117 replies to this topic

[Dudeman3k]

Gregory Owen, on 03 March 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

QQ

lol this guy likes his own post that reads "QQ"... hahahahahaha who likes their own post?? hahahaha l;ololol

[hammerreborn]

Tincan Nightmare, on 03 March 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well, once again, if ECM is fine and not broken and people just need to 'learn to play', why is it only available for select chassis? Every other piece of equipement or weapon is available to all mechs, wether DHS, Artemis, BAP, Streaks.... you get the point. If you have the space and free tonnage (and possible a weapon hardpoint) you can carry it. Except for ECM. That gets limited to just a small portion of all mechs available. If it is fine as is, does not negatively effect the game balance, and people can just 'adapt and learn to counter it' then why not make it generally available. I definetely wouldn't have a problem with ECM if I could mount it on any of my mechs, why should it be the golden egg that a blessed few can partake of.

Because just like JJs the devs are sticking to at least some canon for their equipment systems (like that one atlas that has double ams). And Artemis and streaks are completely dependent on hard points...so I'm not sure why you mentioned those.

You could say the same thing about module slots, which are varied per variant.

ECM, JJs, and modules are all ways to make certain mechs unique and offer unique advantages and disadvantages so the game doesn't become the same mechs with different looks.

[Shismar]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not until PGI fixes ECM.

They won't so what now?

[Tincan Nightmare]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 03 March 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Because they gave it to specific chassis for specific reasons? You didn't see the ECM chassis before ECM, anyone remember the Raven hordes before ECM? No of course not, it was all Jenners...which still have a better weapons hardpoints.


Go ahead and fit Jump Jets on your Atlas!
Fit Ballistics on your Stalker!
Put Missiles in your Spider!
Put a 300 rated engine in a Hunchback!

Its all available, right?

What was that specific reason, to make it better than other chassis? So Jenners were to prevalent so give a Raven variant ECM so it replaces it. How does that make ECM not too powerful. And yes, not all mechs can mount JJ's, you got me there, and yes you can't get a Hunch to move like a light. And if they made a Stalker variant that had a ballistic hardpoint or a Spider with a missile hardpoint, yes you could. However don't try to play word games and say that ECM is not exclusive above all other items. BAP is an electronic warfare unit that weighs the same and takes the same crit space, and every single mech can mount it. Why then is ECM limited to just a few? Because its so bad. Or because its so good that it would be carried by every single mech if it was generally available.

[Headlessnewt]

I voted No, and I'm going to tell you why.

Because balance doesn't mean equality, and because there's hardpoint issues to consider. An AMS hardpoint is 'cheaper' than, say, a Missile Hardpoint. The relative value of a hardpoint varies with weight class, as well, a Ballistic hardpoint on a Light is much less useful than one on a Heavy, for instance.

We also (despite the fact that none of the mechs have one listed in their descriptions) have ECM hardpoints, which are currently among the most valuable hardpoints in the game.

Trying to claim equality based on only two of the factors of a piece of equipment isn't the way to go about balancing something, and you can't make an apple equal to an orange in any case.

I think ECM is too good and BAP and Narc aren't good enough (AMS is fine against LRMs and needs a buff against SRMs), but trying to make them all 'equal' isn't going to work unless you're going to remove hardpoint restrictions.

[Doc Holliday]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 03 March 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Go ahead and fit Jump Jets on your Atlas!
Fit Ballistics on your Stalker!
Put Missiles in your Spider!
Put a 300 rated engine in a Hunchback!

Its all available, right?

Most players using mechs that can fit JJ actually don't. This is because JJ are, if anything, somewhat underpowered. Only stupid people leave off ECM when they could take it.

Not nearly all mechs that can fit ballistics have ballistics weapons. Again, this is a balanced option. It's not just a simple choice like ECM. Same thing applies for missiles and engines.

All of the things you listed have significant downsides, such that they must be weighed against other options. None of them are taken all the time, because sometimes the downsides outweigh the upsides. Not so for ECM.

Also, all the things that you listed are carefully balanced options for different mech variations. If a mech has a ballistic hard point, it gives up other hard points. If a mech variant can use a very large/fast engine, it has other deficiencies that balance it out. Not so for ECM. The COM-2D is just as good as any other commando, even without ECM. The RVN-3L was already easily the superior Raven, even without ECM.

