117 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

I say that EITHER:

• 1.5 tons should be as useful as 1.5 tons, especially since BAP and ECM cost the same number of C-Bills, too

OR

• if one of the 1.5 ton options is "better" than the others, then all Mechs should have equal access to it.

The reason I say this is because if only a few Mechs have access to the "best" 1.5 ton piece of equipment, then those mechs are technically better than the game's other Mechs.


It's like... would you rather play with Mario or Luigi if Mario was allowed to use Mushrooms and FireFlowers, while Luigi is not allowed to use Fireflowers (with no form of "boost" to compensate for the loss of Fireflower ability). The obvious answer is you would take Mario because Mario is flat-out better than Luigi..

Good post, but C-Bill are worthless and therefore no good thing to balance things imo.


Tons, Slots, Heat, that is what really matters.

Edited by WolvesX, 03 March 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 03 March 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

And maybe it's time to replace your sig. Just saying.

Maybe it's time to explain my signature to those who do do not have the brainpower to figure out what it means.

Adapt or cry means: Adapt to a play style.

If you don't like getting ****ed up by missiles!? Use Cover.
You don't like getting splatted by a splatcat? Stay out of range.
You don't like getting Headshotted? Don't stop moving.
You don't like getting sniped? Don't stand still in the open, or use cover.

THOSE are adaptations.

You don't like ECM? (Something someone just mounted on their mech and forgot about.)
Which translates to one or both of two:
You don't like not being able to lock on to someone to use your weapon? Use a different weapon- OR devote all of your attention to training a laser beam onto them to negate that 1.5 ton piece of equipment they forgot about.

You don't like being able to lock onto anything to shoot your weapon? Get your own ECM.

That is not adapting to a play style, that is changing an entire game based on a single (non-existent) piece of equipment that they may, or may not remember that they have.. because they make it do nothing, it does it all by itself.


Missiles are an example of a play-style that have their own advantages AND DISADVANTAGES to exploit. You adapt to them. One does not "Adapt" their play-style to ECM, their play-style revolves around it.

Now, could you quit misusing my signature like the other boneheads?

Edited by Livewyr, 03 March 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Teralitha]

Byk, on 03 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

The definition OP gives for what an ECM should do is the best one I've seen yet.

There have been better suggestions, but this one isnt bad.

[WolvesX]

Teralitha, on 03 March 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

There have been better suggestions, but this one isnt bad.

Link a better one.

[hammerreborn]

Prosperity Park, on 03 March 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

My Mario/Luigi thing was meant to mimic the hypothetical situation of choosing a Mech that can or can't mount ECM... so, that's why I didn't say "fix Mario," it was meant to represent what users currently face in the Mechlab among Light Mechs.

And AMS does more now than it did in TT, I think... any friendly AMS will shoot at any hostile missile that's inside the AMS's range envelope, even if those missiles are going to someone else, or even dumbfire and pointed out into the distance... if a Jenner with AMS sneaks up behind enemy Missile Support, then the Jenner's AMS will shoot down a ton of those missiles that are being trained on the Jenner's allies half a kilo away.

I just wish that ECM wasn't as either OP/ton, or so restricted in deployment options. It makes me think that the non-ECM Mechs are second-class Mechs.

Either making ECM less effective/ton, or expanding its availability would greatly please me.

Except in this particular argument, which is completely misstated because Luigi has VARIOUS boosts to compensate for the loss of the Fireflower ability. For instance, if Luigi is a spider or jenner Luigi can basically fly (hey just like in Super Mario 2, where each character had various bonuses), if Luigi is a commando he can fire more streaks, if Luigi is any of the various medium or heavy mechs he has more armor and better weapons.
So yea, this analogy completely fails to make sense, if we're arguing anything other than a ECM 3L vs a non-ECM 3L. Hell, it the 3L vs 3L case it also doesn't even make sense in that case because now we're arguing a 35 ton raven vs a 33.5 ton raven, which, in a more perfect netcode world, would allow the non-ecm raven to mount either a bigger engine (when weight limits are removed), add another ton of streak/srm ammo and a case to protect the valuable side torsos, switching the weapons to something slightly heavier (like a medium pulse instead of a medium), adding more armor, adding AMS, BAP, more easily add a command console if it ever decides to do anything, or a million other things you can do other than putting an ECM in that slot, all of which give various bonuses.

So your analogy sucks.

[Rivqua]

They are actually all very bad, as they don't consider the core problem, ECM was included in the game to force team play. ECM is not a weapon negate item, all weapons work with ECM, LRMS work very well, SSRM are a tad hurt, but A1s with 6 SSRM wasn't a real build anyway. The reason ECM was included, was to force team play, because you couldn't zombie towards a red dot, you had to talk to your team, to have scouts report enemy positions. And that has to be kept part of the game.

[Doc Holliday]

Rivqua, on 03 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

They are actually all very bad, as they don't consider the core problem, ECM was included in the game to force team play. ECM is not a weapon negate item, all weapons work with ECM, LRMS work very well, SSRM are a tad hurt, but A1s with 6 SSRM wasn't a real build anyway. The reason ECM was included, was to force team play, because you couldn't zombie towards a red dot, you had to talk to your team, to have scouts report enemy positions. And that has to be kept part of the game.

