132 replies to this topic

[Cest7]

John MatriX82, on 03 March 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

This. the real problem is how ecm works and why it has been placed on lights with heavy SSRM capability, but the problem wouldn't be that painful if the variants chosen to be ecm-able were those without missile hardpoints.

SSRM+ECM is the issue. The raven 3L is a balanced mech untill its Speed, SSRM and ECM come up against another light/fast mover. There is no contest. Do as much dmg as you can before the streaks tear you a new one or try and run away while the streaks take your rear armor. When you are jammed, there's no help from your team-mates. The SSRM+ECM combo that is seen so much on the Raven 3L is the ultimate hunter killer loadout. This is made possible by the combination of ECM+SRM+Speed+MLA.

[BigJim]

Alistair Winter, on 03 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

While the hitbox probably does need to be fixed, anyone who thinks it will make a big difference needs to play a Raven 2X or 4X and tell me how they perform. Did those hitboxes really save you?.

Lyrik, on 03 March 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Yup, fix the "hitboxes/lagshield" of the Raven 3L (and any other mech who enjoys it) and the raven will be ok. Still a challenge for other lights but at least it will be more killable ;-)

Funny how you can make a point as well as the first guy and then the very next poster comes long as derp-a-derps into exactly the mistake you warned them about.


No, it is *not* the hitboxes.

As described above, take out a 2X or 4X for a few matches in a row, and see how you perform.
No, of course you won't, because deep down you understand the problem, even if you lack the understanding to put it into words.

It's the confluence of Streaks*, and ECM that cause the issues with the Rav 3L.
The triple-streakmmando is just as bad if there are no enemy Ravens on the field of play, it is offensively even more powerful, and it's only natural predator is the Raven.


We can rule out every other single reason that posters have put forward;

1) If the issue were hitboxes & netcode, the Ravens 2x and 4X would be decried as unbalanced.
2) If the issue were ECM, the Cicada 3M would be decried as unbalanced.
3) If the issue were Streaks, the Jenner-D would be decried as unbalanced.

Ergo, it is the combination of ECM and Streaks that is the issue, with the balance of responsibility leaning more toward the Streaks.
Why do i say this?
Because immediately prior to the introduction of ECM, but after the "fix" to Streaks, the Jenner-D did indeed take the position of the all-powerful light that the Raven now inhabits.
No other Light could compete.



* Subnote; Streaks as they are currently implemented - as we should all recall, streaks were not always as they are now - after the were "fixed" (yeah right) they became the all-powerful kings of missile weaponry they are now, but once upon a time, they were a sensible, balanced and welcome addition to the game, rather than the most shitcock-stoopid thing in it.

Edited by BigJim, 03 March 2013 - 04:04 AM.

[Zeroskills]

Streak, LRMs and ECM all need a re balance. Until then though, auto-ban any 4 man that runs 4 of them. An extreme suggestion I admit, but it would make my giggle.

[SgtMagor]

Gaan Cathal, on 03 March 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Excessive warping of that sort is typically associated with one of three things:

- A Cryengine2 issue that has apparently been solved, this was the netcode fix of a few patches back
- Very high ping on the part of the other player: this was linked to the above, and the unscrupulous were artificially lagging themselves and using homing weapons to 'activate' the lagshield glitch, this still works to a degree, but not like it used to
- Very high ping or connection/client issues your end

Given that your game actually freezes, and the severity of lag-damage to yourself leads me to think that in your case it is largely number 3. What sort of ping do you generally run, and what kind of framerates do you get? Additionally, have you been suffering the 'freezes and must kill the process' crash? I've had that a few times and it's been associated with sudden freezes of a second or two.

i.m usually around a 26 ping, and most peeps have at least 4x or more higher ping than me...and this only happens when I encounter lights mostly Ravens on a map. so there has to be something else the DEVs are missing. since you mentioned it artificial lagging, if iirc in Mw4 there was a patch to disable some keys so you couldn't spam your lag!