[Pale Jackal]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

Most players using mechs that can fit JJ actually don't. This is because JJ are, if anything, somewhat underpowered. Only stupid people leave off ECM when they could take it.

Jump jets are not as powerful as ECM, but one ton of JJs is definitely worth it, for the tighter turn radius if nothing else. Also, even a small hop will mess up an opponent's aim. Spending more than a couple of tons on JJs is debatable, though.

Break ECM into two modules... making ECM cost 3 tons and 4 slots for all its effects would be a start.

And/or make BAP detect out to 270m. Maybe further, like 450m.

[IceCase88]

Dumbest argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue about the price that is one thing but arguing the small size makes it OP is really just illogical and stupid.

[WolvesX]

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Dumbest argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue about the price that is one thing but arguing the small size makes it OP is really just illogical and stupid.

Sorry for beeing an illogical stupid person. Size is totaly irrelevant, sorry I missed that.

Lets make the Atlas as BIG as the Commando then.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Dumbest argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue about the price that is one thing but arguing the small size makes it OP is really just illogical and stupid.

When a balancing factor in this game is weight and slots, it's a big part of any argument.

You have a finite amount of slots and tonnage available on every mech. So we make decisions on whether it's worth it to add a heatsink, or a jump jet, or an AMS.

With ECM there is no decision, you run it no matter what unless you are that one dude SIXSIXSIX who seems to think two heatsinks are AMAZING.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 03 March 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Targetloc]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 03 March 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

When a balancing factor in this game is weight and slots, it's a big part of any argument.

You have a finite amount of slots and tonnage available on every mech. So we make decisions on whether it's worth it to add a heatsink, or a jump jet, or an AMS.

With ECM there is no decision, you run it no matter what unless you are that one dude SIXSIXSIX who seems to think two heatsinks are AMAZING.

Because ECM is 1.5 tons.... but trolling is priceless.

[CrashieJ]

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Dumbest argument ever. Size is irrelevant. If you want to argue about the price that is one thing but arguing the small size makes it OP is really just illogical and stupid.

I can make 1,000,000 CBs in an hour, therefore potential winnings are near limitless, but there are only about 53 to 57 free slots in every chassis which is limited by "priority hardware".

Pricing is irrelevant when grinding is an option, the size/power ratio itself compared to other equipment is ONE of the many reasons why it is so overpowered.

besides, I don't see you coming up with any good ideas, why should you have the right to call someone stupid or illogical when you, yourself, have no answer to solve this problem.

[LordBraxton]

never add a silly random poll option we will all pick it

[IceCase88]

Size is absolutely irrelevant. Comparing BAP, TAG, NARC, and ECM together is comparing apples to oranges. They all have different roles and different functions. Comparing ECM in terms of weapons (i.e. the SL to AC20 comparison) is also comparing apples to oranges. The arguments are entirely illogical. Additionally, if you get into the argument of size and crits you are effectively limiting the mechs which can carry it. Size is absolutely irrelevant. I never said the increasing of the price of ECM is the best idea but it is entirely more relevant than size. Additionally, you do not need a large device to disrupt things. Just look at an image of a cell phone jammer compared to a cell phone for an example. Both are small devices.

Let's beat this dead horse some more. ECM has 3 counters through mechanical means (ECM, TAG, PPCs). 4 if you include component destruction. It only impedes the use of 2 weapons systems (LRMs, SSRMs) and only if you do not have TAG or ECM. You can still use any ballistic weapon, laser, PPC, and SRMs. It works as intended and according to TT (it is not functioning like angel ecm). PGI needs to work on the indirect firing of LRMs.

Again, size is irrelevant and a dumb, illogical argument. Using my cell phone and cell phone jammer example you can say a mech's computer system weighs 1.5 tons so an ECM unit is effectively disrupting a similar sized system. Again making size irrelevant.

[Shadowsword8]

hammerreborn, on 03 March 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

ECM, JJs, and modules are all ways to make certain mechs unique and offer unique advantages and disadvantages so the game doesn't become the same mechs with different looks.

Haven't 8v8 premades been more or less abandonned by teams because most of the mechs would be 3L or D-DC? Great diversity there...

