132 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

And they won't change anything, that they already didn't plan to change.

GaussCat were once all the rage. Couldn't drop without seeing 3 per team. PGI Did nothing to Nerf them. You don't see them very often any more.

[Paul McKenzie]

I wish these super over-powered ravens would show themselves to me... I've literally never been picked apart by a raven. 2 commandos at once yes, ravens not ever, I've chased every single on of them off or just blown them apart. May I suggest you play better?

[Jestun]

When I see people defending the current state of 3L's, all I can think is "He pilots one".

[sizz0r]

Paul McKenzie, on 03 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I wish these super over-powered ravens would show themselves to me... I've literally never been picked apart by a raven. 2 commandos at once yes, ravens not ever, I've chased every single on of them off or just blown them apart. May I suggest you play better?

sure bad boy, my quad large laser k2 also has no trouble with them but pick some other (light) mechs and you will know what we are talking about

[Joseph Mallan]

Jestun, on 03 March 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

When I see people defending the current state of 3L's, all I can think is "He pilots one".

Yes. With SRM4s.

[Gaan Cathal]

sizz0r, on 03 March 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

sure bad boy, my quad large laser k2 also has no trouble with them but pick some other (light) mechs and you will know what we are talking about

Eugh. I hate those, once in a while I'll run into them with an LRM target locked only to find out the bloody thing isn't one of those dual-AC/20 coffins. It's never a nice surprise.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Yes. With SRM4s.

How does it compare with a single 6-pack for you? I'm running mine like that at the moment (with ArtIV) because I feel lose too many rounds to the Narc-tube effect.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 03 March 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

How does it compare with a single 6-pack for you? I'm running mine like that at the moment (with ArtIV) because I feel lose too many rounds to the Narc-tube effect.

I like it. I am thinking of switching to 6s & Large Laser for a test.

[BigJim]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

GaussCat were once all the rage. Couldn't drop without seeing 3 per team. PGI Did nothing to Nerf them. You don't see them very often any more.

Incorrect mate - The exploding gauss makes them a deathtrap.

They need an XL engine in order do move quickly, to pop in & out of cover & snipe like they used to, and in order to torso-twist quickly, so they can brawl like they used to.
They need an XL engine in order to do all this, but that same XL engine now makes them very, very vulnerable to dying when the Gauss inevitably gets critted.

The only way around this is to take a STD engine, so small that you're lucky to move at atlas speeds, and that reduces your torso-turn speed down so that you can't fight close-up like you once used to..
That's why you don't see them very much.

Before DHS, the only option for good sniping was the Gauss, but now with apx 10x doubles per engine, you can viably put out decent long-range DPS with other weapons as well, making Gauss just one of several options.

In addition, the inclusion of Double heatsinks a while ago made the 20-cat from a funny experiment into a viable option, and the buff to PPCs has made PPC-cats viable again (often with a mix of Gauss & AC20.

Finally, the Phract provided a platform that can all the same things, but with more room to spare, and (now they've been tweaked) with jumpjets to boot - ergo - less Gausscats.



So no, quite a lot of action was taken to bring the K2 gausscat to where it is now - not all of it was intentionally aimed at the Gausscat for sure, but the point remains that action was taken, and the consequences are as we see them now.

The drop in gausscat numbers isn't just some random act of god, it all stems from specific design decisions made by the Dev team, you just need to follow the chain of logic.
..And it's not like double-gauss builds are rare, I see a double-guass Phract most matches nowadays, so they've just moved from one chassis to another.

Edited by BigJim, 03 March 2013 - 06:08 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

There is a simple client side fix for the Raven.
1) Don't use ECM
2) Don't use Streaks.
The problem is many players are using the 3L cause they think it will magically make them a better player. It won't.
I have a 3L, I have ECM and SRM4s. I like it!
Don't much care for Streaks they do paper cut damage on Mechs with double standard armor.

