132 replies to this topic

[ObsidianSpectre]

Seriously everyone, just stop. The Raven 3L is not the problem. There've been a number of threads lately demanding nerfs for it, and it's the wrong target.

Think about it. 3 months ago, Ravens were rarely spotted. It was the Jenner everyone feared, and running a Raven just got your teammates to ask why you weren't in a Jenner. Ask yourselves, what changed that made the 3L start looking overpowered? What's the one change that happened that suddenly made them popular and so powerful on the battlefield?

This is an easy question, you should all get the correct answer.

I'm terrified that some developers might see all the threads asking for nerfs for the 3L and think "Oh hey, that's all we need to do, and then everything will be balanced!". Then they'll do it, and the problem won't be solved, and instead a bigger mess will be made of it. Next we'll have to deal with a bunch of threads demanding nerfs for the COM-2D. And after that, we'll need to nerf CDA-3Ms or SDR-5Ds, with extra complaints when they have JR7-D backup. And if the real problem ever does get fixed, then all those nerfs we piled on make all the affected mechs underpowered jokes.

What I'm saying is, please consider carefully what you target for nerfing.

[Jestun]

The 3L very much is a problem.

However, I don't think it's the mech itself but the combination of the speed, ECM & missile slots, along with lag shield.

Edited by Jestun, 03 March 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Fred013]

Not the Raven 3L. Streaks and ECM. Divert the Raven hatred to streaks and ECM.

There's nothing wrong with ravens. I love dems.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Y U no say Sherlock!
Ofc Raven is not problem.Problems are bad hitbox+lagshield+streaks+ECM.It does not matter on which light or medium they put ECM if it have enough speed to be lagshielded and missile slots for streaks.Untill they figure out how to fix it then it still be problem.

[Merky Merc]

Welp, if the hit boxes changes that have been... stated go into effect then it will no longer be an issue. Before ECM you were dumb to be in a non jenner, after the fix... only the decent light pilots will remain with any luck.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

As most the poster here agree, its not the mech its the broken mechanic. Just like the 1A.

[Thorn Hallis]

The Ravens need no nerf, the hitbox needs to be fixed.

[Gaan Cathal]

Gaan Cathal, on 03 March 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Streaks need some serious work, frankly. Bear in mind whatever is done to them needs to be scalable since we will have SSRM4/6 at some point.

Look at it this way:

Artemis IV: SRM upgrade, 1 Ton + 1 Crit/ Launcher, Tightens grouping
Streak: SRM upgrade, 0.5 Tons + 0 Crits/ 2 Missiles, Makes missiles homing

So for a SRM2, ArtIV is worse, and weighs more. For an SRM4, ArtIV is worse and weighs the same. For an SRM6, ArtIV is worse and finally weighs less - by a half ton, and still takes a crit slot. It's also worth noting that as a launcher gets more missiles, the spread dynamics mean the homing advantage is worth more.

If things go as is, I would need to find one whole half ton (that's a few points of armour on some redundant section) to upgrade the SRM6 on my 3L to an SSRM6 and not have to line up my shots for that 15 damage volley. Currently there's an argument for taking it over the SSRM2x2, in that you trade the lazymode not-needing-to-aim-ever for an extra 5 damage and not needing to reach all the way over to the 'J' key if there's another ECM mech nearby and it's 'only' an extra ton. (Think about that, actually. I pay a ton to do 15 damage I have to aim compared with 10 I don't.) For an extra half ton there would be no excuse at all for not upgrading to SSRM.

Once larger SSRM launchers come in, concentrated SSRM fire will entirely dictate engagements under 270m. The limiting factor of massed SRM fire at the moment is the need to aim and account for spread mechanics. SSRM will negate that, allowing full DPS to be maintained 100% of the time once in firing range.

TL:DR - SSRM are manifestly superior to SRM/SRM+ArtIV for less-through-to-negligibly-more tonnage investment.

Bad form to self-quote, I know. But I'm ****** if I'm typing it all out again. The biggest problem is Streak mechanics, the 3L just highlights the problem. ECM needs downtuning in other areas, but it's actually the interaction with Streaks that makes it 'OP' - fix Streaks and ECM will be far less of a problem, thus the mechs that carry it will do likewise.

That said, I'd like some incentive to use the 3L as the EWAR boat it was meant to be, and more combat effectiveness for the..uh..combat variants. Swapping the engine brackets would do a good job of that, IMO (if any chassis is proof that "X value above variant stock rating" is a bad idea, it's the Raven) - or at least let the 4X and 2X slot the 295, there's no reason to have them slower.