[Targetloc]

Shadowsword8, on 03 March 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Haven't 8v8 premades been more or less abandonned by teams because most of the mechs would be 3L or D-DC? Great diversity there...

I think they've mostly been abandoned by people who don't like realizing they aren't as good as PUGstomping led them to believe.

[Ari Dian]

gavilatius, on 03 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

I can make 1,000,000 CBs in an hour, therefore potential winnings are near limitless, but there are only about 53 to 57 free slots in every chassis which is limited by "priority hardware".
...

47-51 max free slots. Unless you add the 6 slots from the engine, but this would be wrong. As you always need them and they are not free slots. Each mech has 47 free slots for whatever you want to equip. Plus one for each missing arm activator.


To all who say ECM is fine.
How often have you seen a mech, that could fit a ECM, without an ECM?
I would love to see some numbers from PGI. But my guess is 99% of all ECM able mechs use one. Heck, most choose the chassis because of the ECM slot over other variants that cant use it.
If this alone is not an indicator that it is to powerfull i dont know what else. Once a piece of equippment is so good that you have to use it no matter what, it becomes to overpowered.

In this case he is right. 1.5t is not equal to 1.5t anymore. If one item is so much better and dont allow any alternatives there is something wrong. PGI cant really change anything on the weight of the items. But they could change something on what these do. And something has to be done on this.

[Volthorne]

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Size is absolutely irrelevant. Comparing BAP, TAG, NARC, and ECM together is comparing apples to oranges. They all have different roles and different functions. Comparing ECM in terms of weapons (i.e. the SL to AC20 comparison) is also comparing apples to oranges. The arguments are entirely illogical. Additionally, if you get into the argument of size and crits you are effectively limiting the mechs which can carry it. Size is absolutely irrelevant. I never said the increasing of the price of ECM is the best idea but it is entirely more relevant than size. Additionally, you do not need a large device to disrupt things. Just look at an image of a cell phone jammer compared to a cell phone for an example. Both are small devices.

Let's beat this dead horse some more. ECM has 3 counters through mechanical means (ECM, TAG, PPCs). 4 if you include component destruction. It only impedes the use of 2 weapons systems (LRMs, SSRMs) and only if you do not have TAG or ECM. You can still use any ballistic weapon, laser, PPC, and SRMs. It works as intended and according to TT (it is not functioning like angel ecm). PGI needs to work on the indirect firing of LRMs.

Again, size is irrelevant and a dumb, illogical argument. Using my cell phone and cell phone jammer example you can say a mech's computer system weighs 1.5 tons so an ECM unit is effectively disrupting a similar sized system. Again making size irrelevant.

Dafuq did I just read?

[Rivqua]

Ari Dian, on 03 March 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

47-51 max free slots. Unless you add the 6 slots from the engine, but this would be wrong. As you always need them and they are not free slots. Each mech has 47 free slots for whatever you want to equip. Plus one for each missing arm activator.


To all who say ECM is fine.
How often have you seen a mech, that could fit a ECM, without an ECM?
I would love to see some numbers from PGI. But my guess is 99% of all ECM able mechs use one. Heck, most choose the chassis because of the ECM slot over other variants that cant use it.
If this alone is not an indicator that it is to powerfull i dont know what else. Once a piece of equippment is so good that you have to use it no matter what, it becomes to overpowered.

In this case he is right. 1.5t is not equal to 1.5t anymore. If one item is so much better and dont allow any alternatives there is something wrong. PGI cant really change anything on the weight of the items. But they could change something on what these do. And something has to be done on this.

It's not that you don't see 3Ls without ECM, if they couldn't fit ECM, you just wouldn't see Ravens,period, because the jenner does it much better with 6 MLs. The ECM is a buff to the Raven chassi.

My Stalker has BAP fitted, it requires it to do it's job. Even if It could fit ECM, it would have BAP fitted, because ECM would not help out in any way what so ever. So we should nerf BAP ?

Cmon, be reasonable. What does ECM do that "ruins" the game, it affects 1 weapon system (SSRM), and only that when it's around, and it can't be around all the time....

[WolvesX]

Volthorne, on 04 March 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Dafuq did I just read?

Yea. Its horrible. SIZE DOESN'T MATTER AND TONS ALSO DOESN'T MATTER! WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS???

Wow.