Edited by SgtMagor, 03 March 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

SgtMagor, on 03 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

i.m usually around a 26 ping, and most peeps have at least 4x or more higher ping than me...

100-150 is fairly typical for Euro (or other end of NA with terrible connection) ping. Certainly not high enough to have triggered the Cryengine issue. I'm thinking it's likely a driver issue or something similar at your end, or a CPU/GPU bottleneck if those aren't very good. What're you playing on if I might ask?

[loliza]

Calimaw, on 03 March 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

What is the disadvantage of a 3L?

there is only advantages yday on my splatcat i had a raven 3l in my sights i aplhaed it first from 160 m ofc big spread on the 90 dmg i think maybe 30-50% of the alpha hit while i have srm6x6 on cd i move in closer for the kill and get to shoot this raven from 30 m with him being in the center of the reticule(or w/e) full aplha 90 dmg from 30 m on a stationary raven he dropped to 90% hp and started running took circles and killed me NOW DONT SAY RAVEN ISNT BROKEN i wish i had the fraps mov to prove it will try to get a lip weiht fraps of this insane dmg soak ravens have

Edited by loliza, 03 March 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[WildeKarde]

SSRM's do need a bit of work done to them. They are meant to be more expensive per missile as a balance but since we don't have any costs then that doesn't apply. Should it maybe be considered they have a smaller warhead so less damage as the missile included the guidance systems for the missile. Maybe drop 20% from the damage as a starter.

When added to ECM they become a game changer - I've seen a raven turn a battle by themselves against bigger mechs and stand toe to toe with them coming out on top, even with two mechs working together against the raven. That shouldn't be the case for balance of the game.

Personally I think if you use a targetting system while under ECM bubble then it negates your ECM cover. You can still shoot without targetting however. It would reduce the streaks issue.

Any mech that can combine speed, streaks and lasers together is an issue - add hitbox and lag and it becomes a lot more overpowered.

Edited by Jake Hendricks, 03 March 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Alistair Winter, on 03 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

While the hitbox probably does need to be fixed, anyone who thinks it will make a big difference needs to play a Raven 2X or 4X and tell me how they perform. Did those hitboxes really save you?

correct... at least up to this part... the rest (about weapons that split their amazingly high 5 damage points into2X2.5) is a dead horse idon´t wanna reanimate..)

NOONE had a problem with the hitboxes of ravens before ECM got introduced and finally gave pilots a reason to take a raven... IFthe hitboxes are so bad, why is it especially the 3L that people complain about? to me they are okay, it makes nearly no difference if i shoot a raven or a jenner, although the different shape might make the raven a bit more slender... but that´s not an issue for me, it´s just TRUE...

IF the ravens hitboxes are so broken, making that mech so unstoppable that all the elite pilots in this forum are crying about it.. why is it that my own raven, and the ravens in enemy teams die like flies countless times lately? from almost every weapon i can think of?

there is only one problem, one unfair thing about the raven 3L: a 1 on 1 duel against a jenner is a 90% win for the 3L...but any jenner pilot should know that by now and get himself some backup before engaging...

[SgtMagor]

Gaan Cathal, on 03 March 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

100-150 is fairly typical for Euro (or other end of NA with terrible connection) ping. Certainly not high enough to have triggered the Cryengine issue. I'm thinking it's likely a driver issue or something similar at your end, or a CPU/GPU bottleneck if those aren't very good. What're you playing on if I might ask?

laptop
quad I 720 cpu
mobile gpu 5870m 1 gig ddr5 vram
6gigs ddr3 mem
hybrid hdd
8 gig flash drive -windows mem powerboost
wnda3100v2 wifi adapter connecting about 144mbs

[Jestun]

Calimaw, on 03 March 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

What is the disadvantage of a 3L?

Compared to what?