[Alistair Winter]

While the hitbox probably does need to be fixed, anyone who thinks it will make a big difference needs to play a Raven 2X or 4X and tell me how they perform. Did those hitboxes really save you?

Anyone who thinks Streaks are fine and ECM is the problem, try playing some games with the Raven 3L without streaks, and tell me how that went. You had speed, hitbox and ECM. Did you still wreak havoc? Or did you perhaps get eaten by other mechs with Streaks?

People complain that threads like these are still being made, but they should still be made as long as a large percentage of the players and PGI developers remain ignorant of the real problem.

[Lyrik]

Yup, fix the "hitboxes/lagshield" of the Raven 3L (and any other mech who enjoys it) and the raven will be ok. Still a challenge for other lights but at least it will be more killable ;-)

[John MatriX82]

Fred013, on 03 March 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Streaks and ECM. Divert the Raven hatred to streaks and ECM.

This. the real problem is how ecm works and why it has been placed on lights with heavy SSRM capability, but the problem wouldn't be that painful if the variants chosen to be ecm-able were those without missile hardpoints.

[danust]

When the President of the company says on a live twitch event they are very aware of the 3L problem, there is a problem. Hinted that there would indeed be a fix in the next patch-lag shield correction through state rewind- or soon after.

So very frustrating for a new player to be killed in this way and hard work, luck, and practice are little reward. Next patch and lights just might start acting like lights, and not like Atlai in the thick of a brawl with impunity.

The rest ECM SStreaks etc I can live with. New maps fix a lot of that.

[Calimaw]

3L = 3 Lasers, 2 Missile, ECM.

That's a pretty crazy amount of utilizable weaponry.
Figure in TAG for 1 of those lasers, and you have a real problem when they keep ECM on disrupt.

[Training Instructor]

Can I divert my hatred to the pilots instead?

If there is one thing that I truly savor in this world, it's hatred of other people.

[MoonUnitBeta]

ECM should not stack.
ECM should do less.
BAP should do more.
Streaks need a min turning radius and min range for tracking activation.

Game is now in working order.

[Gaan Cathal]

Calimaw, on 03 March 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

3L = 3 Lasers, 2 Missile, ECM.

That's a pretty crazy amount of utilizable weaponry.
Figure in TAG for 1 of those lasers, and you have a real problem when they keep ECM on disrupt.

JR7-D = 4 Lasers, 2 Missiles, JJ
JR7-F = 6 Lasers, JJ

COM-2D = 1 Laser, 3 Missiles, ECM

The 3L is (just about, now) on par with the Jenners except where broken Streak-ECM interactions come into play. The COM-2D has likewise joined the JR7-D/F in the ranks of 'viable light mechs' - again thanks to said broken mechanics. The other Raven variants are still junk compared with the Jenners, as are the other Commandos (at least they have a ten ton disadvantage as an excuse that might save them when tonnage matching happens).

If Streaks weren't several times as good as SRMs of the same size, there'd not be such a balance issue with being able to use them, and JR7-Ds with paired SRM4s would still be tearing it up.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 03 March 2013 - 03:29 AM.

[SgtMagor]

there lag, and warping all over the map is a big problem. I was in a drop and 3 raven were on the enemy team, they warped so bad, my game froze for a second, long enough for them to kill my mech. they cause so much lag that my mech is not even registering hits, just fall over dead

[Calimaw]

What is the disadvantage of a 3L?

[Gaan Cathal]

SgtMagor, on 03 March 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

there lag, and warping all over the map is a big problem. I was in a drop and 3 raven were on the enemy team, they warped so bad, my game froze for a second, long enough for them to kill my mech. they cause so much lag that my mech is not even registering hits, just fall over dead

Excessive warping of that sort is typically associated with one of three things:

- A Cryengine2 issue that has apparently been solved, this was the netcode fix of a few patches back
- Very high ping on the part of the other player: this was linked to the above, and the unscrupulous were artificially lagging themselves and using homing weapons to 'activate' the lagshield glitch, this still works to a degree, but not like it used to
- Very high ping or connection/client issues your end

Given that your game actually freezes, and the severity of lag-damage to yourself leads me to think that in your case it is largely number 3. What sort of ping do you generally run, and what kind of framerates do you get? Additionally, have you been suffering the 'freezes and must kill the process' crash? I've had that a few times and it's been associated with sudden freezes of a second or two.

[neviu]

dont nerf the raven, nerf the hitboxes that dont work,