497 replies to this topic

[Stone Profit]

Mackman, on 04 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I'll just refer you to your very own words, in which you strongly imply that SWTOR is P2W: "P2W? Go try SWTOR then get back to me. This is charity by comparison."

In that quote, it really looks like you are the one using opinions and not facts. Also, you must have forgotten to actually read all of the post that you quoted... here, I'll help you out a bit.

"The fact remains that however small the advantage is (and it's going to get bigger with every additional consumable), paying money gets you a legitimate, objectively measurable advantage that cannot be gotten without money, and is therefore P2W and absolute poison to something that hopes to be a competitive game."

That's a fact. It's a fact that the MC version offers you a clear advantage in only using 1 slot, and it's a fact that that advantage is going to get larger and clearer as they implement more consumables. That's not my opinion: It's a fact.

Ah see you read too much into what I say. By comparison, the parts of swtor which you must pay for make MWO pale in comparison. The flaw here is not in what I say, but in what you read into it. I am not responsible for what you hear, only for what I say.

[Dr Killinger]

Arkmaus, on 04 March 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

How so?

The C-Bill options are stackable.

Say I have a mech with 3 module slots. If I buy the 2 stackable coolant pods, I can then equip, say, 1 artillery consumable.

If I buy the level 3 coolant, I can then have the same coolant flush, and equip an artillery consumable AND an air strike consumable. That is an advantage. Even if it turns out that it's not a huge advantage, it's a step towards pay-to-win. This is them testing the waters, and it could lead to the gold ammo debacle that hit WoT.

I agree PGI need to make money, but doing it this way is not fair to the player base. Sell cosmetics and convenience, not power.

[Thirdstar]

Mackman, on 04 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I'll just refer you to your very own words, in which you strongly imply that SWTOR is P2W: "P2W? Go try SWTOR then get back to me. This is charity by comparison."

In that quote, it really looks like you are the one using opinions and not facts. Also, you must have forgotten to actually read all of the post that you quoted... here, I'll help you out a bit.

"The fact remains that however small the advantage is (and it's going to get bigger with every additional consumable), paying money gets you a legitimate, objectively measurable advantage that cannot be gotten without money, and is therefore P2W and absolute poison to something that hopes to be a competitive game."

That's a fact. It's a fact that the MC version offers you a clear advantage in only using 1 slot, and it's a fact that that advantage is going to get larger and clearer as they implement more consumables. That's not my opinion: It's a fact.

Don't mind him, he's just trolling to try to get the thread Kaetetoed. Just ignore him.

[QContinuum]

I think if you give good content then people will pay fort the extras just like they have been otherwise they wouldn't have earned those millions for the founders pack. Just because i'm willing to pay doesn't mean i want to have to pay to be able to be competitive. I think they have an ok model that shows it generates revenue. I think they should stick with the addage if it isn't broken don't fix it. Maybe they should concentrate more on the additions of mechs and gear. Get the player base up.. Since it's still beta work on the game and not the cash flow. Seems to me that the cash will flow if you make a good well balanced game that people enjoy playing. Seems like their are already formula for a good game you have to work to all kinds of people both the pugs and the serious who want to run leagues. You know i'll spend reall cash on premium time and the odd hero mech i want but if i have to pay for stand gear like a coolant module then i'll have issues. Well here's to them rethinking their plans and listening to people.. who will be paying.

[Stone Profit]

Tarman, on 04 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I'm not sure you do.

It's not equivalent. It's two for one to replicate the same ability, where module slots are very limited. Given a chassis with two open module slots, paying for modules increases your abilities over anything a freeplayer could throw together even with unlimited C-bills. You can run two separate T3 modules if you pony up, while to replicate just one of those module effects the freeplayer has to use both slots for a T1+T2.

So you can only have two modules if you pay for them... wait no thats not how it is. Fail on your part of understanding sir.

[Mackman]

Thirdstar, on 04 March 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Don't mind him, he's just trolling to try to get the thread Kaetetoed. Just ignore him.

Ah, gotcha. I think I would have figured that out in another post or two, but now I won't even bother. Thanks, dude!

[Tarman]

Thirdstar, on 04 March 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

Don't mind him, he's just trolling to try to get the thread Kaetetoed. Just ignore him.

So he IS the poostick. Thought so.

[Josef Nader]

Makes me all warm inside that my post has become the banner for fighting this nonsense.

[Moromillas]

Well said.

I've said it before in other threads, and I think it bears repeating. If they do end up going the pay to win route and it does go live, it's not the sort of thing I can get behind.

It's a shame that some people just don't get it, and think it's all QQ's.

[Tarman]

Moromillas, on 04 March 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Well said.

I've said it before in other threads, and I think it bears repeating. If they do end up going the pay to win route and it does go live, it's not the sort of thing I can get behind.

It's a shame that some people just don't get it, and think it's all QQ's.

Some people are too bittervet to even know they're not real mechpilots, let alone have the power to dial out three steps to see the big picture.

[armyof1]

Oh the splatcats with three MC coolants, wtf are the devs thinking seriously. It really feels like they've stopped caring about the gameplay and gone pretty much the moneygrabbing route. I really feel for all the founders of this game who invested and believed in the devs only to get this shoved in their face. If this will not be retracted then it will be the first step to turn MWO into a P2W game when you look back one year from now.

Edited by armyof1, 04 March 2013 - 10:53 PM.

[Primetimex]

First it's coolant flush, then next may be an MC only Repair and Re-arm Modules: Tier 1: 20% repair and re-arm, Tier 2: 35% and Tier 3: 50%.