[loliza]

SgtMagor, on 03 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

laptop
quad I 720 cpu
mobile gpu 5870m 1 gig ddr5 vram
6gigs ddr3 mem
hybrid hdd
8 gig flash drive -windows mem powerboost
wnda3100v2 wifi adapter connecting about 144mbs

and yet its a laptop

[sizz0r]

just go pilot some non ecm/streak commando or spider and you will see every greedy enemy light mech with streaks going straight forward to kill you... there is no difference then if it is a raven or a jenner, little com or spidy will die :-/

sure, for the 3L it's the combination of its weapons and abilities but i think the main problem are the ssrm's.

light mechs get killed in seconds and the dmg to the heavier mechs is not accurate but still very high.
super easy to get 600+++ dmg without any aiming.

lock on and lock on time when the target isnt visible are easy mode - i say you just need 10% of the aiming you would need to do damage with laser weapons against enemy lights.

i hope PGI will do something about that.

[Jestun]

sizz0r, on 03 March 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

just go pilot some non ecm/streak commando or spider and you will see every greedy enemy light mech with streaks going straight forward to kill you... there is no difference then if it is a raven or a jenner, little com or spidy will die :-/

sure, for the 3L it's the combination of its weapons and abilities but i think the main problem are the ssrm's.

light mechs get killed in seconds and the dmg to the heavier mechs is not accurate but still very high.
super easy to get 600+++ dmg without any aiming.

lock on and lock on time when the target isnt visible are easy mode - i say you just need 10% of the aiming you would need to do damage with laser weapons against enemy lights.

i hope PGI will do something about that.

Actually, the difference is retaining the lock after firing.

Lasers you do the following:

1. aim
2. click
3. maintain aim while laser fires

SSRM you do this:

1. aim
2. maintain aim while it locks
3. click

If SSRMs had to lock each time then they would have to maintain aim just like a laser, but before clicking instead of after clicking.

[John MatriX82]

Cest7, on 03 March 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

SSRM+ECM is the issue. The raven 3L is a balanced mech untill its Speed, SSRM and ECM come up against another light/fast mover. There is no contest. Do as much dmg as you can before the streaks tear you a new one or try and run away while the streaks take your rear armor. When you are jammed, there's no help from your team-mates. The SSRM+ECM combo that is seen so much on the Raven 3L is the ultimate hunter killer loadout. This is made possible by the combination of ECM+SRM+Speed+MLA.

Yes. I have an expert friend (pro-gaming grade player) that has decided to exp the Jenners.. the once hatred and feared jenner. He's having a tremendous hard time, since any Raven 3L can dominate him no matter what is the loadout chosen, speed isn't a defense either.

That's the same pain I had to live when exping my Cicadas, even the 3M that has ECM capability can't do much against other Ravens, they simply tear you down blow after blow of those damn SSRMs.

Jestun, on 03 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

If SSRMs had to lock each time then they would have to maintain aim just like a laser, but before clicking instead of after clicking.

Streaks must:
a) lose or be unable to track any target with impossible angles like it is now.
2 ) lose lock after each shot so that lock-on must be re-acquired every time. No more chain firing them with multiple launchers by this.
c) get also a damage nerf, since they are tracking warheads (screw TT) they should have a reduced payload when compared with dumbfire SRM2s.

Regarding a) thanks to 360 target retention module+target decay, you are virtually able to keep tracking and hitting enemy mechs even from impossible angles.


After this, ECM should be changed so that there's no more distrupt/counter mode (only working as distrupt) and by making ecm-bearing targets within a certain range from enemy mechs to be not only target-able but lock-able.