Well, first of all, the last statement in this post is obviously ridiculous. I won't even explain, I'm just pointing it out.
Second of all, if a game depends on the player to act responsibly to make the game enjoyable, and fails to reward good behavior, the game design is flawed. If PGI introduces a Clan UAC20 which is so OP that it makes all other weapons obsolete, then you can hardly blame the players for using it.
Third, while I am sure there are Raven 3L pilots who refuse to use streaks and can do quite well with SRMs (I fancy myself belonging to this group, although I never outshoot Raven 3Ls with streaks) such testimonies are not very constructive unless it adresses the majority of players. Whenever someone is complaining about a weapon or a mech, there's always some pro player coming to its defence, saying "Well, here's a screenshot of the time I killed 8 mechs and did 1000 damage with only 4 MGs and a Flamer. Just learn to play, guys". So cool story bro, but unfortunately it doesn't apply to the majority of people playing this game.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

And they won't change anything, that they already didn't plan to change.
GaussCat were once all the rage. Couldn't drop without seeing 3 per team. PGI Did nothing to Nerf them. You don't see them very often any more.

Didn't they make gauss rifles more fragile and prone to explosions?

[Joseph Mallan]

BigJim, on 03 March 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Incorrect mate - The exploding gauss makes them a deathtrap.

I'll just stop you right there. Gauss was always supposed to explode. I carry one in my Atlas still, I even carry it with an XL engine. I have more kills than deaths like this too. I still see GaussCats, just not everyone is using them. Only the really good/skilled player(for instance not me).

[Hekalite]

I can't think of any time when a specific type of mech has been nerfed directly. People call for nerfs all the time, but so far everything has been adjusted with weapon balance. The only "nerf" incomming for the 3L in the near term is state rewind and possibly some associated hitbox fixes.

[Gaan Cathal]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

I'll just stop you right there. Gauss was always supposed to explode. I carry one in my Atlas still, I even carry it with an XL engine. I have more kills than deaths like this too. I still see GaussCats, just not everyone is using them. Only the really good/skilled player(for instance not me).

By the 'gauss was always supposed to explode' logic;

1) Gauss should have a minimum range
2) SSRM shouldn't seek at all. "Doesn't fire if it'll miss" =/= "Automatically hits"

[BigJim]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 March 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

I'll just stop you right there. Gauss was always supposed to explode. I carry one in my Atlas still, I even carry it with an XL engine. I have more kills than deaths like this too. I still see GaussCats, just not everyone is using them. Only the really good/skilled player(for instance not me).

I'm sure you do matie, and I'm sure that in the background, Gauss always did explode, but that matters little to the discussion here - the thread is about the Raven (by which we all know we mean the 3L with ECM and Streaks).


In the course of the discussion, you made the fair comment that once, the K2 gausscat was very popular (and unsaid, but I know what you mean) that it gained a lot of undue criticism.

However, the conclusion, that because Gausscat numbers dwindled "naturally" then that the Raven numbers will likley dwindle I believe, is a non-sequiter.

1) The gausscat didn't dwindle naturally, it as due to specific changes in the design of the game, and that

2) It matters not if it were a Raven, a Jenner-D (before ECM got pulled), or the new Hero-Cada (if it had ECM which it won't), the combination of ECM and Streaks (as they work now) is simply unbeatable among lights, such that any other scout build is a joke, just a bad joke that has no place outside the most casual of casual pug drops).
Just like the Gausscat now becoming the Gaussphract, the actual chassis doesn't matter - it's the build that hurts.

Now I'm not against Gausscas or Phracts or anything, they're just another option, but I dislike the Streak/ECm combo because nothing else can even begin to compete.
If you're a scout and not in a Raven 3L you're better off discoing before the match begins.

I sincerely wish this wasn't the case, and I've spent nearly 4000 matches since Open beta began trying to disprove this, but sadly, it's just a fact.
The odd anecdote about some guy who got a few kills with SRMs are just that - an odd anecdote.

Edited by BigJim, 03 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[Sears]

Mechs will get nerf'd and buffed with these quirks that are getting released. The Awesome had some tuning to it with the release of the pretty baby. Bigger engines but less torso twist speed or somesuch.

If the state rewind is as good as we hope it will make hitting ECM lights with non ECM laser boat lights doable. So expect to see the Jenner F legging ravens to allow the big guns to knock it out. That's how i'd go about it.