I enjoy MW by my mech piloting skill and understanding the game nuances and using terrain for advantage - NOT by dumping dollars and C-Bills for something as cheap as "coolant flush" in order to beat the other player.

For those who think it is QQ you obviously probably have no understanding that a heat reduction can turn a game around VERY quickly and kill off any competitive play.

Those PUGgers and casual players probably won't want to play too much money - since they are casual and it is a free to play after all - and BLAM they run across an organised group who are hardcore play day in day out etc and are stacked up to the max with P2W modules - what do you think is going to happen then?

Edited by Primetimex, 04 March 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[red stapler]

Josef Nader, on 04 March 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

Makes me all warm inside that my post has become the banner for fighting this nonsense.

It sounds like you could use a coolant flush!

[Ignatz22]

Noobzorz, on 04 March 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Yup. Definitely in agreement here.

It is a central axiom of competitive gaming that it should be fair. This violates that axiom clearly.

The other thing that is really not up for debate is the empirically demonstrated tendency for smaller P2W advantages leading to "spend money to be in contention at all." This is clearly evident in basically every such game that's been around for long enough. Consider Battlefield Heroes, Age of Empires Online, Crossfire, or World of Tanks.

This really does only go one direction, and if you are ok with this move, it's just because you don't know enough about it to hate it yet.

I read the Devs post, and they mentioned consumables were purchaseable with either MC or CBills.
Still,....

Ok, I didn't play those games, so I DON'T know about what will come. What I do know is that PGI is a company of folks trying to make a living and with shareholders trying to make a dividend. How many posts have featured the refrain that the respondent won't PAY for this or that but wants more programming, more maps, more testing and more mech choices, more Solaris options and more, well, EVERYTHING. But no one wants to PAY for it. People are paying for cheats to hack MWO now, so obviously Pay to Win is already an option. I understand World of Tanks allowed the purchase of better upgrades, better chassis and options; so what? Founders bought Mechs we newbies didn't have a chance to get, so playing before WE showed up allowed YOU folks to get the enhanced CBills and XP counts while WE had to pay for Hero mechs to get the same advantage.
Ok, life isn't fair.
Fine, it's just a game, but if you're THAT WORRIED about how SOMEONE ELSE plays, I guess it's MORE than "just a game" to you, and you'll be queing up for any advanced consumables that allow you to retain your Leaderboard Status.
We'll see.

In the LORE, the Clan romped rampant over the Inner Sphere; I suppose all Clan Mechs in MWO will have to violate this and be equal to the Inner Sphere mechs we have now?
How about a handicap system, so good players only play equally good players in their league? ELO defaults to mismatching when no one else is around, but how about benchmark cutoff so we noobs don't have to be paired with more experienced or serious pilots while we feebly try to gain basic skills and experience? How about the gamers here who already HAVE the Elite perks being denied those when they go up against newer players grinding the Basic modules in the "other" variants?
Most comments I see are that I brought the wrong mech or lack the skill/experience to use it.
"DUH.". I'm a NEW PLAYER.
I KNOW IT'S NOT AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD.
IT'S A GAME.

[XIRUSPHERE]

Pay to compete means MWO will have absolutely zero legitimacy as an e-sport. If you accept gold items into the game which skew balance towards paying for an advantage you have made a playing field that will never be a sport. I see MWO end game as being no more creative than WOT end game with these kinds of developments and that is just sad.

Mech warrior deserves a hell of a lot better than being turned into some arcade style pseudo simulator where everyone with c-bills or MC to burn can introduce hugely disruptive mechanics into matches at whim. I want a simulator with a feel of mech warrior steeped in lore. I don't want COD with slow clunky mechs where I pay for kill steak type bonuses with credits or out of my wallet, It's ridiculous.

[Zaptruder]

At this rate, they may as well turn clan mechs into pay 2 rent machines.

[QuantumButler]

I wonder how long before they sweep this topic under the katetoa rug too.

[PropagandaWar]

Im actually on the same side with you guys on this one and I generally defend PGI with a vengance. If they let you buy coolant in bulk with MC or permanant that would be fine but this Tier2 for c-bills Tier 3 for money is crap is not cool at all. I spend my money but I wont buy any consumables especiallly if they give me and advantage with MC its not right.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 04 March 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[QuantumButler]

PropagandaWar, on 04 March 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Im actually on the same side with you guys on this one and I'll defend PGI with a vengance. If they let you by coolant in bulk with MC or permanant that would be fine but this Tier2 for c-bills Tier 3 for money is crap is not cool at all. I spend my money but I wont buy any consumables especiallly if they give me and advantage with MC its not right.

One of us, one of us!

[Noobzorz]

Terror Teddy, on 04 March 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

I'll wait for patch and then playtest and then judge.

Don't. This idea has been playtested in several hundred F2P games to come before, always with the same result: escalation, and eventual destruction of the playerbase.

This isn't something like the Arcade in StarCraft II (which, it turns out, the preemptive naysayers were right about, but that's not relevant for this example). This is something that has been done literally hundreds of times before, and it's always the same story. "We aren't going to become P2W" (they do), "it isn't going to escalate" (it does), and "we will continue to cater to our large and healthy player base (they don't and it isn't).

P2W is a known entity, and while it is occasionally good news for publishers (emphasis on the occasional bit; seriously, do they not see how much more money Korean F2P publishers make than they do?), it's always bad news for players.

Edited by Noobzorz, 04 March 2013 - 11:09 PM.