I don't care about ECM suites in 3050 are from TT; if I physically see a target from 0 to 200m from me I must have passive or IR/heat tracking sensor that MUST allow me to lock on any target and relay its info to all of my team mates.
This way ECM would stand as an alternative to AMS for long to medium ranges and a tool to slip through enemy lines undetected or un-lockable by enemy fire. Get too close to any enemy, you're spotted, lock-on aspect times are slower and you lose the ECM'd target fast once you miss the LoS. By this also non-ecm equipped lights could counter with their streaks and ECM lights would fit best as scouts and electronic warfare platforms, rather than strikers/harassers, a role that should be kept by Jenners.. Of all the lights/fast mechs you see from months I can account 60% Raven 3Ls, 10-15 Cicadas 3Ms, Com 2Ds.

Bring sensor range modules and this spotting range increases, bring a BAP and lock-on aspect time gets better.

Finally, targeting and map disturbances should go away; as it is ECM now, pug or non-expert players simply lose the already bad situational awareness they have got and your lines get screwed since they totally miss where friendly players are.

The "normal", non ECM-capable light variants are seen as a "oh dear i painfully need to exp these sucking variants to elite my _________" (place here) Raven 3L, Com-2D or Cicada 3M.

While you can still do good with non-ecm variants, most of the times it's just luck or in the other team you don't have any 3L or 2D vs you.

Edited by John MatriX82, 03 March 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Cest7]

If they JR7-D got ECM as initially planned, there would be more complaints about the JR7-D than the RVN-3L

[Asmosis]

Calimaw, on 03 March 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

What is the disadvantage of a 3L?

They die in a single well placed srm volley, like any other light mech. With the upcoming netcode fixes, will hopefully be able to do that with a bit more consistency. It helps that they like to circle at 30-80m for some reason too.

The problem is light mechs are too hard to hit in the current setup. the 3L didnt magically get three times its firepower overnight, its still as easy to kill as it was pre-ECM (which is HARD like any other non-commando light).

Edited by Asmosis, 03 March 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[ObsidianSpectre]

Alistair Winter, on 03 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Anyone who thinks Streaks are fine and ECM is the problem, try playing some games with the Raven 3L without streaks, and tell me how that went. You had speed, hitbox and ECM. Did you still wreak havoc? Or did you perhaps get eaten by other mechs with Streaks?

I think a big reason you don't see SRMs instead of SSRMs in ravens is that one missile tube in the left arm. If I could fire all my missiles with a single click of the button and no delay, I'd absolutely be running regular SRMs instead. My JR7-D has won more duels against 3Ls than it's lost, and outdamages my Raven most matches. If I could trade a laser hardpoint for ECM on it, I'd absolutely do it and keep mounting SRM-4s.

[Joseph Mallan]

There is a simple client side fix for the Raven.
1) Don't use ECM
2) Don't use Streaks.

The problem is many players are using the 3L cause they think it will magically make them a better player. It won't.

I have a 3L, I have ECM and SRM4s. I like it!

Don't much care for Streaks they do paper cut damage on Mechs with double standard armor.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 March 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Jestun]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

There is a simple client side fix for the Raven.
1) Don't use ECM
2) Don't use Streaks.

The problem is many players are using the 3L cause they think it will magically make them a better player. It won't.

I have a 3L, I have ECM and SRM4s. I like it!

Don't much care for Streaks they do paper cut damage on Mechs with double standard armor.

Many people are using 3L's because a good dev team doesn't balance on whines, they balance on data.

Many people using (and doing well with) 3L's skews the data and highlights the problem even more.

Which means PGI see more than whines, they see data proving how good it is.

[sizz0r]

Jestun, on 03 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Actually, the difference is retaining the lock after firing.

Lasers you do the following:

1. aim
2. click
3. maintain aim while laser fires

SSRM you do this:

1. aim
2. maintain aim while it locks
3. click

If SSRMs had to lock each time then they would have to maintain aim just like a laser, but before clicking instead of after clicking.

that would be truly a start for fixing this weapon, maybe still easy to lock but at least a little bit more to do for the streak user and more chances for the one without to get away. this compared with a small dmg reduce ... ;-)

for the ones who dont know why i am crying - just as i said go pick a com-1b for example and play a few matches :->