First, you're missing the link to the devs stating that.

Second, you don't need something ******** like broken ECM to force teamwork. In fact, you can't force teamwork. MWO has always required teamwork to be successful. ECM did nothing to alter that.

[hammerreborn]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

First, you're missing the link to the devs stating that.

Second, you don't need something ******** like broken ECM to force teamwork. In fact, you can't force teamwork. MWO has always required teamwork to be successful. ECM did nothing to alter that.

http://mwomercs.com/...dpost__p__75439

Quote

Disruption/Spoofing

With such an emphasis on detection and tracking, we also needed a counter balance, something that players could equip. Using the module system, we allow players to equip Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) devices in the form of:

• Spoofers – Beacons that send out a false target signatures.
  
• Disruptors – Disrupt or block modes, communication, target acquisition and locks.
  
• Surveillance – Allows a player to intercept and decode enemy intel.

[WolvesX]

I really hope that PGI fixes ECM next patch.

[Doc Holliday]

WolvesX, on 03 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

I really hope that PGI fixes ECM next patch.

Yeah, me too. I'd really like to be able to enjoy the game again.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 03 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

... Now, could you quit misusing my signature like the other boneheads?

I am not misusing it as such. I am taking it to the next step: adapt to the situation at hand.

And with that I close with a quote from Erwin Rommel:

"Mortal danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas."

[Undead Bane]

The worst part about ECM is that before it came out, my favourite Atlas variant was RS. And we could see plenty of other variants around the battlefield, even K variants.
Now bringing an Atlas, that is not (F!) D-DC looks like you just try to spoil your team's game. And this is so sad.

Also, before we (if playing a 4-man) could choose, if we want to lower the chance of having ECM in the game by simply chosing 4 heavies. Now ELO matchmaker does not allow that as well.

I so hope this thing gets addressed eventually...

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Oh look!

Its today's "Cleverly Disguised I hate ECM" thread.

If after all of the tweaking that has been done, you STILL can't deal with it...nevermind...you aren't worth it.

[Someone2000]

I love that everyone here is arguing over ECM being OP or not, and I'm out playing MechWarrior Online with a non-ecm light mech getting lots of kills and having fun.

[Undead Bane]

Someone2000, on 03 March 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I love that everyone here is arguing over ECM being OP or not, and I'm out playing MechWarrior Online with a non-ecm light mech getting lots of kills and having fun.

I'm glad that you have fun. I also have it - I play a poptart, which obviosly does not have ECM. Still, the fact that ONE piece of equipment is so style-changing is a bad one. And has nothing to do with you having fun or not.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Someone2000, on 03 March 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I love that everyone here is arguing over ECM being OP or not, and I'm out playing MechWarrior Online with a non-ecm light mech getting lots of kills and having fun.

Well except for when you came here, read the thread, and then replied. Must have interrupted your non-ecm kill spree for a few moments at least.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well, once again, if ECM is fine and not broken and people just need to 'learn to play', why is it only available for select chassis? Every other piece of equipement or weapon is available to all mechs, wether DHS, Artemis, BAP, Streaks.... you get the point. If you have the space and free tonnage (and possible a weapon hardpoint) you can carry it. Except for ECM. That gets limited to just a small portion of all mechs available. If it is fine as is, does not negatively effect the game balance, and people can just 'adapt and learn to counter it' then why not make it generally available. I definetely wouldn't have a problem with ECM if I could mount it on any of my mechs, why should it be the golden egg that a blessed few can partake of.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 03 March 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

I am not misusing it as such. I am taking it to the next step: adapt to the situation at hand.

And with that I close with a quote from Erwin Rommel:

"Mortal danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas."

You're still failing to understand: Adapt to a style of play. (one that has weaknesses and advantages to avoid and exploit) not Adapt to a piece of miracle gear.

Following your 'adaptation' of my signature.. PGI could put a Baneblade in the game and it would be cool.

[Joker Two]

Voted "Yes!", but the real answer should be "sort of?"

Give the ECM 50% (heck, even 65% or so) reduced targeting distance against friendlies inside the bubble, and maybe deny armor readouts altogether unless the other guy has a BAP (or has a friend with a BAP) or is within ~90m. The fact that the targeting distance modifier so conveniently sits right on the radius of the bubble and the minimum range for LRMs is what causes such a problem.

BAP should be buffed, the biggest priority I think should be to detect enemies' active ECM fields and BAPs (therefore also give an "off" setting to ECM and BAP users)

AMS could stand to be a little more effective, particularly against standard SRMs

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Tincan Nightmare, on 03 March 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well, once again, if ECM is fine and not broken and people just need to 'learn to play', why is it only available for select chassis?

Because they gave it to specific chassis for specific reasons? You didn't see the ECM chassis before ECM, anyone remember the Raven hordes before ECM? No of course not, it was all Jenners...which still have a better weapons hardpoints.

Quote

Every other piece of equipement or weapon is available to all mechs,

Go ahead and fit Jump Jets on your Atlas!
Fit Ballistics on your Stalker!
Put Missiles in your Spider!
Put a 300 rated engine in a Hunchback!

Its all available, right?