis, but that the differences aren't exclusive in the game or can at least be approximated on another mech if they're considered advantages at all.

[StalaggtIKE]

I think what you meant was P2E, e=exclusive. Dual 2 tubed missile salvos are not going to be winning any games any time soon.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Enig, on 02 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

It would be an exclusive weapon category to that variant. That isn't a different flavor, it's a different meal.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but frankly I feel you're splitting hairs. It's not going to change the game or be an OP variant simply because it adds some missile bays. Just because you feel the difference in availability is somehow significant, doesn't make it P2W or OP.

Additionally, an AC20 is absolutely a different "meal" from an AC10 due to its sheer effectiveness. Like I said, splitting hairs and hairs that I don't think most people would consider significant enough to label a missile capable Cicada as P2W.

Edited by Lukoi, 02 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Baltasar]

At this moment, with ECM in it's current implementation, I wouldn't want to see it on a Hero mech. Sacrifice such a powerful tool for the cbill boost seeing how no current chasis has the benefit of ECM plus the cbill boost.

[Deathlike]

ECM+Streaks (Raven 3L) is what would change the dynamics of the hero mech (to overbearing whining levels of P2W). If those issues were addressed, then the hero mech would probably be inconsequential.

Although this mech may come with ECM, I figure it would more likely become the medium Jenner equivalent than anything else.

[SuomiWarder]

Yeah but without a Cicada with ESM and missile hard points, what will we kill Raven 3Ls with?

[Kassatsu]

Lukoi, on 02 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Believe it or not, you're introducing a slippery slope with this point of view. The Wang can equip an AC20 but none of the other Cents can....that's really the same line you're riding here, yet no angst over the Wang?

Because the HBK-4G is pretty competitive with the YLW already. Sure, you can put a fairly large XL in the YLW but is it really worth it to be able to die to losing your left torso (and absolutely no weapons/ammo with it)?

Never seen anyone using an AC20 on a Flame, but I doubt it would be any worse than an Ilya running 3 UAC5s compared to any other non-hero cataphract build.

[Yokaiko]

Kassatsu, on 02 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Never seen anyone using an AC20 on a Flame, but I doubt it would be any worse than an Ilya running 3 UAC5s compared to any other non-hero cataphract build.

I do just that.

AC20 + 4 mlass, It runs 89kph with nearly full armor and hits like a whackapult. Its a fun mech and has yielded some of my highest scores.

[xlrdallas]

You people make me laugh, most of you that are having a problem with this having ecm and or missiles , are #1 , raven drivers, or #2 someone enjoying a good game for free, and want everything for free
Now that being said, i dont want this thing to be over powered and the next even cheeser raven 3l, but hell people that dont put money into the game and never will, well who cares what you say, if it was not for people like me and the others that pay for mechs, prem time, colors, cameo, you would not be enjoying your free to play game, they should throw us a bone every once in awhile, and no one is stoping you from buying anything that i buy, but till they fix that mess of a mech the raven with the crap hitbox and the combo of speed and ecm and missiles, any light or med mech is a joke when facing a raven 3l

[BigJim]

OneEyed Jack, on 02 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Your theory is flawed because missiles are not exclusive. If non-paying players were limited to driving Cicada only, you'd have a point. As it is, no.

IDD - People who cry wolf over pay to win always overlook this basic logic.
I made the same point in the other thread.

Missiles and Lasers on a scout? Jenner does it better.
ECM and missiles on a scout? Raven does it better.
Missiles on a Medium? Centy does it better.
Missiles and lasers on a medium? 4SP.
Missiles and lasers on a super-fast medium? Centy-D and/or Trebby does it better.


The hero-cada is basically a slower, fatter, less manoeuvrable Jenner-D, and I'll be getting one because I fu**ing love cicadas, but all the wringing of hands over pay to win gets tiresome, and, if ever we do get a genuinely pay to win mech, people will be less likley to listen because we'll have heard "wolf" too many times.

Edited by BigJim, 02 March 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[HirumaMajere]

One thing i would like to point out based on the picture of the hero mech. Now don't get me wrong, I love piloting cicadas, i feel like they're a ton of fun and would i wish to have one that had lasers, ecm and missles? Yes! would i pay for it? probably? Is it P2W? arguably.

Now we all have heard various arguments for and against why it is or is not P2W.

I just want to point out, its completely possible, that the missles slots we see, is a SINGLE hardpoint that has 4 tubes. So you can't really streak boat it, kinda like some of the jenner variants ( can't remember which one it was that had 1 hardpoint ),

additionally, you'd notice that the 1 ( possibly 2 ) of the laser mounts are on the side shields ( arms ) of the cicada, if you've ever piloted one, you'd know that you cant put much armour on those sides at all. Meaning to say you'd probably lose those shields the moment you get it with anything decent and thus lose possibly 50% of your lasers.

So even if this mech came with ecm ( and i really want it to ), its quite possible to gimp its firepower significantly.

Just saying.