[Glythe]

Nerf it.... nerf it with fire!

Just break the hitbox like you did for the Jenner. Do not split any hitboxes with weird magic tricks.


The difference between the Raven and the Commando is that one has a completely OP hitbox and the other could not be more separated (and fair).


ECM with this functionality is completely OP at 1.5 tons but that's another story.

[BigJim]

Sears, on 03 March 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Mechs will get nerf'd and buffed with these quirks that are getting released. The Awesome had some tuning to it with the release of the pretty baby. Bigger engines but less torso twist speed or somesuch.

Tbh it doesn't matter if the Raven is tweaked so that it turns as slowly as an atlas - as long as Streaks fire out of your armpit, back or head, you'll still out-DPS any other Light in the game.

Might make it a bit more awkward, but it won't change the hierarchy to any significant degree.

Edited by BigJim, 03 March 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 03 March 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

Well, first of all, the last statement in this post is obviously ridiculous. I won't even explain, I'm just pointing it out.
Second of all, if a game depends on the player to act responsibly to make the game enjoyable, and fails to reward good behavior, the game design is flawed. If PGI introduces a Clan UAC20 which is so OP that it makes all other weapons obsolete, then you can hardly blame the players for using it.
Third, while I am sure there are Raven 3L pilots who refuse to use streaks and can do quite well with SRMs (I fancy myself belonging to this group, although I never outshoot Raven 3Ls with streaks) such testimonies are not very constructive unless it adresses the majority of players. Whenever someone is complaining about a weapon or a mech, there's always some pro player coming to its defence, saying "Well, here's a screenshot of the time I killed 8 mechs and did 1000 damage with only 4 MGs and a Flamer. Just learn to play, guys". So cool story bro, but unfortunately it doesn't apply to the majority of people playing this game.

Sorry you feel that way man. I got all my experience we have now. TT and previous WM titles had less protection and were fun. Oh I don't actually blame them for using what works as intended one bit. I also don't whine when those players kill me. My fault for not shooting straighter, faster, better than them. Its a combat game the better combatant/build won the day. One Raven-3L killing a Mech cool, Four in a murder Circle, Though demoralizing is still cool. Before the 3L hit it was all about Nerfing the Jenners! What ever build is killing masses is called out as OP. Team work is OP, Comms is OP, Streaks are OP. Non of these are OP unless your enemy is using them better than you are. I kill 3Ls, I use TS3, I don't worry about Streaks. They do 5 damage each launcher, That's a Medium laser. A 3L has 2 SSRMs that's 10 damage, or death by paper cuts. Unless you are on the receiving end. But if you are close to your team, you have up to 7 times the firepower and angles of attack as the Raven.

Quote

Didn't they make gauss rifles more fragile and prone to explosions?

Yes they did. but they stopped short of making it properly Nerfed. A Gauss took one hit... one then it blew up! Didn't have hit points. Heck the MMO Gauss is way more robust than my decades of experience using one.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gaan Cathal, on 03 March 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

By the 'gauss was always supposed to explode' logic;

1) Gauss should have a minimum range
2) SSRM shouldn't seek at all. "Doesn't fire if it'll miss" =/= "Automatically hits"

Doesn't fire less you pull the trigger. Could use relock after firing, but that isn't a lot of time added. And Gauss should never have had Minimums. It was a small Nerf (90M). But if they put it back I would be fine with it, as long as all Ballistics got their Mins back.

Streaks could only be fires with Target lock, target lock is effective till LoS is Broken, I have seen SSRMs hit buildings instead of the target... They never did that on TT!

[Psikez]

I wanted deep fried turkey...

[Coolant]

it's a problem because it's a brawler now...a 35 ton mech...a brawler. And, it takes way too much punishment for a 35 ton mech. I would say the Commando with ECM is also a problem, but they seem much easier to kill which makes sense since it's even lighter. But, how can a 35 ton mech that is only going 65 ish run thru a team of assaults and live to tell about it? Seen it over and over...

Edited by Coolant, 03 March 2013 - 07:39 AM.